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Old April 13th, 2010, 05:31 PM   #2341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
I will re-explain the point for you.
Thanks, I'm so stupid I don't know how I would do without you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
The dictatorship has used nimbys as an excuse to not move forward. If they really wanted to do it they would have done it. Therefore, they did not want to do it.
Aahhh! NOW I understand. So the dictatorship has built a Maglev terminal in Hongqiao and prompted a NIMBY rebellion and spent money to build a domestic Maglev to fool us into believing they were seriously aiming at new Maglev lines, but no, they were just joking. The dictatorship is truly mephistophelian. Thanks Lord we have Makita09 and his insider info.
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Old April 13th, 2010, 06:36 PM   #2342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peloso View Post
Thanks, I'm so stupid I don't know how I would do without you.
You're not stupid, but thats how you will come across if you read want you want to see and not what is written.

Quote:
Aahhh! NOW I understand.
Evidently not.

Quote:
So the dictatorship has built a Maglev terminal in Hongqiao and prompted a NIMBY rebellion and spent money to build a domestic Maglev to fool us into believing they were seriously aiming at new Maglev lines, but no, they were just joking.
No, thats not what what Urbanfan89 said. See what I mean when you don't read what is written, instead read what you think is written?

Quote:
Thanks Lord we have Makita09 and his insider info.
I don't have any insider info, I was translating into stupid what another poster had written, evidently not a dialect of stupid you can cope with. I made it quite clear from my post that I don't agree with what Urbanfan wrote, so don't misrepresent me just because you can't read.
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Last edited by makita09; April 13th, 2010 at 07:12 PM.
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Old April 13th, 2010, 11:04 PM   #2343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
You're not stupid, but thats how you will come across if you read want you want to see and not what is written.



Evidently not.



No, thats not what what Urbanfan89 said. See what I mean when you don't read what is written, instead read what you think is written?



I don't have any insider info, I was translating into stupid what another poster had written, evidently not a dialect of stupid you can cope with. I made it quite clear from my post that I don't agree with what Urbanfan wrote, so don't misrepresent me just because you can't read.
Makita, it's you who are not reading what is written by Peloso. Peloso is right on the money with his last post, which made the following two points:

1) Urbanfan did not make a logical point. He was at best painting a possible scenario. And you, Makita, are unlikely to have insider information to confirm that Urbanfan's scenario is correct;

2) Your reconstruction of Urbanfan's scenario cannot be correct as it stands, for the government has already started constructing part of the Maglev line, and it is preposterous to suppose that it started the construction in order to generate an opportunity for manufacturing the impression of its responsiveness to NIMBYs. So the scenario, to be possible at all, has to include something like a change of mind on the part of the government: it wanted to construct the line, but changed its mind and the timing of its change of mind coincided with the NIMBYs' activism. This may still not work eventually, but Peloso's point here is your scenario needs to at least be modified in some such way to be possible.

Given these two points of Peloso (unfortunately few of visitors of this site can read), the simpler explanation of this whole sequence of events surrounding the Maglev line in question is probably the true one: the government was being responsive to NIMBYs.

I think Peloso is right, both in this and in a more general point. There are many different ways in which a government can respond to popular demands, not all of which take the form of democratic institutions found and took shape in the West in the last few hundred years. The general point is that "un-democratic" in the sense of not possessing these western institutions need not be a dirty word. Moral and political horizons are constantly being pushed during periods of large scale social transformations, in ways no one could anticipate. And what is happening now in China is certainly one of these transformations that are likely to effect lasting changes on these fronts.

But I digress, as I simply cannot stand this combination of smugness about western institutions with political illiteracy.
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Old April 13th, 2010, 11:50 PM   #2344
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Non of you guys know exactly what you're talking about.

Many projects, in China, are delayed and/or eventually cancelled due to NIMBYISM. The Chinese government gain their ligitmacy through performance and the general contentness of the population. In fact, the satisfaction of the general mass would be the single thing that the government in China is most concerned for besides prehaps a major natural disaster.

