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Old May 17th, 2010, 08:31 AM   #2581
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Old May 17th, 2010, 08:32 AM   #2582
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Sure, a far more authoritative source than your mouth.


A poor analogy, since you are comparing one of most innovative company of our time with world renowned pirates.


Are they happy with CRH380 too?


It's not like your response was ever productive. Thank you for not wasting my time.


The very fact that Chinese railway operators speed trains beyond their manufacturer's certified top service speed everyday shows the general disregard for safety in Chinese railway industry, like the rest of China.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 08:58 AM   #2583
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I was talking about ethics code aspect of religion. China is free of western ethics system, so you should not expect Chinese to behave in a manner you would expect from an individual originating from a western society.
Western ethics isn't that great, with the amount of people still believing in Christian values...

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I don't have to pray for it to happen; it is bound to happen.
Crystal balls aren't necessarily correct.

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There are a lot of people who would write that, not just me.
The other people in the KKK.

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And wait for the headline that reads "500 people dead from a Chinese bullet train accident"?
We're waiting for the for "HyperMiller is dead" headline.

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Chinese did not design the tracks and trains of China's high speed railways; they haven't been using the high speed railway system long enough to understand.
And there was an accident on the Shinkansen because it was the first HSR and the Japanese didn't understand it?

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You are telling us Siemens SOLD Velaro tech to the Chinese? You mean their bread and butter product?
Because we all know that the Chinese are so nice that they would pay that amount of money without getting the technology...
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Old May 17th, 2010, 01:52 PM   #2584
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That is if you trust the quality of Chinese inspection.


You are suggesting Chinese would inspect their trains three to four times as intensively as Europeans and Japanese. Something that's hard to believe.


Chinese did not design the tracks and trains of China's high speed railways; they haven't been using the high speed railway system long enough to understand.


Yes it does, a very accurate description of Chinese railway operation.
You have no facts to back up your wild claims. The Chinese did their own research and the new train parts can sustain 380km/h safely. These are not merely modifications to existing parts. These are brand new designs and tested for safety and reliability. The Chinese designed some of the best railway tracks now. Since the design speed is now 380km/h, these trains are safe and reliable.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 02:37 PM   #2585
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do you have more pics of the Shanghai-Nanjing PDL line?

Whatever people are arguing in this thread---China is doing a great job.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 03:51 PM   #2586
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@ HyperMiler

The quotations below are excerpted from a World Bank sponsored study tour (for Indian Railways) on China Railways in 2005.

http://siteresources.worldbank.org/I...hop21Nov05.pdf

"High reliability of assets, lack of speed restrictions and very few failures, continuous technology upgradation, very high standards of maintenance were reported by the field staff as well as by the higher management during our interaction."

"High speed & heavy haul routes are World Class conforming to international quality standards."

"Asset Reliability is very high, almost NO FAILURES!

  • Fully Mechanised Maintenance-
  • Track Laying
  • Tamping
  • Rail Grinding
  • Rail Flaw Detection
  • Track Inspection

Given the fact that the CRH trains are new and also foreign, you can bet that the operations and maintenance manuals have been studied very very closely
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Old May 17th, 2010, 03:59 PM   #2587
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Originally Posted by Restless View Post
@ HyperMiler

The quotations below are excerpted from a World Bank sponsored study tour (for Indian Railways) on China Railways in 2005.

http://siteresources.worldbank.org/I...hop21Nov05.pdf

"High reliability of assets, lack of speed restrictions and very few failures, continuous technology upgradation, very high standards of maintenance were reported by the field staff as well as by the higher management during our interaction."

"High speed & heavy haul routes are World Class conforming to international quality standards."

"Asset Reliability is very high, almost NO FAILURES!

