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Old April 9th, 2010, 06:14 PM   #2321
chornedsnorkack
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Originally Posted by hkhui View Post
Is there any hope for more maglev use in China, except the one from Shanghai-Hangzhou? Since the maglevs cannot be used on conventional tracks, I find it hard to see where else it can be used.
Logically, somewhere where most passengers are getting off anyway and few want to continue with the same train.

Pudong is a very good terminus. Tip of peninsula, airport - everyone is getting off and no one wants to go by conventional railway onwards. But what should the other end be? Longyang Road is far in outskirts of Shanghai....
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Old April 9th, 2010, 06:36 PM   #2322
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Old April 10th, 2010, 03:59 AM   #2323
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"Learnt"...

Transrapid is even more screwed now. Their only customer bought the train to copy the technology.
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Old April 10th, 2010, 04:08 AM   #2324
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"Learnt"...

Transrapid is even more screwed now. Their only customer bought the train to copy the technology.
Has it been copied from Transrapid?
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Old April 10th, 2010, 06:21 AM   #2325
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Tech transfer, it was part of the agreement when Shanghai became Transrapid's first customer. China was bound to produce its own version. The Germans aren't complaining. They are a supplier for some the key components used in this new train.
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Old April 10th, 2010, 06:28 AM   #2326
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What kind of train is this?
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Old April 10th, 2010, 10:13 AM   #2327
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A magnetic levitation train. Or Maglev for short.

Where has you been for the past 10 years?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglev_(transport)
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Old April 12th, 2010, 07:19 AM   #2328
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Maglev runs into friction

By Qian Yanfeng (China Daily)
Updated: 2010-04-12

Residents are angry over line, but experts hail it as a 'green' alternative. Qian Yanfeng reports from Shanghai.

As Li Qingwei sat down to pen a letter of protest over the expansion of Shanghai's magnetic levitation (maglev) rail link, he had a strange sense of deja vu. He and thousands of others had fought, and won, this battle once before.

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This photo taken in January shows a worker at a section of the Shanghai-Hangzhou high speed railway construction site. The maglev will be far more expensive yet only 10 minutes faster than the high speed rail. LI PENG / FOR CHINA DAILY

The project, which involves extending the line to Hangzhou, capital of neighboring Zhejiang province, was shelved two years ago after residents in Shanghai took to the streets to show their disapproval. But the plans appear to be back on the table thanks to central government efforts to boost high-speed rail travel across the country. Officials at the Ministry of Railways were tight-lipped on the stalled maglev project until last month when they announced the extension had won approval from the National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC), the nation's top economic planning body. The news caused a stir among the millions of residents who live along the proposed route, which prompted authorities in both cities to insist there is no imminent timetable for construction as feasibility studies are still ongoing.

Yet builders at a construction site told Li some preliminary work has already been done. Several media organizations also reported that a parcel of land has been earmarked for a maglev station at the new terminal at Shanghai Hongqiao Airport. "We wrote to the municipal government for confirmation on whether construction on part of the maglev line had already started at the expo site, but they only told a press conference there's no timetable for the project. They are not answering our question," said Li, 54, a former computer salesman. The Shanghai-Hangzhou maglev link is one of many high-speed rail projects in the pipeline, with at least 10,000 km of track now under construction, according to Ministry of Railways figures.

In its latest rail development plan, the government is aiming for an 18,000-km network (including the Shanghai-Hangzhou maglev) by 2020. However, although welcomed by rail experts and fueled largely by the State Council's 4-trillion-yuan ($586 billion) stimulus package, the expansion of high-speed travel has met some opposition. In the past 12 months, there have been protests over the Guangzhou-Hong Kong and Shanghai-Hangzhou links (the latter opens in October and will run alongside the maglev), as well as complaints the newly opened Wuhan-Guangzhou service is too expensive for average customers.

