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Old April 26th, 2010, 06:10 PM   #2381
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Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
Can this train be the one with 380km/h which has been mentioned before?
Yes, CRH380, meaning the top speed of 380 km/hr, meaning revenue speed will be something like 340 km/hr.

So what is this thing, a Frankenstein of Shinkansen body coupled with Velaro underbody? The best of both world? Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that.

There is a good reason why Japan imposed the revenue speed restriction of 320 km/hr with all Shinkansen models; any higher and the wear and tear on track is too great, and train must be lightened to service at 360 km/hr.

You can witness this extensive weight reduction effort on true 360 km/hr class train models AGV and HEMU-400x, which isn't visible on this Chinese model.
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Old April 26th, 2010, 06:47 PM   #2382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
Yes, CRH380, meaning the top speed of 380 km/hr, meaning revenue speed will be something like 340 km/hr.

So what is this thing, a Frankenstein of Shinkansen body coupled with Velaro underbody? The best of both world? Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that.

There is a good reason why Japan imposed the revenue speed restriction of 320 km/hr with all Shinkansen models; any higher and the wear and tear on track is too great, and train must be lightened to service at 360 km/hr.

You can witness this extensive weight reduction effort on true 360 km/hr class train models AGV and HEMU-400x, which isn't visible on this Chinese model.
This has been discussed before. Bottom line: Japan and China is not the same. China has better tracks and trains are built according to 350km/h speed.

Also, the train that has been talked has 380km/h speed. There is no need for discrimination of top speed and revenue speed. I am not sure whether that train is this one but as you wrote name may be the clue.
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Old April 26th, 2010, 09:57 PM   #2383
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seconded.
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Old April 26th, 2010, 10:37 PM   #2384
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my comments are embedded, in red.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
Yes, CRH380, meaning the top speed of 380 km/hr, meaning revenue speed will be something like 340 km/hr.

you are mixing categories. revenue speed is contrasted not with "top speed", but with speed in experiments, and there are at least three "revenue" speeds to be distinguished: top commercial speed, top sustained commercial speed, and average speed for a specific commercial line. The current idea is that CRH380 should have top commercial speed of 380km/h, but a top sustained commercial speed of around 350km/h (?).

So what is this thing, a Frankenstein of Shinkansen body coupled with Velaro underbody? The best of both world? Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that.

I think you are probably not the first person who came upon this insight. The chinese engineers, for example, aren't paid for nothing. So wait until this thing hits the rail, and it still won't be too late for your sarcasms.


There is a good reason why Japan imposed the revenue speed restriction of 320 km/hr with all Shinkansen models; any higher and the wear and tear on track is too great, and train must be lightened to service at 360 km/hr.

You can witness this extensive weight reduction effort on true 360 km/hr class train models AGV and HEMU-400x, which isn't visible on this Chinese model.

there is great danger in partial knowledge. The Velaro trains for Spain are way heavier than shinkansen models, yet they are certified to run at 350km/h. You apparently have no idea how different components of a train hang together.

And what kind of eyes do you have to "see" from these photos how heavy it is??? To give you an example: the CRH2 was developed based on the E2 series, yet its bogies were something like 1 ton heavier than their japanese counterparts (the chinese wanted to run CRH2 at a higher speed, and for that, they require more stability). Now do you "see" that CRH2 train-cars are significantly heavier than the E2 series???


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Old April 26th, 2010, 10:42 PM   #2385
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Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
trains are built according to 350km/h speed.
Siemens say no. Velaro CN(aka CRH3) they sold to China is rated at 300 km/h for revenue service. This compares to Velaro E rated at 350 km/h. Power is the same. The difference? Weight. Velaro E is lighter so it can run faster without destroying the track.

http://www.siemens.com/press/pool/de...laro_cn_en.pdf
http://www.siemens.com/industryjourn.../velaro_en.pdf

This is the reason why JR Central's CEO(Central Shinkansen Line) recently blasted Chinese railway operators for operating their trains beyond manufacturer imposed revenue service speed limit.

Quote:
Also, the train that has been talked has 380km/h speed. There is no need for discrimination of top speed and revenue speed.
All the other guys advertise revenue service top speed, not the top speed that the train is actually capable of(At least 10% faster than the advertised revenue service top speed). CRH380's claimed 380 km/hr speed isn't a revenue service speed.
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Old April 26th, 2010, 10:45 PM   #2386
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One thing that bothers me about this design is the fact that it retained the significant forward protrusion on the bottom of the lead-car. E2 and CRH2 had it, and many earlier Shinkansen models did too. It is extremely ugly to my eyes, and I bet it is not the best aerodynamic feature either.

Both the newest Shinkansen models as well as the Velaro trains have trimmed this "beard", making the wrapping around the cars and bogies tighter and more stream-lined. The fact this beard remained on CRH380 is the most striking sign yet that the modification from CRH2 has been pretty modest.
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Old April 26th, 2010, 10:51 PM   #2387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
The chinese engineers, for example, aren't paid for nothing.
Well, almost nothing.

Quote:
The Velaro trains for Spain are way heavier than shinkansen models, yet they are certified to run at 350km/h.
Velaro CN is also much heavier than Velaro E and Siemens rated it 300 km/hr, yet Chinese disregarded this speed limit and is running those trains at 350 km/hr, just because they could(Not necessarily safe to do so).
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Old April 26th, 2010, 10:51 PM   #2388
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This type of elongated nose is intended to reduce the effects of tunnel boom, so it may indeed not be the best aerodynamics for open running.
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Old April 26th, 2010, 10:52 PM   #2389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
One thing that bothers me about this design is the fact that it retained the significant forward protrusion on the bottom of the lead-car. E2 and CRH2 had it, and many earlier Shinkansen models did too. It is extremely ugly to my eyes, and I bet it is not the best aerodynamic feature either.

The fact this beard remained on CRH380 is the most striking sign yet that the modification from CRH2 has been pretty modest.
And CRH2 surely wasn't rated 380 km/hr, from which this CRH380 heavily burrows parts from.
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Old April 26th, 2010, 10:54 PM   #2390
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
Siemens say no. Velaro CN(aka CRH3) they sold to China is rated at 300 km/h for revenue service. This compares to Velaro E rated at 350 km/h. Power is the same. The difference? Weight. Velaro E is lighter so it can run faster without destroying the track.

http://www.siemens.com/press/pool/de...laro_cn_en.pdf
http://www.siemens.com/industryjourn.../velaro_en.pdf

This is the reason why JR Central's CEO(Central Shinkansen Line) recently blasted Chinese railway operators for operating their trains beyond manufacturer imposed revenue service speed limit.


All the other guys advertise revenue service top speed, not the top speed that the train is actually capable of(At least 10% faster than the advertised revenue service top speed). CRH380's claimed 380 km/hr speed isn't a revenue service speed.
Give your jumpy logic a rest, will you? Velaro E is heavier than E2, but runs faster.

JR Central's CEO's china-related remarks are certainly more motivated by sour-grape than anything else. As already pointed out, the CRH2 models commissioned to run at higher speeds are not copies of E2 series, but contained significant modifications. The chinese engineers knew more about what they are doing than you, most certainly.

And yes, the CRH-380 is supposed to have top speed of 380km/h and accordingly test speed of at least 420km/h. You may not want to believe it, but your antics don't change the facts, unfortunately. (or should I say, fortunately?)

Last edited by Ariel74; April 27th, 2010 at 02:59 AM.
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Old April 26th, 2010, 10:57 PM   #2391
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Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
Well, almost nothing.
apart from your mangled logic, this is the clearest sign yet that you belong to the sanitorium, and your presence here is merely wasting our time.
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Old April 26th, 2010, 11:01 PM   #2392
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
Velaro CN is also much heavier than Velaro E and Siemens rated it 300 km/hr, yet Chinese disregarded this speed limit and is running those trains at 350 km/hr, just because they could(Not necessarily safe to do so).
You are putting 2+2 together and coming up with disaster. From the same pdf document you posted

Quote:
The proven SF 500 bogies – which are rated for running speeds of up to 350 km/h – contribute to the exemplary lateral guidance of the train, maximizing stability for excellent running comfort.
I think you're reading too much into a press document. I certainly wouldn't take the 300km/h as the ultimate truth, considering there have been no complaints whatsoever from Siemens that I know of and all the other versions of this train are capable of this sort of speed. Basically with no supporting evidence you are scaremongering.
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Old April 26th, 2010, 11:02 PM   #2393
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
This type of elongated nose is intended to reduce the effects of tunnel boom, so it may indeed not be the best aerodynamics for open running.
I am not talking about the "nose". I am talking about the part just above the rail, below the "nose".
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Old April 26th, 2010, 11:03 PM   #2394
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
Give your jumpy logic a rest, will you? Velaro E is heavier than E2, but runs faster.
Euro track is newer and presumed to be rated higher than Japanese track.

Quote:
The reason for JR Central's CEO's china-related remarks are certainly more motivated by sour-grape than anything else.
I don't think so.

Quote:
the CRH2 models commissioned to run at higher speed are not copies of E2 series, but contained significant modifications.
To boost the revenue service speed to 300 km/hr, that's about it.

E2 series is a fundamentally an old and obsolete model whose production was discontinued in Japan at the time it was transferred to China; Japanese gave it to Chinese because it was an old technology. No amount of upgrade will make it as good as latest Shinkansen models.

Quote:
And yes, the CRH-380 is supposed to have top speed of 380km/h and accordingly test speed of at least 420km/h.
Is CRH380 even running?
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Old April 26th, 2010, 11:06 PM   #2395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
You are putting 2+2 together and coming up with disaster.
Velaro E is 300 mm narrower(lower air resistance) and is lighter than Velaro CN. This is why Velaro E could safely run at 350 km/hr. Velaro CN can't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
there have been no complaints whatsoever from Siemens that I know of and all the other versions of this train are capable of this sort of speed.
Velaro RUS is rated at 300 km/hr max like Velaro CN.
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Old April 26th, 2010, 11:19 PM   #2396
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well......do we have a full-moon tonight???

Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
Euro track is newer and presumed to be rated higher than Japanese track.

Exactly the same thing applies to the China/Europe and China/Japan comparison. Chinese tracks currently are the best in the world. But you have a selective hearing problem when it comes to arguments


I don't think so.


To boost the revenue service speed to 300 km/hr, that's about it.

And how did you come up with that number??? People with extensive test data have decided otherwise, so I think you are just making a buffoon of yourself.



Is CRH380 even running?
Ditto. Haven't you read my advice to you above? wait until it hits the rails. But you have the cognitive capacity of a three year old and can't keep different issues separate: weren't we talking about which speed the "380" in the designation is referring to? What does that have to do with whether it is running???

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Old April 26th, 2010, 11:48 PM   #2397
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I would like to invite those interested to read the exchanges I had with DoDo on a blog article he wrote a few months ago about Chinese HSR. DoDo exhibits to my mind the typical attitude of a westerner not wanting to believe what is happening in China. While much is still not rosy in chinese HSR industry, it is absurd to ignore evidence and interpret evidence to suit your wishes.

In these exchanges I (under the same user name as here) examine how DoDo systematically misinterprets his sources to support conclusions that he was antecedently determined to believe: that the chinese simply took the German and Japanese trains and ordered them, by fiat as it were, to run at a higher speed than permitted by their german and japanese producers.

That is of course categorically false. For people interested, they can find detailed discussions in my exchanges with DoDo on the modifications Chinese made to their German and Japanese prototypes, including reference to many chinese sources.

Roll to the bottom of the long page:

http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2010/2/21/16648/0334
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Old April 26th, 2010, 11:55 PM   #2398
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In China CRH3 and CRH2C trains operate at 350km/h on Earth's most modern tracks. This is the fact. Beyond this fact one can write whatever he wants but nothing will change.
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Old April 27th, 2010, 12:31 AM   #2399
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http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/877fe50a-4...44feabdc0.html

Quote:
Chief of Japanese rail operator attacks China over risks to safety

By Jonathan Soble in Tokyo

Published: April 6 2010 03:00 | Last updated: April 6 2010 03:00

The chairman of Central Japan Railway, operator of Japan's oldest and busiest bullet train link, has denounced China's growing high-speed rail industry for "stealing" foreign technology and compromising safety.

....

"The difference between China and Japan is that, in Japan, if one passenger is injured or killed the cost is prohibitively high," Yoshiyuki Kasai said. "It's very serious. But China is a country where 10,000 passengers could die every year and no one would make a fuss."

....

Many trains on Chinese routes travel at up to 350kph, 25 per cent faster than Shinkansen trains in Japan, and have had no big accidents. But Mr Kasai said they are much closer to maximum safe speeds: "I don't think they are paying the same attention to safety that we are. Pushing it that close to the limit is something we would absolutely never do."
So you have the word of Shinkansen Line CEO that Chinese are speeding their Shinkansen trains beyond their safe operating speed limit.
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Old April 27th, 2010, 12:34 AM   #2400
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
In China CRH3 and CRH2C trains operate at 350km/h on Earth's most modern tracks. This is the fact.
Chinese track is no more modern than German tracks.

And Germans who supplied track design and rolling stock certified them for 300 km/hr max revenue service speed, but this is ignored by Chinese operators.
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