  • Fully Mechanised Maintenance-
  • Track Laying
  • Tamping
  • Rail Grinding
  • Rail Flaw Detection
  • Track Inspection

Given the fact that the CRH trains are new and also foreign, you can bet that the operations and maintenance manuals have been studied very very closely
Thanks for posting this study - should be good enough for everyone.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 04:00 PM   #2588
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Originally Posted by Bandit View Post
Got proof of that?
Yes. http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=2366

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http://globe.asahi.com/feature/090202/03_2.html

Kawasaki's managing director actually protested the Chinese speeding of CRH2 series, saying that the maximum speed limit of E2 is 275 km/hr. Even worse, JR East originally agreed to teach the Chinese how to operate CRH2 for an upper speed limit of 200 km/hr.

Terrified by Chinese speeding on CRH2 beyond its design speed limit, JR East demanded, and received, a waiver document declaring that JR East is not responsible for any accident involving CRH2.

So it appears that CRH2C/380 are indeed speed upgrades independently made by the Chinese without Kawasaki/JR East's involvement. So why did Chinese pick E2 and not Velaro CN? Because it's much lighter, thus easier to speed up.
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Originally Posted by maldini View Post
The Chinese did their own research
Yea right.

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and the new train parts can sustain 380km/h safely.
This requires advanced metallurgy, a capability Chinese doesn't have, yet.

Chinese can't even produce high-strength steel sheets needed to build cars that pass US and EU auto crash test and these are imported from Japan, much less steel that could withstand the heat and stress of a continuous 380 km/hr operation.

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These are brand new designs and tested for safety and reliability.


Quote:
The Chinese designed some of the best railway tracks now.
You mean those German designed and Chinese built railways under German instruction.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 04:04 PM   #2589
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http://www.recordchina.co.jp/group.php?groupid=42174

Japanese will likely file IP infringement lawsuits if China brings its pirated bullet train designs to the US, according to US industrial sources.

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しかし米国内では、中国による技術の輸出については、知的財産権の問題を内包しているとの声も上がっており、日本が中国の高速鉄道は日本の技術を採用したものだと中国を提訴する可能性もある、と米一部企業は分析している。
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Old May 17th, 2010, 04:12 PM   #2590
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HM: random one-person-against-another accusations from random articles from random websites do not amount to substancial sources. Is it that hard to understand?

The World Bank sponsored study proves you wrong on every level. So stop this scaremongering campaign and mind your own business.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 04:16 PM   #2591
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China's Cut-Throat Railway Revolution

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...692969,00.html

China is spending mountains of money to expand its country's high-speed railway network and manufacture the world's fastest trains. But do its ambitions in the railway sector justify how these goals are being pursued -- and the risks they might ultimately pose?

With their elegant, white-and-blue exteriors, the super-high-speed trains lined up on the factory floor glitter like a school of barracudas. The opened front panels of the locomotives gape like hungry jaws as technicians in beige uniforms tend to what's inside.

Deputy chief engineer Lu Renyuan, 48, smiles proudly. These newly assembled bullet trains will soon leave the China South Locomotive & Rolling Stock (CSR) factory here in the northeastern Chinese city of Qingdao to race along new high-speed tracks at speeds of up to 350 kph (217 mph) -- in other words, faster than any other train line in the world. Similar trains already race back and forth between such major cities as Wuhan and Guangzhou, shortening the travel time between them from 11 hours to three.

These trains and their railways are only one step along the way in China's ongoing and ambitious race to catch up with its competitors. By focusing on incorporating foreign rail technology since 2004, the country has grown to become the most serious competitor to companies -- such as the German engineering giant Siemens -- that used to run laps around it when it came to such technologies.

At the moment, Western companies are still proudly showcasing their technology at the 2010 World Expo that just opened in Shanghai. They're still hoping for more contracts worth billions. And, as Siemens did at the expo's opening, they're still giving polite public thanks for being considered "an integral part of the Chinese economy."

Even so, CSR is simultaneously busy at work developing its own trains that can travel 380 kph (236 mph). The plan is for these new super-speedy trains to shorten the 1,300-kilometer (800-mile) stretch between Beijing and Shanghai from roughly 10 to just four hours by 2011.

