daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old March 17th, 2010, 01:28 AM   #2241
Ariel74
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Frankfurt am Main
Posts: 414
Likes (Received): 1

Well, there goes the maglev hope again. As far as that particular line is concerned, as soon as MOV got its construction work of conventional HSR line rolling, maglev was pretty much out of the question...
Ariel74 no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old March 17th, 2010, 04:30 AM   #2242
highway35
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 33
Likes (Received): 1

The HSR line from Shanghai to Hangzhou was started last year and will be completed by October this year, a record time even by Chinese standard. The conspiracy theory that has been around says that MOR had planned the fast construction schedule purposefully to preempt the Shanghai-Hangzhou Mag-Lev line. I don't know if it's true or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
Well, there goes the maglev hope again. As far as that particular line is concerned, as soon as MOV got its construction work of conventional HSR line rolling, maglev was pretty much out of the question...
highway35 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 17th, 2010, 05:31 AM   #2243
highway35
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 33
Likes (Received): 1

China has been working on some home-grown mag-lev technologies and even has some experimental lines. But these are all low-speed mag-lev technologies and probably are not good enough to build HSR.

I wouldn't be surprised if the radiation and noise pollution had been overblown, but does it really matter now for the Shanghai-Hangzhou line? This line would cut through dense middle-class residential areas in the nation's biggest city where the property price is highest. Mere fear would drive down property price and would be met with very strong existence as had happened before.

Even if China were finally able to indigentize substantially, the cost would still be much higher than the conventional HSR. It would be politically unacceptable besides being economically in-viable. Right now, MOR are calling many of these new HSRs as "250 kmh or above" when in fact they're all unambiguously 350 kmh class HSR to avoid public attention and controversy. It should be pointed out that when the Wuhan-Guangzhou and Zhengzhou-Xian HSR construction started back in 2005, they were all claimed by MOR as "250 kmh and above" lines. Many of the HSR lines under construction had been upgraded to the 350 kmh class last year amid government's stimulus program. Now that the government starts to tighten, MOR is keeping a low profile ...

Finally, I believe low-speed mag-lev still has a future in China. They would be mostly used for metro systems. Beijing is planning for one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
I see. Do you know anything about the state of indigenization of the Maglev technology used in Shanghai? There is very little discussion of it on the internet, compared with CRH2 and CRH3. One reason this is relevant is that, from what I read, radiation and noise pollution are not as serious a problem as they have been publicized, the chief argument against it being cost. But if China succeeds to completely indigenize the technology, the costs might be significantly reduced, thereby making a maglev line from Beijing to Guangzhou, for example, an extremely interesting possibility (imagine 4-5 hours from Beijing to Guangzhou!)
highway35 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 17th, 2010, 06:02 AM   #2244
urbanfan89
Registered User
 
urbanfan89's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,502
Likes (Received): 67

Two billion yuan in funds destined for the Beijing-Shanghai HSR have been misused , of which 1.32 billion was used in property development.

http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2010-03-17/095519881566.shtml
urbanfan89 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 17th, 2010, 08:46 AM   #2245
yaohua2000
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 453
Likes (Received): 7

Construction work of Shenyang-Dandong and Dandong-Dalian lines started in Liaoning

http://news.xinhuanet.com/fortune/20...t_13187052.htm

March 17, 2010

Shenyang-Dandong Line
Length: 207 km
Max. speed: 250 km/h
Due in 2014

Dandong-Dalian Line
Length: 296 km
Max. speed: 200 km/h
Due in 2013
yaohua2000 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 17th, 2010, 03:04 PM   #2246
makita09
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,536
Likes (Received): 92

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
Typical knee-jerking reaction from you. It's not about what I prefer. It's about a sensible trade-off between highspeed and the environment. Apparently, if the chinese academics quoted in the article are right, 350km/h trains consume more than twice as much energy to operate compared with 250km/h trains. Coupled with the fact that China mostly burns coal to generate electricity, this surely gives reason for pause, especially for shorter lines like that connecting Tianjin and Beijing.
And the new 360km/h AGV uses the same amount of energy as the previous generation did at 300km/h.

What you have here is a basic fact of physics - the energy requirement increases exponentially with speed. This is true, but it certainly is not the whole story. The efficiency of the design has a significant effect as the AGV example proves.

The environmental question surrounding HSR is indeed important, but I don't think words from a Chinese press officer are a particularly good way to be informed about it.
makita09 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 17th, 2010, 03:10 PM   #2247
Ariel74
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Frankfurt am Main
Posts: 414
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post

The environmental question surrounding HSR is indeed important, but I don't think words from a Chinese press officer are a particularly good way to be informed about it.
Except they were not words from a "chinese press officer". Read the link from my post.
Ariel74 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 17th, 2010, 03:23 PM   #2248
Ariel74
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Frankfurt am Main
Posts: 414
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
And the new 360km/h AGV uses the same amount of energy as the previous generation did at 300km/h.