Across the world, maglev is one of the more exciting yet controversial technologies being touted as the future of rail travel. With the use of sophisticated electromagnets, trains are suspended about 1 cm above a single rail to create a frictionless system. Services between Shanghai Pudong International Airport and the city's Longyang Road station - the first commercially operated maglev link - travel at speeds of up to 431 km/h. The route, which in a car would take at least 45 minutes, takes the maglev just 8 minutes. The extension project would take the line up to 200 km, starting at Pudong airport in the east, going through Hongqiao airport in the west, and then going on to Hangzhou. Travel between the two cities would take just 30 minutes, a third of the time it takes regular services.

Costs cause concern


Although officials in both cities hail the plan as an opportunity to strengthen economic cooperation, residents close to the proposed track say their concerns about noise and radiation pollution - the reasons behind protests in 2008 - have still not been answered. People also questioned the logic of having two high-speed rail links between the same cities, especially as the maglev will be far more expensive yet only 10 minutes faster. However, the escalating costs and lack of transparency in how taxpayers' money is spent is fueling some ardent opposition. The authorities are looking at an estimated bill of 22 billion yuan, while analysts say the Pudong maglev line, which has received 10 billion yuan in government funds, has yet to make a profit.

Critics cited the reaction to the Wuhan-Guangzhou high-speed link, which opened late last year to a chorus of complaints from poor migrant workers - the majority rely on China's rail network during the annual Spring Festival holidays - that tickets are "too expensive", the service is "unnecessary" and that many cheaper, slower services had been cancelled. (Officials in Guangzhou, capital of Guangdong province, recently said trains on the high-speed like are running at 70-percent capacity).

"I can't understand why we would allow such a large amount of public funds to be used for a money-losing machine that still does not have sufficient market demand," said Hou Xiaogang, who lives 25 meters from the proposed maglev route in Shanghai's Minhang district. "As taxpayers, we need to know where our money goes, but there seems to be no reliable information. "Although the Ministry of Railways confirmed the (maglev) project has been approved, local authorities say it is still under feasibility studies. The official responses (to the public) have been rather murky and obscure, sparking speculation the government might be pushing ahead with the project yet keeping the public in the dark."

Sun Zhang, a Tongji University professor who is an expert on Chinese railways and a passionate proponent of maglev, backed high-speed links as a way for the government to grow the economy through investment in infrastructure. "For a country with 1.3 billion people and an economy growing at about 8 percent every year, the need for transport and speed seems obvious. Just compare China and Germany: Germany is one-27th of the size of China but its railway network is 13.5 times longer than ours," he said. "People are questioning why China insists on introducing maglev lines while countries like Germany and Japan doesn't. If you look at China's sheer size, you'll know why. There just needs to be further agreement on the best way forward." As China now does not rely entirely on imports and can produce parts needed for maglev lines, experts say the cost of manufacturing them is only 1.5 times that of high-speed lines. "With the extension of the Pudong line, it could also help make better use of the current resources by taking passengers to a wider range of destinations and possibly reduce its deficit," said Sun. He admitted there was an "affordability" issue. "The problem is China's economic development is not being matched by a rise in people's incomes," he added.

Yin Lu, a logistics analyst with Beijing-based Analysis Points Associated Consultants, agreed and said: "Trains are by far the most popular form of travel for the great majority who go back home (at Chinese New Year), so therefore they should be cheap and affordable. The government might consider subsidies for people if they want to promote high-speed travel." Confidence in the Shanghai government's handling of the maglev situation was dented two years ago, said Hou, because both the project plan and environmental assessment report were posted for public opinion on "less popular" websites, which meant they went largely unseen by those affected. Li, too, questioned the lack of transparency and said taking to the streets in protest again is still an option, but would be the last resort. "It's a long and hard fight requiring wisdom and consistency," he said. "Luckily today we have many public means, like the Internet, where we can express our views. The problem is, even if we take prompt and legal means to voice our disagreements, there seems to be little progress in the official information disclosure."

Officials with authorities in Shanghai and Hangzhou were unavailable for comment. "The government should open up more information to the public to build their confidence in its system, especially with investment projects in which residents have the right to knowledge," said Yu Hai, a sociologist at Fudan University. "They should also refrain from pursuing economic development at the cost of public interests. Speedy decisions are the last thing we want in the case of the maglev project."

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Construction workers survey work so far on the Hangzhou section of the Shanghai-Hangzhou high-speed rail link. LI PENG/FOR CHINA DAILY

Threat to air industry?