When Clients Become Competitors

More than anything, the expansion of China's railway network has taught its competitors a lot about its sophistication and desire to expand. The one-time client has now become a competitor. And this is no where more evident that in the railway sector.

The new challenger to Germany's ICE, France's TGV and Japan's Shinkansen is called "Hexie." The word means "harmony" -- in a respectful bow toward President Hu Jintao and his constantly evoked idea of fostering a "harmonious society."

Beijing wants to use its new high-speed trains to bring the various parts of China's vast territory closer together. By 2020, its new rail network is set to increase in size from around 6,500 kilometers (4,000 miles) to 18,000 kilometers (11,000 miles). A web of high-speed train lines will connect the most important cities -- from north to south and east to west. In a later phase, planners even want to expand on a global scale, toward Southeast Asia and the West, even as far as London. And, of course, they want to use Chinese high-speed train technology in the process.

Until only recently, if you had told Western experts that China would evolve into a global technology leader, they most likely would have laughed. But now it's the Chinese who are laughing. Whether in Venezuela, Malaysia or Indonesia, their homeland has started aggressively bringing its own high-speed trains onto the export market. And, in doing so, it ruthlessly exploits the cutting-edge technology so recently imported into the country from the West.

In the US, for example, China hopes to win billions in contracts to help President Barack Obama upgrade his country's run-down rail network as part of his economic stimulus package. And, in Saudi Arabia, Siemens recently declined to go up against Chinese companies manufacturing much less expensive railways. Instead, the Munich-based company will merely bid on the high-speed line planned between Mecca and Medina as part of a Chinese-led consortium.

Unite, Divide and Conquer

Lu, the engineer, casts a sweeping glance across the factory work floor. Screws are neatly and carefully sorted by size in colorful plastic boxes, and not a speck of dust mars the perfect shine of the gray floors. Here in Lu's factory, everything has to be perfect -- because there's much more at stake for China than just high-speed trains.

Indeed, in a national tour de force, planners in the Communist Party and the Ministry of Railways have succeeded in doing what they also hope to achieve over the long term with automobiles, airplanes and other high-tech industries.

When it comes to rail technologies, the plan was simple: By using both the political bait of forming joint ventures and deft negotiating tactics, China attracted leading Western engineering companies to China -- such as Siemens from Germany, Alstom from France, Bombardier from Canada and Kawasaki from Japan. Once it had these foreign companies where it wanted them, it played them off against each other so that they would relinquish key pieces of technological know-how at a low price.

The exteriors of the Chinese trains easily betray their genetic heritage. The trains here in Qingdao, for example, bear a striking resemblance to Japan's Shinkansen trains. In Tangshan, a few hundred kilometers further northwest, a competitor called China Northern Rail got most of its technology from Siemens --and you can hardly tell the difference between its Hexie trains and Germany's ICEs.

Still, Lu insists that the bodies of the Hexie trains as well as their contact-line and signaling systems are all Chinese intellectual property. "For a long time," he says, "we have stood at the forefront of global high-speed technology."

Likewise, there are claims that it won't be long before the trains' external appearances bear hardly any resemblance to the ones that have been imported from abroad. For example, the trains on the high-speed line currently under construction between Beijing and Shanghai will reportedly have a very unique Chinese design.

Railway engineers in China are proud to point out that they have developed more than 940 of their own patents. Officials from the Beijing-based Ministry of Railways closely monitor train manufacturers to make sure that they share the knowledge they've acquired from other countries amongst each other and continue to jointly develop that know-how. Collaborative efforts like these take place, for example, in the modern research center located in the middle of Qingdao's massive 1.3-square-kilometer (0.5-square-mile) railway factory complex that is directly supervised by the government.