What you have here is a basic fact of physics - the energy requirement increases exponentially with speed. This is true, but it certainly is not the whole story. The efficiency of the design has a significant effect as the AGV example proves.
As you seem to recognize, there is some fundamental tension between speed and energy-consumption; improving energy efficiency ameliorates the tension, does not eliminate it. So as far as that goes, the AGV example is neither here nor there. As I said, what would solve the problem for china fundamentally, is to change the source of its energy generation. But that will take a long time, which means the problem will be present in the interim.

Apropos AGV though - a different topic as I said - I wonder what detailed comparisons of it with the up-to-date models by other manufacturers in terms of energy consumption look like. After all, AGV is really the French playing catchup with the Germans and Japanese, as TGV technology is at least 10-15 years older than those used in Velaro or N700 for example.
Ariel74 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 17th, 2010, 03:40 PM   #2249
Mr Egg
Registered User
 
Mr Egg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 7
Likes (Received): 0

i think high speed rail is just another property development project, rolled out on massive scale in china...
Mr Egg no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 17th, 2010, 04:57 PM   #2250
foxmulder
Registered User
 
foxmulder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,135
Likes (Received): 381

Quote:
Originally Posted by yaohua2000 View Post
http://news.xinhuanet.com/fortune/20...t_13187052.htm

March 17, 2010

Shenyang-Dandong Line
Length: 207 km
Max. speed: 250 km/h
Due in 2014

Dandong-Dalian Line
Length: 296 km
Max. speed: 200 km/h
Due in 2013
I asked this question in mainland forum too, is there an updated map for HSR projects anyone can post?
foxmulder no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 17th, 2010, 06:20 PM   #2251
NCT
Not Cwite There
 
NCT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Shanghai, London, Nottingham
Posts: 6,204
Likes (Received): 1766

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
As you seem to recognize, there is some fundamental tension between speed and energy-consumption; improving energy efficiency ameliorates the tension, does not eliminate it. So as far as that goes, the AGV example is neither here nor there. As I said, what would solve the problem for china fundamentally, is to change the source of its energy generation. But that will take a long time, which means the problem will be present in the interim.
Energy generation is an entirely different kettle of fish, not really relevant to HSR is it?

And I tell you why 350km/h is needed - without the significant speed advantage more people would chose motoring and aviation, which most certainly would use much more energy.
NCT no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 17th, 2010, 06:44 PM   #2252
CarlosBlueDragon
CarlosRedDragon
 
CarlosBlueDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Beijing/Shanghai/Guangzhou/HK
Posts: 1,848
Likes (Received): 678

I has been Beijing - Tianjin,

I taken CRH train from Tianjin to Beijing , speed about 320km/h and 25min (normal winter +2degree)
But
from Beijing to Tianjin, Speed about 245km/h and 31min (got snow -4degree)

Why Not same??
__________________
||CHINA|||
说:
> 同一个世界
> 同一个做夢
> 同一个中国
(同一个北京)(同一个上海)(同一个天津)(同一个广州)(同一个深圳)(同一个重庆)(同一个杭州)(同一个南京)(同一个沈陽)(同一个武汉)(同一个成都)(同一个長春)(同一个长沙)(同一个苏州)(同一个无锡)(同一个扬州)(同一个西安)(同一个吉林)(同一个青島)(同一个大连)(同一个厦门)(同一个潮州)(同一个高州)(同一个香港)(同一个澳門)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I LoVe ChInA
CarlosBlueDragon no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 17th, 2010, 07:09 PM   #2253
UD2
A very cool person
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,294
Likes (Received): 31

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlosBlueDragon View Post
I has been Beijing - Tianjin,

I taken CRH train from Tianjin to Beijing , speed about 320km/h and 25min (normal winter +2degree)
But
from Beijing to Tianjin, Speed about 245km/h and 31min (got snow -4degree)

Why Not same??
The first train that runs on each day operate at a slower speed.

Did you happen to catch that first train?
__________________
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed" - President Eisenhower
UD2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 17th, 2010, 07:32 PM   #2254
Ariel74
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Frankfurt am Main
Posts: 414
Likes (Received): 1

read my replies below

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
Energy generation is an entirely different kettle of fish, not really relevant to HSR is it?

Are you here to police people's opinions about what the correct answer to an HSR-related issue is? The HSR-related issue, raised by some chinese academics, not by me, was the trade-off between energy consumption, which is bound up with CO2 emission given the current condition in China, and train-speed. What if one happens to think the ultimate response to that issue does not mention "HSR"?

Or are you perhaps of the opinion, like many posters here apparently are, that the only HSR-related issues, at least when it comes to China, are celebratory in nature? I am sorry I don't share that view.