If the maglev route goes as planned, Hou Xiaogang's apartment building will be right next to the maglev line as the proposed buffer zone is only 22.5 meters from the track. In contrast, the buffer zone along the Pudong line is nearly 200 meters, he said. A report by Caijing Magazine in 2007 quoted an insider from the government as saying the narrow buffer zone was due to the soaring cost of house demolition. "It is wrong to jump to the conclusion that electromagnetic radiation doesn't harm the human body outside such a narrow buffer zone," said Hou, who is a mechanic. "We need years, if not decades of research, especially when we are dealing with a large project that might affect the lives of millions." However, Sun said any suggestion maglev trains are radioactive dangers is "groundless". "Experiments have shown the electromagnetic radiation of maglev trains is minimal compared with what is emitted by electronic appliances. Onboard, the electromagnetic radiation is only one-fifth of that from a color television," he said. Nor are they noisier than conventional trains, as the airborne noise level from a maglev traveling 400 km/h is similar to that of a high-speed train traveling 300 km/h, he said.

In fact, maglev services could even be good for the environment, said Sun. Although the communities who live beside them may not been keen on the speed, experts believe maglev technology is a green alternative to short-haul flights, much to the chagrin of Liu Shaoyong, China Eastern Airlines general manager, who recently predicted high-speed road and rail links could steal up to 30 percent of all airline passengers. "They run on electric power that could be produced from renewable energy, while planes burn fossil fuels that are not sustainable," said railways expert Sun.

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Last edited by ANR; April 12th, 2010 at 07:21 AM. Reason: minor corrections
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Old April 12th, 2010, 01:29 PM   #2329
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"People also questioned the logic of having two high-speed rail links between the same cities, especially as the maglev will be far more expensive yet only 10 minutes faster."

How can the maglev to Hangzhou possibly be justified?
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Old April 12th, 2010, 02:51 PM   #2330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pearl_river View Post
"People also questioned the logic of having two high-speed rail links between the same cities, especially as the maglev will be far more expensive yet only 10 minutes faster."

How can the maglev to Hangzhou possibly be justified?
Prestige. It gives the city (or cities) an aura. The return is not merely economical. That's why I believe people who complain about the usage of funds and the first stretch not repaying itself yet are missing the point by a substantial margin.
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Old April 12th, 2010, 03:37 PM   #2331
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The mentioned difference of 10 minutes in trip time is not explained in any way, there is no reference to the calculation. So what is it worth?

It could be some nonsense based on a theoretical max. speed of 350 km/h for a train and 500 km/h for a maglev on a 200 km distance.
200 [km] / 350 [km/h] * 60 [min/h] = ~34 [min] for the train
200 [km] / 500 [km/h] * 60 [min/h] = 24 [min] for the maglev
=> ~10 minutes difference

But does it take into account:
* time for acceleration to individual maximum speed (longer time for the train, even though that it's max speed is lower)?
* the number of stops on the route of the lines?

The maglev routing is still in feasibility study, it should be something like Pudong International Airport - Longyang road - Expo site - Hongqiao International Airport - Intermediate Station - Hangzhou.

But journalists already know about a time difference of 10 minutes on that route?
Interesting, really.
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Old April 12th, 2010, 09:39 PM   #2332
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I wonder whether the time comparison (10min difference) is correct or not.
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Old April 13th, 2010, 02:49 AM   #2333
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The Shanghai-Hangzhou high speed rail is just a section of the much longer Shanghai-Nanning (or is it Kunming) line, which is a part of the national high speed rail network. The proposed maglev connection between Shanghai and Hangzhou is a regional express line linking the two giant cities. I don't think they overlap in function. When the Shanghai-Hangzhou-Nanning line is completed, trains headed for Shanghai will probably be full by the time it reaches Hangzhou, leaving very little compacity for Hangzhou-Shanghai commuters. On reverse commute, most passengers leaving Shanghai won't have Hangzhou as the final destination. Given the large population and popularity of the two cities, a second high speed link needed. Building the maglev link will not be a waste of resources. Considering how fast China is urbanizing and growing, I say just build the maglev link.
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Old April 13th, 2010, 03:00 AM   #2334
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The Shanghai-Hangzhou-Kunming line is not the only high speed rail line on that corridor, and not all trains on that corridor will be running the whole way. The "classic" Shanghai-Hangzhou line has already been upgraded and expanded to a maximum speed of 250 km/h, and there is another parallel Shanghai-Hangzhou HSR under construction, dedicated to more local passengers. This means without the maglev link, there will be three fast and frequent railway lines between the two cities. A fourth one which cannot interline and which is more expensive than those three (especially seeing that Chinese people will not pay double in order to save 10 minutes) makes no sense. The maglev was planned to be a showcase so that Transrapid technology can be used for the nationwide HSR system, but the showcase motive has long died.