"Zizhu chuangxin," or "independent innovation," is the Chinese catchphrase for their system of further developing foreign technologies. When he wants to demonstrate the meaning of the concept, Lu leads visitors to the part of the factory work floor where axles are being assembled and points out their spotlessly clean steel wheels. With each increase in traveling speed, Lu explains, it's also necessary to reinforce the material with carbon -- thus creating a completely unique product.

The work floor is currently being expanded. In late 2009, the Qingdao factory was producing 120 high-speed trains each year. By June of this year, the factory hopes to boost that number to 200. To make this goal a reality, Lu and his co-workers almost labor around the clock. Indeed, Lu says he hardly has any time for his family, but that his wife can't complain because she works here in the Qingdao factory, too.

People working in China's railway industry almost behave as if they were part of one big family, as can be seen, for example, in the way they urge each other on in their joint attempt to outdo their Western competitors. As Lu sees it, this patriotic incentive is precisely what distinguishes his country from Germany. Having taken several extensive tours of German train factories, Lu has concluded that: "Deutsche Bahn thinks first and foremost about Deutsche Bahn, and Siemens first and foremost about Siemens." "But, in China," he adds, "each person thinks about how we can all advance our nation together."

China 's Railway Boom

Zhao Xiaogang views things in very much the same way. The 59-year-old general manager of CSR receives visitors at the company's new headquarters in Beijing. A lanky man, he doesn't look like the head of the country's largest manufacturer of locomotives and railway cars. But, during the first quarter of 2010 alone, he has succeeded in boosting the company's net earnings by the equivalent of €39 million ($51 million) -- or 85 percent more than the company earned in the same period of 2009.

Since the outbreak of the global financial crisis, China's train manufacturers have been working with even more of a tailwind. As part of its efforts to further spur on the economic boom, Beijing plans to invest around €78 billion each year between now and 2012 toward expanding its railway network. Granted, high-speed trains on several routes, such as the one connecting Beijing and Tianjin, are operating at a considerable financial loss. But that's doesn't concern Zhao -- because that's where the government steps in.

A Need for Speed

Zhao, who has a degree in engineering, is driven by the ambition to keep setting new records with his trains. He becomes unexpectedly animated when he starts to discuss the noise levels in all classes of trains. China strictly adheres to European noise restrictions, he says, but his trains can travel 350 kph -- instead of 270 kph -- while maintaining a higher standard of comfort. "When I rode the Eurostar," Zhao recounts, "it shook so much I had to hold onto my seat." In China's newly developed trains, he says by way of comparison, he can walk around comfortably even at 350 kph.

Still, though its trains might be breaking records for speed, China is still assuming higher levels of risks than its foreign competitors. "Ensuring continued safety remains China's greatest challenge," says Sun Zhang, a transportation expert at Shanghai's Tongji University. Indeed, the country's Japanese competitors -- who have run the world's safest high-speed train network for 46 years -- go so far as to accuse China of risking lives in its manic pursuit of speed.

Zhao's engineers are already testing an even faster Hexie train -- a lightning-quick model capable of traveling 550 kph -- at the state-run railway laboratory in Qingdao. In October, the company hopes to set its next world record -- 600 kph. No one has ever flown so low.

Translated from the German by Ella Ornstein


------------------------

It's interesting that they didn't mention that the CSR Sifang railway complex in Qingdao has 2000 R&D employees assigned to high-speed train development, so it would appear that Japan has a lot less people dedicated to Shinkansen development. Anyone have any comments?

I also recall that CNR are investing in an even larger railway R&D and manufacturing complex in Jilin.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 04:19 PM   #2592
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The World Bank sponsored study proves you wrong on every level. So stop this scaremongering campaign and mind your own business.
In case you haven't noticed the frequency of his posts and the hours of day they were issued, you should take a better look: THIS is his business. He doesn't do anything else in his life, at least in the last three weeks.
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it would appear that Japan has a lot less people dedicated to Shinkansen development. Anyone have any comments?
Is that a serious question? Like you don't know WHO's going to comment...
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Old May 17th, 2010, 04:33 PM   #2593
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High-speed boost to railways, CRC
By Tong Hao (China Daily)
Updated: 2009-05-25 08:01

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bw/2009...nt_7937539.htm


Northeastern Jilin province is building China's largest manufacturing base for high-speed trains to meet the country's growing need for speedy railway transport.