In countries like Canada, the government's power come from the constitution and written law. The Chinese communist government's power come from the fact the the people will allow it to stay in power. If the Chinese want one of their politicians to be dead, then the person will be dead. How much can we say about our so-called democracies?


The Shanghai-Hangzhou maglev will not be built not because the government doesn't want to build it, or that the nighbours were worried about radiation. The line will not be built because the general Chinese mass will see it as an incompetent waste of money, and through this, will see the government as corrupt and useless.

And therefore, the people's will become the will of the Chinese Communist Party. Which is to only build things that can be justified as feasiable.

However, for the sake of technological advancement, the government must also incite research in this field for future purposes. And the best way for Chinese companies and organization to continue focusing on the research of the Maglev is for them to expect returns on their investment. Thus, approvals.

So the line may be built... if the demostified version becomes cheap enough. But most likely the next phase will be the extention to Hongqiao.
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Old April 14th, 2010, 12:32 AM   #2345
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An underlying point is that the Transrapid is a solution in search of a problem. In the past, before China was embarking on its high speed rail projects, it was hoped that the Transrapid prototype line in Pudong could convince the Central Government to choose Transrapid when it came time to plan the national high speed rail grid. That's why the official name of the Pudong maglev is the "Shanghai Magnetic Levitation Demonstration Operation Line". But now that the government is going full force with steel on rail technology, it is impossible that maglev will be used for mass transportation on a national scale.

There will now be three (3) high capacity, high speed railway lines between Shanghai and Hangzhou. A fourth one which is not technologically compatible and whose fares will be much higher than the other ones (and all that fancy technology will only save 10 minutes) makes no sense. By the time maglev becomes economically feasible (if ever), China will be *more* democratic and the government will be even less willing to proceed with this project than now.

Hopefully, the entire Pudong maglev will be shut down and replaced with steel-on-wheel HSR, which would permit passengers from across the Yangtze Delta to take trains directly to the airport. This seems much more economical than the hare-brained scheme as it stands.
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Old April 14th, 2010, 01:31 AM   #2346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
I don't have any insider info, I was translating into stupid what another poster had written, evidently not a dialect of stupid you can cope with.
Probably the translation from depressed sex-deprivated kid lingo into stupid was not top-notch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UD2 View Post


Non of you guys know exactly what you're talking about.
These forums are in a bad, bad predicament. So little educated people, so little people capable to discuss.
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Old April 14th, 2010, 03:13 AM   #2347
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wow.. you guys stole 4-5 min from my life

Without passenger volume numbers everyone here, pro or anti-maglev line, is just behaving as fortune tellers. Is there an official web page about the project? I couldnt find anything. Is anyone here even know what is the budget?
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Old April 14th, 2010, 03:16 AM   #2348
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Yeah that was an unusually unneccessary way of derailing an otherwise great thread.

In any case, this is right on the money regarding China and NIMBYism:

Quote:
Many projects, in China, are delayed and/or eventually cancelled due to NIMBYISM. The Chinese government gain their ligitmacy through performance and the general contentness of the population. In fact, the satisfaction of the general mass would be the single thing that the government in China is most concerned for besides prehaps a major natural disaster.
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Old April 14th, 2010, 11:43 AM   #2349
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The ones who purport to be the arbiter's of rational discussion are anhything but.

Peloso - you quoted

Quote:
and the fact that NIMBYs are able to stop the project (and remember this *is* a dictatorship which gets away with whatever it wants)
as being contradictory, all I am saying is that this is not necessarity so, and so did Staff. THAT IS NOT THE SAME AS ME AGREEING WITH IT.

To disagree with an argument one must first understand it.

Ariel74 - The point you have discussed the Urbanfan wrote is a wider point than the specific one that Peloso had an issue with, so you are right in taking issue with that and I alluded to this in pointing out that I did not agree with the premises of the argument that Peloso then took issue with. The one he quoted was a norrower issue, and whether or not the govt had indeed started or stopped the project was irrelevent to it, indeed whether it was in China or not was also irrelevent to that particular point.

I assumed he intended to take issue with the wider point, but alas one can only read what is written, hence why I gave him a chance to review his posts, which he duely utilised to prove himself a ****.