The entire line was promised to be completed in time for the 2010 World Expo, and since this is China you expect them to move mountains to fulfil that promise. The fact that construction isn't starting any time soon, and the fact that NIMBYs are able to stop the project (and remember this *is* a dictatorship which gets away with whatever it wants), suggests that the Hangzhou extension will always exist on paper.
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Old April 13th, 2010, 04:06 AM   #2335
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and the fact that NIMBYs are able to stop the project (and remember this *is* a dictatorship which gets away with whatever it wants)
A bit contradictory don't you think so?
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Originally Posted by urbanfan89 View Post
suggests that the Hangzhou extension will always exist on paper.
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Old April 13th, 2010, 04:46 AM   #2336
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I think what he writes makes sense. This project has been stopped by NIMBYs before (despite the fact that the gvt basically don't have to listen to complaints) which indicates that the authorities aren't too eager to get this one going.

At least that's how I interpreted it.
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Old April 13th, 2010, 04:54 AM   #2337
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I think what he writes makes sense. This project has been stopped by NIMBYs before (despite the fact that the gvt basically don't have to listen to complaints) which indicates that the authorities aren't too eager to get this one going.

At least that's how I interpreted it.
If a project has been stopped by NIMBYs then it means this cannot be a dictatorship, and viceversa. Sounds easy to me.
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Old April 13th, 2010, 06:29 AM   #2338
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Lets dont discuss Chinese government here, it will definitely start a flame war. Just to sake of the argument tough, "one party rule" is much more appropriate.

What derekf1974 said makes some sense tough. Trains on Shanghai-Nanning line probably will be already full when they leave Shanghai. It all depends on numbers. What is the passenger volume between Shanghai-Hangzhou? How fast is this number increasing?

Does anyone have numbers?
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Old April 13th, 2010, 07:10 AM   #2339
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http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/13/bu.../13inside.html

China Looks to Rails to Carry Its Next Economic Boom
By ALAN WHEATLEY
BEIJING — In southwestern Yunnan Province, giant concrete pillars bestride the fields, tracing the route of one of scores of new rail lines that China is building.


In western Xinjiang, construction crews toil on a lonely line crossing the desert wastes to the Silk Road city of Kashgar.


From one end of the country to the other, China is in the midst of a railroad boom that promises to transform the world’s third-largest economy, after those of the United States and Japan.



By making it easier to move people and goods, the railroad mania will gradually shift the center of economic gravity inland, accelerating the development of central and western China in an echo of America’s experience in the 19th century.


Jing Ulrich, chairwoman of the China equities and commodities business at J.P. Morgan, said she also saw comparisons with the construction of the Interstate highway system in the United States and the shinkansen high-speed rail network in Japan, both of which brought far-reaching socioeconomic changes.



“However, due to the immense scale of construction, faster service speeds and China’s vast population, the transformative impact may be even more profound,” she said in a recent report.


As better transportation links encourage manufacturers to relocate away from the coast, demand for property in the interior will grow, lifting consumer sentiment and retail sales. The railroads will also be a boon for tourism, Ms. Ulrich said.


Taking freight and passenger traffic together, China already has the world’s busiest railroad system. But measured by the size of the country and the needs of 1.3 billion people, the system is puny.


The density of the network, measured in kilometers of line per million inhabitants, is less than a tenth of those in Russia, the United States or Canada, a seventh of the European Union’s and about a third of Japan’s, according to the World Bank.