The base is scheduled for completion in June next year and will have an annual production capacity of 500 ordinary passenger train cars, 800 China Railway High-speed (CRH) train cars (for trains with speeds of more than 200 kilometers an hour) and 800 intra-city train cars (for trains with speeds of more than 120 km an hour).

The manufacturing base was launched last May. Changchun Railway Vehicles Co Ltd (CRC), in the capital city of Jilin, will spend 2.5 billion yuan to complete the project.

The cars for the new Beijing-Shanghai high-speed rail trains (the first that will run over 350 km an hour) will be built in the base by October 2010.

According to the 11th Five-Year Plan (2006-2010), the number of CRH trains will increase to about 1,000 in 2010. There are currently 200 in the country, most of which started service in 2007.

The five-year plan also urges technological upgrading of high-speed trains, raising the percentage of homemade parts in the trains and speeding up research and development (R&D).

The manufacturing base includes a test center and R&D laboratory and CRC works with France's Alsthom Ltd and Germany's Siemens to design and produce the trains, according to the company's website.

The percentage of homemade parts in the trains for the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed rail produced by CRC will likely be 85 percent, said the xinhuanet.com.

According to a news release during this year's National People's Congress and Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference in March, 45 percent of the 4-trillion-yuan stimulus package unveiled last year, or 1.8 trillion yuan, will be allocated for building railways, roads and airports. Demand for trains, especially high-speed trains, is high.

China invested 118.04 billion yuan in fixed railway assets during the first four months of 2009, a 127.9 percent year-on-year increase, according the Ministry of Railways (MOR) website.

Liu Zhijun, minister of Railways said in a meeting on Dec 31, 2008 that total investment in the railway network in 2009 would be 600 billion yuan in 2009, almost twice as much as in 2008.

Liu said the ministry currently has 70 railway projects planned for 2009 and 5,148 km of rail line will be built this year.

The MOR will spend 500 billion yuan purchasing trains over the next four years as the rail network continues to develop, the MOR said earlier in 2008.

In March 2009, the MOR made a 39.2 billion yuan purchasing agreement with China CNR Corp Ltd, the controlling company of CRC. According to the agreement, CNR will produce 100 high-speed trains (40 from CRC) for the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed Railway, which will be put into operation in 2011.

Demand for trains on the new Beijing-Shanghai line will probably grow quickly and the MOR will likely purchase more high-speed trains, according to Zhang Shuguang, chief of the transportation department of the MOR.

The new Beijing-Shanghai line is part of the seventh rail system upgrade in China since 1997.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 05:08 PM   #2594
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It's interesting that they didn't mention that the CSR Sifang railway complex in Qingdao has 2000 R&D employees assigned to high-speed train development, so it would appear that Japan has a lot less people dedicated to Shinkansen development. Anyone have any comments?
Numbers can be misleading, since each of these Chinese workers are much less efficient than their foreign counterparts.

For example, BYD claims to have 5,000 engineers working on electric car battery alone, yet hardly any break-through came out of it with BYD batteries being the worst and least competitive battery in the automotive world in spite of their low cost. It's so bad that even Chinese auto makers bypass BYD batteries for foreign batteries, and all BYD bids on overseas EV project failed.

Similar force is at work here, with Chinese easily defeated by foreign forces numbering 1/10th.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 05:24 PM   #2595
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Gee, I really do not know how many engineers are studying HSR and/or railroad technology in general in Japan but I do know the institute that is doing bulk of it for JR.

Here is a link to Railway Technical Research Institute, if you go through their web site you'll find they do various research concerning railroad technology and also related areas associated.

You may also find the quarterly review interesting.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 05:35 PM   #2596
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Another thing to add.