This particular part of the forum always decends into this nonsense because everyone thinks they know about China. I have no comment over whether China is more or less deomocratic than the west, I have no comment about whether nimbys can affect the direction of infrastructure projects, and I do not harbour any thoughts about the superiority about the 'western' systems over China's. Nor have said as such.

Indeed, I also said that the political technique suggested by Urbanfan89 is also used by western governments, regardless of whether or not it was used by the Chinese in this instance.

Now will everyone stop misquoting me, stop misquoting everyone else and stop being so adversarial.

Peloso - have you realised yet that me and Urbanfan89 do not agree with each other? Or are you just intent on having an argument regardless?
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Old April 14th, 2010, 11:58 AM   #2350
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The ones who purport to be the arbiter's of rational discussion are anhything but.

Peloso - you quoted

Quote:
and the fact that NIMBYs are able to stop the project (and remember this *is* a dictatorship which gets away with whatever it wants)
as being contradictory, all I am saying is that this is not necessarity so, and so did Staff. THAT IS NOT THE SAME AS ME AGREEING WITH IT.

To disagree with an argument one must first understand it.

Ariel74 - The point you have discussed the Urbanfan wrote is a wider point than the specific one that Peloso had an issue with, so you are right in taking issue with that and I alluded to this in pointing out that I did not agree with the premises of the argument that Peloso then took issue with. The one he quoted was a norrower issue, and whether or not the govt had indeed started or stopped the project was irrelevent to it, indeed whether it was in China or not was also irrelevent to that particular point.

I assumed he intended to take issue with the wider point, but alas one can only read what is written, hence why I gave him a chance to review his posts.

I have no comment over whether China is more or less deomocratic than the west, I have no comment about whether nimbys can affect the direction of infrastructure projects, and I do not harbour any thoughts about the superiority about the 'western' systems over China's. Nor have said as such.

Indeed, I also said that the political technique suggested by Urbanfan89 is also used by western governments, regardless of whether or not it was used by the Chinese in this instance.

Now will everyone stop misquoting me, stop misquoting everyone else and stop being so adversarial.

Peloso - have you realised yet that me and Urbanfan89 do not agree with each other? Or are you just intent on having an argument regardless?
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Old April 14th, 2010, 01:25 PM   #2351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
I assumed he intended to take issue with the wider point, but alas one can only read what is written, hence why I gave him a chance to review his posts, which he duely utilised to prove himself a ****.
Please mods, ban this loquacious *******, I don't want to get vulgar and rules say one should not call people names in here.
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Old April 14th, 2010, 02:44 PM   #2352
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@ Makita: I must say my sympathies lie, in this case, entirely with Peloso. The following sentence by Urbanfan is at the center of your agitations:

NIMBYs are able to stop the project (and remember this *is* a dictatorship which gets away with whatever it wants)

You cannot possibly call that "making a logical point", with "premisses" and all (where is the conclusion, and with which premise in there you disagree?) Your subsequent argumentative gymnastics were not very successful at making sense of Urbanfan's bizarre sentence, and Peloso rightly, perhaps with some sarcasm, pointed that out to you. So why not admit that and move on?

By the way, I have never claimed my knowledge about China is superior. Someone else did. So leave me out of that contentious debate if you can. As far as "democracy" in China is concerned, I wasn't addressing you per se, and my point was not that China is or is not "democratic", but rather that the very concept is historically conditioned and rather parochially rooted in one particular culture at a particular time (think about Plato's contempt for majority-rule if you have difficulties with non-European cultures). But I suppose that's off-topic.

Last edited by Ariel74; April 14th, 2010 at 02:52 PM.
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Old April 14th, 2010, 04:24 PM   #2353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peloso View Post
Please mods, ban this loquacious *******, I don't want to get vulgar and rules say one should not call people names in here.
I have taken away the expletive of my own accord a few seconds after making the post. Besides, a bit rich from someone who intimated poster's sex lives into the discussion.

Ariel74 - as my earlier post said "The dictatorship has used nimbys as an excuse to not move forward. If they really wanted to do it they would have done it. Therefore, they did not want to do it. "

This is what was meant by Urbanfan's post, the premise that I disagreed with was the first bit "The dictatorship has used nimbys as an excuse to not move forward."