This sparse network, totaling 86,000 kilometers, or 54,000 miles, at the end of 2009, is so overburdened that it carries a quarter of the world’s rail traffic on about 6 percent of the world’s lines.


It is no wonder that China suffers periodic energy shortages, because coal trains are delayed in reaching power stations as they are shunted onto sidings to make way for passenger trains.

Well aware of the problem, the government turned the financial crisis into an opportunity to fast-forward its long-term plan to lengthen the network to 120,000 kilometers by 2020.


Railroad construction invigorated the economy last year by creating six million jobs and generating demand for 20 million tons of steel and 120 million tons of cement.

“If the policy is that large cash infusions create jobs, then from a transport perspective railways is certainly the place where the financing is necessary,” said John Scales, the lead transportation policy specialist for the World Bank in Beijing.

By the end of 2009, work was under way on no less than 33,000 kilometers of lines, according to analysts at Macquarie, the investment bank.

With the Ministry of Railways budgeting a 17 percent increase in spending this year to 823 billion renminbi, or $120 billion, the analysts said that they believed the 120,000-kilometer target could be reached as soon as 2015 and that they saw a good chance that it would be raised to 150,000 kilometers.


The economic case for expanding the rail network is clear-cut. During a country’s development phase, total demand for transportation tends to grow faster than income.


But some critics say China is putting too much emphasis on high-speed rail lines capable of accommodating speeds of as much as 350 kilometers an hour.

China already has the longest operational high-speed network in the world, at 6,552 kilometers, and it intends to double that total to 13,000 kilometers by 2012 by upgrading existing track and building new lines.


When the high-speed line linking Beijing and Shanghai opens by early 2012, the journey time will be cut to 4 hours from 10.

China is rightly proud of the giant strides it is making. It is seeking to build a high-speed rail line in California and is bidding for a contract to link Mecca and Medina in Saudi Arabia.

At home, the aim is to reduce if possible the travel time to each provincial capital from second-tier towns in that province to two hours or less, bringing economic benefits.

Yet Zhao Jian, a professor at Jiaotong University in Beijing, who specializes in rail economics, is scathing in his assessment of what he calls the “blind pursuit of speed.”


He said in the monthly journal Comprehensive Transportation that China could have built an extra 30,000 kilometers of conventional track with the money saved from what he characterized as “extravagant” high-speed lines.

China, he argued, does not have the technological experience to be sure of operating such lines safely. Moreover, high-speed trains gobble up energy and subsidies.



“There is no high-speed railway in the world that can be financially self-sustaining,” Mr. Zhao said in the journal. “The large-scale construction of high-speed railway passenger lines in China will definitely be confronted with huge risks.”

High-speed rail travel could even pose social and political risks, he added, since fares on the new trains are three times as high as those on ordinary trains.

In addition, he said, the Ministry of Railways is deliberately reducing the frequency of slower trains to make passengers use the new services.



“This will be met with strong social discontent,” Mr. Zhao said.

Mr. Scales, the World Bank expert, sees things differently.

“In other parts of the world, nobody would think of designing new passenger lines for less than 350 kilometers per hour,” he said. “So it’s very reasonable.”


He added, “And remember that many of the dedicated passenger lines are not built to move passengers, but to get passengers off the freight lines. That’s where the real bottlenecks are.”

Alan Wheatley is a Reuters columnist.
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Old April 13th, 2010, 03:56 PM   #2340
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If a project has been stopped by NIMBYs then it means this cannot be a dictatorship, and viceversa. Sounds easy to me.
I will re-explain the point for you. The dictatorship has used nimbys as an excuse to not move forward. If they really wanted to do it they would have done it. Therefore, they did not want to do it.

Makes perfect sense, not that I necessarily agree with the premises. It implies that if you're a state, then taking advantage of circumstance to appear democratic when actually you were going to do nothing anyway is a propoganda coup. Even western governments do this, why wouldn't China?

Urbanfan89 is making a logical point.

However I doubt the premise, and I wouldn't be surprised if we do see a maglev in parallel at some point. At China's rate of growth the corridor could support the capacity by 2050.
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