And I tell you why 350km/h is needed - without the significant speed advantage more people would chose motoring and aviation, which most certainly would use much more energy.

Don't tell me that. If you read my original post, rather than only the rabid and ad hominem responses to it, you'd know I have never said such a thing (e.g. 350km/h is or is not needed).

Ariel74 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 17th, 2010, 09:58 PM   #2255
foxmulder
Registered User
 
foxmulder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,135
Likes (Received): 381

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
By the way, here is a chinese news article about an internal debate in China over whether 350km/h and higher speeds are really worth it, given that they have disproportionally large CO2 emissions. The key data cited in the article include:

i) compared with 250km/h, 350km/h trains emit more than twice CO2 per passenger;

ii) the construction process of HSR, given its larger requirement of steel and concrete, represents a high source of emission;

Clearly, even in China itself there are some sober reflections about the net benefits of super high speed railways. Ultimately though, China's environmental problem comes from the role of coal in its electricity generation.
This is your original post. As I highlighted above you clearly state (as saying "even") that you think high speed railways do not have net benefits.

Now, you are arguing in a very aggressive way (you even referred me as "dog", mods really should have done something about that) to anyone who points very solid arguments.

Tell us what China needs to do then for moving people? High speed rail is the obvious best solution for China.

If you want to talk about coal dependency of China, this is definitely not the suitable topic.
foxmulder no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2010, 12:45 AM   #2256
Ariel74
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Frankfurt am Main
Posts: 414
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
you are arguing in a very aggressive way
That's a magnificent display of a fine sense of irony.

If you cannot distinguish pointing out a particular downside of something and the need for reflection vs. wholeheartedly rejecting that thing, and above all do not know how to conduct a discussion without immediately getting personal, then there is simply no point for me to engage you. You will just have to excuse me for ignoring you.
Ariel74 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2010, 01:55 AM   #2257
foxmulder
Registered User
 
foxmulder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,135
Likes (Received): 381



No answer again

And everyone sees who is bringing down the quality of the discussion.

Here is examples of your input to this topic:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
You really do have serious cognitive dissonance

you do seem to need help with English as well

I will leave you to people of your own league, logically and linguistically speaking

No logical person can engage with such swiftness of movement in argument

I am not here to be your grammar tutor nor to refresh your logic, so I will let that pass.

So why the wiggling? To save face?

I've pretty much given up hope on you

your anti-rightist campaign style instinctive vitriol-spouting

Stop barking like a dog

Are you here to police people's opinions

rabid and ad hominem responses
What a nice input to this great thread. And please not only me but ignore whole skyscraper forum. Mods should have taken care of you by now.
foxmulder no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2010, 02:42 AM   #2258
makita09
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,536
Likes (Received): 92

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
Except they were not words from a "chinese press officer". Read the link from my post.
Pedant.

It really doesn't matter what the precise job title is. A first year physics student could have worked the information out that you quoted as if it had come from Einstein.

Now will you please shut up. Your witterings are not the insightful deconstructions that you think they are. You have a chip on your shoulder, get over yourself.
makita09 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2010, 02:44 AM   #2259
Ariel74
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Frankfurt am Main
Posts: 414
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by highway35 View Post
The HSR line from Shanghai to Hangzhou was started last year and will be completed by October this year, a record time even by Chinese standard. The conspiracy theory that has been around says that MOR had planned the fast construction schedule purposefully to preempt the Shanghai-Hangzhou Mag-Lev line. I don't know if it's true or not.
Interesting. The HSR connection from Shanghai to Hangzhou is part of the Shanghai-Kunming HSR line, isn't it? That line is scheduled to open in 2014 (given that it is one of the eight lines forming the backbone of the HSR network planned, its construction would have to be prioritized anyhow), and that time frame is anyway early enough to make a parallel construction of a maglev line look silly, without the MOR having to deliberately move up the construction schedule, no?
Ariel74 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2010, 02:53 AM   #2260
Ariel74
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Frankfurt am Main
Posts: 414
Likes (Received): 1

well....

Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
Pedant.

a press official has no political power nor authority of any kind. The person raising the concern, according to the article, does have such authority.

It really doesn't matter what the precise job title is. A first year physics student could have worked the information out that you quoted as if it had come from Einstein.

You simply miss the point - and with what self-confidence! To begin with, you cannot have arrived at the data unless you have concrete information about the designs of rolling stocks in China. Second, part of the point of the news article is that there is a political awareness of the issue.


Now will you please shut up. Your witterings are not the insightful deconstructions that you think they are. You have a chip on your shoulder, get over yourself.

Is the madness catching up with you too, and itching to shout over other people instead of trying to read and respond calmly without projecting your own emotions into everything? I don't know what chip you are talking about. I am doing my best to tamper the madness here, bubbling over in all directions.

Ariel74 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
china, high speed train, rail, tgv

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium