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Old May 5th, 2010, 02:22 AM   #2481
yaohua2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
There are currently at least three lines of development for 380km/h level train-sets in China, but only Zefiro and the CRH2-380 are associated with Sifang. So the picture we see is Zefiro in test?
The test track is located in Beijing.

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Old May 5th, 2010, 02:30 AM   #2482
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Old May 5th, 2010, 02:31 AM   #2483
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Here is another picture I came across viewing a chinese video that contained a short interview of Mr. Zhang ??? (deputy chief-engineer for MOR). Mr. Zhang showed a picture of his teacher, himself, and his own students. Incidentally, the picture also shows a train model that is very likely an earlier trial version of the CRH2-based CRH380 shown at the Expo:

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Old May 5th, 2010, 05:49 AM   #2484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
CRH2-based CRH380 shown at the Expo:
So CRH380 is indeed based on Shinkansen E2.

That makes things very interesting for US high speed railway project.

Since Shinkansen itself is in trouble with FRA over crashworthiness issue, CRH380 too would be disqualified from US bidding if Shinkansen is disqualified, leaving the competition to European models and KTX-II as the sole Asian contender in the bidding process.

But it was Japanese and Chinese who were expected to come up with $15~20 billion railway construction loans.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 01:59 PM   #2485
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Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
An interesting issue came up that possibly concerns CRH380's export bid.

http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201005020176.html


The US railway safety regulation requires rolling stocks to meet certain crash-worthiness and this is expected to be applied to high speed trains as well because US high speed trains are expected to operate over existing railways. Shinkansen in its current form cannot meet this requirement and Japan's Transportation Ministry is demanding the US to drop or lower the current crash-worthiness standard applied to high speed trains for the sake of increased competition that benefits the US railways.

CRH380, by the virtue of being "influenced" by Shinkansen E2, may also not meet this US train crash-worthiness standard and be disqualified from US bidding if the US decides to adopt European crash-worthiness standard.
European high speed trains would not meet current US crashworthiness standards either, because they require trains to have very heavy, rigid bodies that can survive an allegedly "arbitrary" level of force. If the US did reform its crashworthiness standards to bring them into line with European rules, potential bidders from Japan and China might have to modifiy their designs but at least they would know that it was possible to build high speed trains that met the standards.
Quote:
The Acela Fiasco

Amtrak's botched attempt at a high-speed train is a good case study in the problems caused by the FRA. As originally designed, the Acela was supposed to provide high-speed rail service on the Northeast Corridor (NEC) between Boston, New York, and Washington DC with speeds as high as 150 mph.

n order to procure the world's best off-the-shelf train for the least amount of money, Amtrak decided to buy an existing design from a European or Japanese manufacturer, who have decades of experience building and operating high-speed trains. The winner of this competition was a consortium of Bombadier and Alstom (the French TGV builder).

Then, in 1999 with Acela planning fully underway, the FRA pulled the rug out by issuing regulations for high-speed rail service requiring trains to withstand 800,000 pounds force without deformation. The 800,000 figure is an arbitrary number dating back to the 1920s; this mandate has since been increased to 1 million pounds.

The buffering requirement confounded Bombadier. Train weight is of crucial importance as it affects the amount of track wear, noise, and energy costs. To meet the buffering regulation, the train would have to be significantly bulked-up. The result was a highspeed train nearly twice as heavy as its European counterparts. As such, the Acela has been described variously as a tank-on-wheels and a bank-vault-on-wheels. Indeed, an overweight train like Acela would be banned from the European high speed rail network.

Because the extra weight put so much strain on the train body (which was never designed to handle such loads) trainsets suffered excessive wheel wear, cracks in the yaw damper and brake rotors, and other problems which can probably never be completely fixed. Whereas the original contract called for trains to run 400,000 miles between equipment failures, the Acela can barely manage 20,000 miles.

Buffering Standards

FRA staffers point out that it is unfair to compare US buffering standards with those in Europe because passenger rail in the US has to contend with more (and heavier) freight traffic. Like the soccer-Mom who thinks an SUV provides greater safety, the FRA figures collisions are inevitable and heavier is better. And just as an SUV is a hazard to other road users, the same is true with the Acela. Amtrak bitterly complained that the heavier Acela trains would be potentially lethal against lighter commuter trains on the NEC in the event of a collision.

And heaver trains are a lot more expensive to operate, which means higher fares and fewer trains running to fewer places. This in turn means travelers often resort to driving cars, which is 10-100 times more dangerous than rail travel. In other words, even if one accepts the premise that the excessive US buffering standards make train travel safer, they may in fact be counterproductive by diverting potential train riders to automobiles, causing many times more highway fatalities.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 02:43 PM   #2486
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Although this is purely speculations, the FRA safety regulations may or may not be enforced based on rail usage.
If HSR are required to share tracks with other rail traffic then FRA will probably force present regulations but if HSR is completely independent then FRA may not be able to push their regulations since their logic would not apply.
The bigger issue for suppliers would probably be "BUY AMERICAN" clause being applied since federal funding will be used, meaning a simple knock down plant will not be sufficient and the winning party will be required to either construct an assembly plant or partner with an American company and license production to them. In this case PRC and S.Korea would be scrutinized for any patent infringement by patent holders who transferred their technology.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 05:08 PM   #2487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gag Halfrunt View Post
European high speed trains would not meet current US crashworthiness standards either
FRA's proposal is that the US adapt European crashworthiness standard for high speed trains.

This would put Shinkansen(and Chinese CRH380) out of bidding but keeps Koreans(Whose KTX-II is designed around European regulations) to do the low-balling on price.

Quote:
If the US did reform its crashworthiness standards to bring them into line with European rules, potential bidders from Japan and China might have to modify their designs but at least they would know that it was possible to build high speed trains that met the standards.
Modifying Shinkansen to meet Euro crashworthiness standard is no easy task, since a Shinkansen trainset is 50~100 ton lighter than either TGV or Velaro in spite of being much larger.

Toughening up Shinkansen would add a hundred ton or more to the train set.

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Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
if HSR is completely independent then FRA may not be able to push their regulations since their logic would not apply.
It's FRA's call.

Quote:
The bigger issue for suppliers would probably be "BUY AMERICAN" clause being applied since federal funding will be used, meaning a simple knock down plant will not be sufficient and the winning party will be required to either construct an assembly plant or partner with an American company and license production to them.
Most of prospective bidders(Kawasaki, Bombardier, Siemens, Rotem) already manufacture railway cars in the US.

The notable exception is Chinese, who plan to outsource manufacturing to GE's US plant.

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In this case PRC and S.Korea would be scrutinized for any patent infringement by patent holders who transferred their technology.
Chinese, maybe. Koreans, no.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 06:18 PM   #2488
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I didn't know that Hyundai Rotem had any train factories in North America. I do know that the train sets delivered to Vancouver BC was imported from S.Korea.
I am also not familiar of the details concerning the technology transfer agreement between Rotem and Alstom.
As for crashworthiness regulations, do Europe actually bother having any since it's completely goes against HSR philosophy where "Crash Prevention" is the #1 priority(and only priority) so that collision does not occur in the first place since a train going faster than 250Km a collision will no doubt connect to fatality in a massive scale.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 06:42 PM   #2489
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Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
I didn't know that Hyundai Rotem had any train factories in North America.

Mayor of San Bernardino speaks to press about the crash safety feature of newly Rotem delivered Metrolink commuter train car on May 3rd, 2010.

Quote:
I am also not familiar of the details concerning the technology transfer agreement between Rotem and Alstom.
Whatever the agreement is, it lets Rotem legally compete with Alstom in most markets, as you have seen in markets like Brazil and US without raising an Alstom protest. Beside, KTX-II looks different from TGV in terms of specific utilized technology and component, even if the overall layout is similar. So consider KTX-II the best TGV that Alstom never built.

Quote:
As for crashworthiness regulations, do Europe actually bother having any since it's completely goes against HSR philosophy where "Crash Prevention" is the #1 priority(and only priority) so that collision does not occur in the first place since a train going faster than 250Km a collision will no doubt connect to fatality in a massive scale.
Crashes with automobiles happens at crossings of shared legacy tracks that these bullet trains run on, not on high speed tracks.

Shinkansen runs on dedicated high speed track that has no crossing, so crash safety was never a part of Shinkansen's design requirement.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 07:01 PM   #2490
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post

Mayor of San Bernardino speaks to press about the crash safety feature of newly Rotem delivered Metrolink commuter train car on May 3rd, 2010.
This reply really does not answer my question, does Hyundai Rotem have a factory in North America?
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Old May 5th, 2010, 07:59 PM   #2491
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Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
This reply really does not answer my question, does Hyundai Rotem have a factory in North America?
Yes, in Philadelphia, for supplying East coast commuter railcar orders from Pennsylvania and Boston.

California may get its own factory if Rotem wins California High Speed Rail contract. For the Metrolink car, it was shipped from Korea as a kit and final assembly was done at Metrolink's Maintenance Facility.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 08:02 PM   #2492
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
This reply really does not answer my question, does Hyundai Rotem have a factory in North America?
Yes.
http://www.philly.com/philly/business/90592304.html
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Old May 5th, 2010, 11:45 PM   #2493
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Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
Although this is purely speculations, the FRA safety regulations may or may not be enforced based on rail usage.
If HSR are required to share tracks with other rail traffic then FRA will probably force present regulations but if HSR is completely independent then FRA may not be able to push their regulations since their logic would not apply.
The bigger issue for suppliers would probably be "BUY AMERICAN" clause being applied since federal funding will be used, meaning a simple knock down plant will not be sufficient and the winning party will be required to either construct an assembly plant or partner with an American company and license production to them. In this case PRC and S.Korea would be scrutinized for any patent infringement by patent holders who transferred their technology.
The Chinese will outsource manufacturing to GE in the US, so the Chinese will satisfy the US government demand for buying local. This point is probably the most important for the US consumers as jobs will be created in the US.
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Old May 7th, 2010, 11:35 AM   #2494
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Chengguan Railway to open on May 11th

Chengdu – Qingchengshan

Length: 65 km
Maximum speed: 200 km/h
Construction began: 2008 November 4
Due to open: 2010 May 11

Pictures: http://bbs.scol.com.cn/viewthread.php?tid=835320
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Old May 8th, 2010, 04:57 AM   #2495
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaohua2000 View Post
Chengdu – Qingchengshan

Length: 65 km
Maximum speed: 200 km/h
Construction began: 2008 November 4
Due to open: 2010 May 11

Pictures: http://bbs.scol.com.cn/viewthread.php?tid=835320
Is this the new Chengdu? How many train stations are there in the city?

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Old May 8th, 2010, 05:27 AM   #2496
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Originally Posted by maldini View Post
Is this the new Chengdu? How many train stations are there in the city?

1. This is Chengdu's main railway station, also known as Chengdu's north railway station to locals, not "new" Chengdu station.

2. It depends on how you define the word "city". As of May 11, 2010, there will be 18 passenger stations less than 50 km away from Chengdu's main station:

Last edited by yaohua2000; May 8th, 2010 at 05:40 AM.
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Old May 8th, 2010, 07:51 AM   #2497
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Originally Posted by yaohua2000 View Post
1. This is Chengdu's main railway station, also known as Chengdu's north railway station to locals, not "new" Chengdu station.

2. It depends on how you define the word "city". As of May 11, 2010, there will be 18 passenger stations less than 50 km away from Chengdu's main station:
What I mean is that is there a new main train station in Chengdu, like Beijing south, that is part of the current highspeed railway project?

Like in this picture the Chengdu station does not look like there is a lot of platforms, and there are slower non-CRH trains at the station.

[IMG]http://i43.************/168szfc.jpg[/IMG]

Last edited by maldini; May 8th, 2010 at 08:01 AM.
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Old May 8th, 2010, 08:18 AM   #2498
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yes, there is. there were some pictures in China New Train Staions Concept topic but they are gone
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Old May 10th, 2010, 08:03 AM   #2499
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Bank of China to invest $1 bln in railway project

2010-5-10
Reuters

Bank of China said it plans to invest about $1 billion in a railway project, seeking to benefit from the government's infrastructure expansion scheme. The announcement came a month after China's third-biggest lender said it would invest $878 million in a state-owned firm building a high-speed railway linking Shanghai and Beijing.

Bank of China said in an exchange filing over the weekend that its Hong Kong-based unit, Bank of China Group Investment Ltd, planned to pay 7.5 billion yuan ($1.1 billion) for a 14.5 percent stake in a railway operator using foreign currencies. The company, to be established soon with 51.9 billion yuan in registered capital, will build a railway linking northern Shanxi and eastern Shandong provinces. "The investment is expected to generate reasonable return and will help the bank diversify its services," the Beijing-based lender said in a statement to the Shanghai Stock Exchange. "It will also help the bank win more businesses in China's large-scale railway investment and construction, which is in line with our development strategy."

China last year unveiled a $586 billion, infrastructure-focused stimulus package that boosted railway investment by 67 percent in 2009. Beijing will continue to boost railway investment, which had lagged economic growth in the past decade.

The Shanxi-Shandong railway, to be built over the next four years with total investment of 99.8 billion yuan, will be used mainly for transporting coal, Bank of China said in the statement.

Last month, Bank of China said it had agreed to buy a 4.5 percent stake in Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway Co. Planned investment in the 1,318-kilometre-long high-speed railway linking Beijing and Shanghai is 220.9 billion yuan.
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Old May 14th, 2010, 07:03 AM   #2500
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[QUOTE=conc.man;55823771]New generation CRH380 is coming! It's a real one showed at Railway Pavilion Shanghai Expo.

@ourail.com
image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


The design was mixed from japanese and european high speed train. and we look forward about this train.
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