The word "engineer" in Chinese is not equivalent to the world "engineer" in English, for Chinese definition includes graduates from 2-year technical colleges and even technical high schools, unlike the US definition of someone who holds bachelor's or master's degree in engineering from a reputable university.

This is why nothing impressive is coming out of Chinese research effort, because these "engineers" should be translated as "technicians" in English. Having 5,000 technicians in one place will not produce a great new product, unlike another room with 10 engineers with Master's and Ph'D degrees.

Chinese are big in numbers, but are desperately short on talent.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 05:41 PM   #2597
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
Numbers can be misleading, since each of these Chinese workers are much less efficient than their foreign counterparts.

For example, BYD claims to have 5,000 engineers working on electric car battery alone, yet hardly any break-through came out of it with BYD batteries being the worst and least competitive battery in the automotive world in spite of their low cost. It's so bad that even Chinese auto makers bypass BYD batteries for foreign batteries, and all BYD bids on overseas EV project failed.

Similar force is at work here, with Chinese easily defeated by foreign forces numbering 1/10th.
Lol. You really do talk out of your arse.

Given the lack of authoritative evidence, I'd actually argue that the R&D guys at Sifang are more productive because they they recruit the best talent in China, spend a lot more time working and receive all the resources they ever need. The only thing that is missing is experience, because many are still very new.

Also, what does BYD have to do with trains? That's like comparing Chrysler to General Electric

You'll also love this article

Daimler, BYD Plan Electric Car for China

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...stryCollection
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Old May 17th, 2010, 05:58 PM   #2598
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Also, what does BYD have to do with trains?
I was commenting on the quality of Chinese engineers and engineering. BYD is the best known Chinese tech company to westerners because of its association with Warren Buffet, so I used it.

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Daimler, BYD Plan Electric Car for China
Yes, for China and China only, since Daimler's EVs for Europe and the US will use Daimler's inhouse battery or NEC's battery from NEC-Nissan battery joint venture(of Nissan Leaf fame).
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Old May 17th, 2010, 07:03 PM   #2599
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Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
Sure, a far more authoritative source than your mouth.


A poor analogy, since you are comparing one of most innovative company of our time with world renowned pirates.


Are they happy with CRH380 too?


It's not like your response was ever productive. Thank you for not wasting my time.


The very fact that Chinese railway operators speed trains beyond their manufacturer's certified top service speed everyday shows the general disregard for safety in Chinese railway industry, like the rest of China.
Do you know how many IP lawsuits does that "innovative company" of Apple have filed against it??? Of course not.

My analogy is just perfect and your source is an crybaby, nothing more. Ohh wait.. are you his son? Because it would have made perfect sense.

By the way, Chinese has the best high speed network on the World. It is fastest, longest and most modern one. And there is absolutely nothing you can do about this. They will be the ones who will shape this technology in the future, too. And again, there is absolutely nothing you can do about this.

But, hey thanks for the laughs tough. You are just a perfect example of a forum troll and a person with a China phobia. "A" for that
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Old May 17th, 2010, 07:28 PM   #2600
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I was commenting on the quality of Chinese engineers and engineering. BYD is the best known Chinese tech company to westerners because of its association with Warren Buffet, so I used it.
I could also say that GM is one of the best known companies in the US and it's products are generally a piece of crap. So by your logic, I've just insulted US engineers in general.


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Originally Posted by HyperMiler View Post
Yes, for China and China only, since Daimler's EVs for Europe and the US will use Daimler's inhouse battery or NEC's battery from NEC-Nissan battery joint venture(of Nissan Leaf fame).
It's more like Daimler is keeping its options open, whilst BYD are keen to absorb what they can from Daimler in terms of carmaking (NB. BYD Auto was only founded in 2003)


In 10years time, who knows what the industrial landscape will look like?

Remember that "Made in Japan/Taiwan/Korea" was once a byline for cheap and low quality. LOL
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