But it is still logical nonetheless. The rest of my point from the bold was not directed at you so forgive me if you thought that, I just wanted to make clear that people are being misrepresented and are being allowed to get away with it. With that and the sarcasm directed at people, from the very person who then complained "So little educated people, so little people capable to discuss. " I will defend my point and other people's if they are misrepresented and attacked, even if I completely disagree with them.
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Old April 14th, 2010, 10:55 PM   #2354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
Ariel74 - as my earlier post said "The dictatorship has used nimbys as an excuse to not move forward. If they really wanted to do it they would have done it. Therefore, they did not want to do it. "

This is what was meant by Urbanfan's post, the premise that I disagreed with was the first bit "The dictatorship has used nimbys as an excuse to not move forward."
Apart from the fact that the bit in your self-quoted passage that you purportedly reject does not play the role of a premise in an argument by any stretch of the definition of "premise", it is clear to any unbiased person that

a) this is not what Urbanfan said. What he said is very close to a contradiction, as Peloso pointed out.

b) your attempt to carve out a niche of consistency for what Urbanfan's thoughtlessness is not only a forced interpretation, it is also not very convincing in itself, again, as Peloso pointed out.

So I really don't see what you are trying to do, and I'd give it a rest if I were you.

But of course I have already made these points.
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Old April 16th, 2010, 10:31 PM   #2355
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From BBC

Quote:
China and Brazil sign trade deals at Bric summit


China and Brazil are strengthening their trade and investment ties
China and Brazil have signed several trade agreements on the sidelines of a shortened Bric summit in Brasilia.
The deals are aimed at boosting trade and energy co-operation between the two states and include a pact to build a Chinese steel plant in Brazil.
The four emerging economies of Brazil, Russia, India and China make up Bric.
The summit was brought forward by a day after China's President Hu decided to return home early to deal with the aftermath of a major earthquake.
Greater influence
This is the second summit of the Bric leaders, following their meeting in the Russian city of Yekaterinburg last year.

The countries also reiterated calls to have a greater say in global financial institutions such as the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund (IMF).
"Brazil, Russia, India and China have a fundamental role in creating a new international order that is more just, representative and safe," said Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva.
The group has been pushing for reform of the global financial system, which it says is unfairly dominated by developed economies such as the US and Japan.
The Bric countries account for 40% of the world's population and, therefore, should have a greater say in the way the global economy is managed, they argue.
Train link
President Lula said of the steel agreement: "It will be the biggest Chinese investment in Brazil and the biggest by China abroad in this sector."
The deal involves the Brazilian company LLX, a subsidiary of the EBX group controlled by billionaire, Eike Batista, and Chinese firm Wuhan Iron and Steel.
The mill will be built in the port of Acu in Rio de Janeiro state.
He added that China had also expressed an interest in bidding to construct a high-speed train line between Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo.
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Old April 17th, 2010, 10:46 AM   #2356
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oh noes! Now the Koreans must be worrying that their planned lowball bid will not be so competitive after all...

http://joongangdaily.joins.com/artic...sp?aid=2917610
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Old April 18th, 2010, 02:17 AM   #2357
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Quote:
“Korea has the strength of being able to build the system in a short time and at a reasonable cost,”
If that's going to be what they're basing their campaign on, then they've got almost no hope...
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Old April 18th, 2010, 04:17 AM   #2358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue raven View Post
If that's going to be what they're basing their campaign on, then they've got almost no hope...
Can we say steamrolled?
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Old April 19th, 2010, 06:56 AM   #2359
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Fuzhou - Xiamen high speed rail status

Below are three recent articles with information on the Fuzhou - Xiamen high speed rail line recently completed:

Schedule of Fuzhou-Xiamen bullet trains unveiled to public
Updated: 2010-04-17
whatsonxiamen.com

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The intial timetable of the Fuzhou-Xiamen bullet trains has been unveiled.

The initial timetable of the Fuzhou-Xiamen bullet trains has been released to the public, reports Xiamen Economic Daily.

