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Old May 28th, 2010, 12:45 PM   #2741
Peloso
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
It's pretty much a meaningless sentence. In fact, the MOR has been claiming this for CRH2 and CRH3. But as is well known, not only the basic design of CRH3 stems from Siemens, but some of the most essential components are still being imported.
I believe it is time to move on from this absurd concept, the "basic design" of any train "stems" from Sir Stephenson, yet every train is different from each other. The fact that "some of the most essential components are still being imported" is equally non-relevant here, since this can also be said for a good share of modern car, or aircraft, production (aircrafts' engines coming from different firms and countries) yet no one would dare to say that an Airbus is not genuinely European-made because it uses General Electric engines.
The only fact that's relevant is law, and property rights. If the Chinese own the property rights then it's a Chinese train. If someone wants to start a meaningless rant about "originality" then I'll just have to point out that originality, and the designers' "genius", is something that can be bought or sold, in fact Siemens did not "create" its trains, some unnamed designers projected them based on previous creations, and they sold the project to Siemens exactly as well as Siemens sold it to the Chinese, before the latter started further modifying it.
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Old May 28th, 2010, 12:48 PM   #2742
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Well I hope the train targeting 380km/h has modified cooling system for both motor and trans since the Fastech 360 relied on water jacket cooling system which was first of it's kind for trains if I recall.
Unless the motors and trans are built with superconductive material(which I doubt) they will literary start to melt like overclocked CPUs without exotic cooling systems.
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Old May 28th, 2010, 01:17 PM   #2743
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
What's the point of the rest of your long-winded post? admit your mistake and move on. Life is short.
You really do have a terrible attitude. You make good posts but then also treat people with no respect for no reason, trolls excepted.

[puts tin hat on]
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Old May 28th, 2010, 02:21 PM   #2744
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peloso View Post
I believe it is time to move on from this absurd concept, the "basic design" of any train "stems" from Sir Stephenson, yet every train is different from each other. The fact that "some of the most essential components are still being imported" is equally non-relevant here, since this can also be said for a good share of modern car, or aircraft, production (aircrafts' engines coming from different firms and countries) yet no one would dare to say that an Airbus is not genuinely European-made because it uses General Electric engines.
The only fact that's relevant is law, and property rights. If the Chinese own the property rights then it's a Chinese train. If someone wants to start a meaningless rant about "originality" then I'll just have to point out that originality, and the designers' "genius", is something that can be bought or sold, in fact Siemens did not "create" its trains, some unnamed designers projected them based on previous creations, and they sold the project to Siemens exactly as well as Siemens sold it to the Chinese, before the latter started further modifying it.
First of all, I don't want to dismiss what the chinese have done to modify the trains and technologies they essentially bought in order to enhance the performance and overcome problems unique to China's geographical conditions etc. There is an immense amount of work and small-scale innovations necessary to achieve what they achieved, and I'd be the first to acknowledge that.

But, I think the claim about ownership of intellectual rights by the MOR is more rhetoric than substance (at least for CRH2 and CRH3, there is still too little information on the CRH380s). There are two aspects to this problem.

On the legal side, patents and intellectual rights are held only if they withstand challenges in court. The MOR has no doubt registered many patents in China, but whether these patents will result in recognitions by foreign competitors, and whether, when they are challenged (say in a case where China attempts to export one of these trains for which they claim intellectual rights), they can withstand judicial challenges, it remains to be seen. In fact, there are already reports that the Japanese are prepared to sue if China exports some variants of the CRH2 to the US.

On the more substantive side, the claim of intellectual rights is meant to create the impression that China is now capable of designing and making its own trains. Now "able to design and to make one's own trains" is of course a vague concept. One may depend more or less on others for design and manufacturing. But I think it is pretty clear that, in the case of the first generation CRH3 at least, the concept of self-engineering and manufacturing does not apply: Siemens engineers were present in all of the manufacturing processes, design blueprint were given by Siemens, the essential components were imported from Siemens.

The point is not that one has to do absolutely everything by oneself to be entitled to the claim of being able to make one's own trains. If CRH380A now turns out to be significantly different from CRH3, China will have more claim to having produced its "own trains". The problem is that, from the little that we know so far, CRH3-based CRH380A still closely resembles CRH3 and hence Velaro in appearance, and we practically know nothing about the inside of CRH380A.

So we'll just have to wait for more information about the new CRH380As, and I am curious to see if China's effort to export HSR in fact lead to legal disputes.
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Old May 28th, 2010, 03:53 PM   #2745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post

[puts tin hat on]
No need for that, I am actually a very amicable person It's just that when writing on the internet, I like to keep it short and to the point, so that what I write may come across as curt and brusque. It's completely different when I am having a beer
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Old May 28th, 2010, 04:23 PM   #2746
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Photos of the Real CRH2-380?

at the following page of a chinese railway fan forum:

http://www.railwayfan.net/viewthread...&extra=&page=4

photos are posted that are apparently of the "real" CRH2-380, which is not the same as the one shown at the Expo in Shanghai.

The problem is that, these photos can only be viewed by members of the forum with special viewing right, which I do not have. Can anyone verify if these photos are new, and if so, can they post them here? Thanks.
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Old May 28th, 2010, 04:29 PM   #2747
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jeeeez...I´m really happy that I´m not taking part in this discussion.

However, I think its really interesting to see whats going on in china right now.
Its a whole new epoch in railway history.
Not only in scale, but also in construction speed.
In ten years from now, China will be the very heart of high speed railways, and Europa and Japan will be some sort of small appedixes.

[However...i really hope that china soon shifts towards maglev.....
The distances in China (in contrast to japan, France and Germany) are just too big, to be covered even with 380 kmh trains.]

So, keep on posting these awesome pictures, I cant get enough of them
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Old May 28th, 2010, 04:56 PM   #2748
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Official Speed Limit on the Wugang Line!

I bumped into this document at a railway fan's forum. It's apparently the official list of sections of the Wugang HSR line that are subject to speed limit, as well as reasons for the speed limit:



The parts of the document that I can understand:

1) points on the Wugang-line are designated in the format Ka + b, which apparently means: the b-th meter after the a-th kilometer.

2) the end points of the Wugang-line are designated by K1224+000 and K2295+599 respectively, so that the total distance is 1071 kilometers plus 599 meters.

3) The only sections having speed limit below 350km/h are at the two ends of the line:

(a) between K1224+000 and K1231+335, which is the first 5.335 kilometers of the line;

(b) between K2249+233 and K2295+599, which is the last 46.366 kilometers of the line;

4) the speed limit on the rest 1000 kilometers of the line is 350km/h.

What I don't understand are the reasons given for the speed limits at various sections.
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Old May 28th, 2010, 05:48 PM   #2749
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speed limits are always lower at the edges in order for the train to stop when it makes it into the station
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Old May 28th, 2010, 05:54 PM   #2750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbaricManchurian View Post
speed limits are always lower at the edges in order for the train to stop when it makes it into the station
Yes, but that's not the interesting part of the document. What is interesting is that there are no sections apart from the two ends where speed reduction is required.
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Old May 28th, 2010, 05:58 PM   #2751
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thats cuz the tracks are just that high quality with no excessive curves that there is no slowdown needed anywhere How else would they attain an average speed of 314km/h?
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Old May 28th, 2010, 06:01 PM   #2752
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Originally Posted by BarbaricManchurian View Post
thats cuz the tracks are just that high quality with no excessive curves that there is no slowdown needed anywhere How else would they attain an average speed of 314km/h?
Probably. But I won't speculate on the "how else". I just thought it is an interesting piece of detail about the Wuguang line.
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Old May 29th, 2010, 08:12 AM   #2753
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HIGH-SPEED TRAIN WHISKS TOURISM AND BUSINESS TO FUJIAN PROVINCE
27 May 2010
China Daily

On April 26 the Fuzhou-Xiamen High-speed Railway officially opened.

The bullet train, with a speed of 250 km reduces the travel time from Fuzhou, capital of Fujian province, to Xiamen, located on the coast looking out over the Taiwan Straits, to 1.5 hours, and is hoped to boost business ties between Fujian and Taiwan.

Director of the Information Office of Fujian Zhu Qing said: "Xiamen Island and the Yangtze and Pearl river deltas can be connected. In addition, the construction of the railway will make communication easier between the Chinese mainland and Taiwan."

The new railway is a part of the long-term planning of the railway network of China. It will connect with the Ningbo-Taizhou-Wenzhou and Wenzhou-Fuzhou high-speed railways, opened in 2009 and will also link with Nanzhang-Putian, Shanghai-Hangzhou, and Xiamen-Shenzhen railways, which are still under construction.

These railways form a triangular railway network between southeast China's coastal cities and cover a total mileage of 1,650 km.

Invested by Ministry of Railways and Fujian provincial government, the Fuzhou-Xiamen railway alone covers 275 km and has 13 stations in total.

Zhu explained: "In ancient times, Fujian was located on the war front, which negatively affected the economic well-being of people there. I hope the building of the Fuzhou-Xiamen High-speed Railway will ease access between mainlanders and Taiwanese."

Tong Yongzhao, deputy director of Nanchang Railway Bureau, noted: "The Fujian High-speed Railway helps to increase the level of industrialization and urbanization, providing efficient transportation for the society of the west coast, which boosts economic development of Fujian and inland China."

Fujian Tourism Department has introduced a special tourist route for Taiwan tourists to travel in Fujian and to take the bullet train to the Shanghai Expo.

This not only connects Taiwan tourists with their place of origin, Fujian, but also gives them an opportunity to experience the bullet train, as well as the Shanghai Expo.
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Old May 29th, 2010, 10:34 AM   #2754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
No need for that, I am actually a very amicable person It's just that when writing on the internet, I like to keep it short and to the point, so that what I write may come across as curt and brusque. It's completely different when I am having a beer
It's doesn't merely come across as curt or brusque, it's just rude. Plain and simple.

You appear to be a very valuable contributor to this thread, but please try doing so more politely.
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Old May 29th, 2010, 10:50 AM   #2755
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
Probably. But I won't speculate on the "how else". I just thought it is an interesting piece of detail about the Wuguang line.
Where is the document you are talking about?
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Old May 29th, 2010, 12:23 PM   #2756
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Originally Posted by maldini View Post
Where is the document you are talking about?
I found the document on the following thread at ourail.com:

http://bbs.ourail.com/thread-60841-1-1.html

I don't know its ultimate origin, but it looked to me like a piece of official document. What do you think?
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Old May 30th, 2010, 03:31 AM   #2757
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The 380 train rolled off the production line!
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Old May 30th, 2010, 04:19 AM   #2758
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I have complied a new youtube video about the two models of CRH380A to released public. It includes the news clip and pictures from expo.

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Old May 30th, 2010, 10:19 AM   #2759
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Every passenger-dedicated rail line I've seen listed on Wikipedia has 350 km/h as the maximum designed speed, with about 320 km/h as the top actual speed, so can we really expect this CRH 380 to result in speed increases?
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Old May 30th, 2010, 01:07 PM   #2760
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Probably, I read that 350 is the sustained running speed, 380 is max in normal service for CRH380 in some areas where the track allows.
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