The first bullet train heading for Fuzhou will be departing from Xiamen Railway Station at 7:16 and arrive in Fuzhou Bei (North) Station at 9:05. The whole duration is one hour and 49 minutes.

However, the initial schedule needs the final confirmation from the Ministry of Railways of the P.R.C. Since the initial schedule was made, the related authority of the Fuzhou-Xiamen High-speed Railway has been seeking advice from related departments. Therefore, the timetable may be adjusted when the bullet trains officially begin to run.

As is disclosed on the timetable, at least 2 out of the 22 trains will set off to Fuzhou every other hour. After the bullet trains serve the passengers, 22 pairs of bullet trains will run between Fuzhou and Xiamen every day. Besides, there will be 3 pairs of bullet trains running between Xiamen and Shanghai Nan (South), and Hangzhou.

The last bullet train departing from Xiamen to Fuzhou sets off at 21:27. It will take less than 2 hours to travel between Xiamen and Fuzhou by bullet train.

----------------------------------------------

Fuzhou-Xiamen bullet train tickets priced
Updated: 2010-04-19
whatsonxiamen.com

image hosted on flickr

The Fuzhou-Xiamen bullet trains are set to serve passengers on 26th April.

The ticket prices of Fuzhou-Xiamen bullet trains have been confirmed, the Fujian Southeast Express reported.

There are two kinds of seats, first-class seat and second-class seat. The prices are as follows.

1). Fuzhou-Xiamen (about 1.5 hours)
- 103 yuan for first-class seat
- 85 yuan for second-class seat

2). Fuzhou-Putian (about 50 minutes)
- 39 yuan for first-class seat
- 32 yuan for second-class seat

3). Fuzhou-Quanzhou (about 70 minutes)
- 64 yuan for first-class seat
- 53 yuan for second-class seat

Compared to the ticket prices (100-105 yuan) of the Fuzhou-Xiamen long-distance buses, the ticket prices of bullet trains are more favorable. Besides, students will enjoy 25% discount.

It will only take about 1.5 hours to travel from Xiamen to Fuzhou by bullet train, about half of the time needed by long-distance bus.

On 12th April, the Beijing-Fuzhou bullet train (D372) ceased operation due to poor demands, only two months after it was put into service. The unused bullet train will serve passengers along the Fuzhou-Xiamen High-speed Railway.

Facility design on the unused bullet train is people-oriented. Liquid crystal television (LCTV), air passenger seat and induction switch will be available on the train.

-----------------------------------------------------

EMU trains on Fuzhou-Xiamen High-speed Railway to run April 26
Updated: 2010-03-23
whatsonxiamen.com


image hosted on flickr

The 274.9-km long high-speed railway will shorten the journey time
between Fuzhou and Xiamen within 1.5 hours


The Fuzhou-Xiamen High-Speed Railway is scheduled to open to EMU trains on April 26, 2010 and the initial train service arrangement has been released, reports Monday’s Xiamen Evening News.

25 daily pairs of train service will be running between Fuzhou South Station and Xiamen Railway Station during the initial period, and 12 more pairs of trains will be added into service late May or early June.

By then, a total of 37 pairs of EMU trains will be serving passengers on the Fuzhou-Xiamen High-Speed Railway.

The earliest pair of trains will be departing at the same time from Xiamen Railway Station and Fuzhou South Station at 7:30am and the latest pair will be 9:00pm.

Trains will selectively stop at Xiamen New Railway Station, Jinjiang, Quanzhou, Putian, Xianyou, Hanjiang, Fuqing, Wenzhou, Taizhou, Ningbo, Fenghua and Hangzhou East.

In addition, 3 pairs of EMU trains will be put into service between Shanghai South and Xiamen, and 2 pair of trains to run between Hangzhou and Xiamen by June.

The 274.9-km long high-speed railway will shorten the journey time between Fuzhou and Xiamen within 1.5 hours, challenging the short-haul distance bus service and even the air transportation market between Xiamen and Shanghai, Hangzhou and Ningbo.

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Old April 19th, 2010, 10:19 PM   #2360
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Ticket price is really competitive.
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