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Old June 11th, 2010, 10:05 PM   #2821
sickasick
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The Yichang-Lichuan section is part of the Shanghai-Wuhan-Chengdu HSR. i think the designed speed upon opening is 160km/h, and will be upgraded to 200km/h in the future.

this is the only part of Shanghai-Wuhan-Chengdu HSR with a designed speed less than 200km/h, simply because of the construction difficulties. for example, to dig one 10km of tunnel in Qiyue Mountain, workers had to drain 63 million m^3 of water within the tunnel, about the same amount of water in a medium reservoir

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is this a highspeed line?
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Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
On wiki it says: Mixed passenger & freight HSR connecting Yichang & Lichuan; 200km/h.
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Old June 12th, 2010, 03:19 PM   #2822
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Vactrains

There was an interview with a member of the Chinese Academy of Sciences - a certain Mr. 沈志云 (Shen Zhiyun) - on the research currently being done in China on next generation railway systems. It was posted on ourrail.com at

http://bbs.ourail.com/thread-71560-1-1.html

Unfortunately it is in Chinese and I don't have time to translate the whole thing in full. Some interesting points mentioned there are:

1) The chinese are currently doing research on trains capable of running at 500km/h or more, and in experiments, they have achieved 600km/h;

2) Mr. Shen admits readily that currently no trains can achieve 400km/h in commercial operations, mostly due to energy inefficiency and damaging effects on the environment;

3) He nonetheless says that such high-speed experiments are useful, for two reasons: (a) it provides valuable data for trains running at speeds below 400km/h, and (b) it will help to achieve the first stage development of the vactrain concept currently being experimented with in China.

4) The vactrain concept is being taken seriously in China, and they want to approach it in three stages: (a) first convert the current conventional high-speed passenger-dedicated lines, by constructing a tube around them, in which a low-level vacuum (10% of the atmospheric pressure at sea level) will be maintained. At this stage, trains will be able to achieve (commercially viable speed of) 600km/h; (b) in a second stage, they plan to experiment with maglev trains with low-level vacuum environment. The achievable speed at this stage is 1000km/h; (c) in a final stage, high-level vacuum will be combined with maglev technology to achieve the speed of 4000km/h.

5) By the end of this year, the National Laboratory for Rail-Transport Technology will finish construction at the South-West Transport University. They plan to test in this laboratory small-scale models for (presumably the first stage) vactrains in the next 2-3 years.

It is all in all fascinating that the Chinese are taking concrete steps to realize the vactrain concept.
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Old June 12th, 2010, 03:38 PM   #2823
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
There was an interview with a member of the Chinese Academy of Sciences - a certain Mr. 沈志云 (Shen Zhiyun) - on the research currently being done in China on next generation railway systems. It was posted on ourrail.com at

http://bbs.ourail.com/thread-71560-1-1.html

Unfortunately it is in Chinese and I don't have time to translate the whole thing in full. Some interesting points mentioned there are:

1) The chinese are currently doing research on trains capable of running at 500km/h or more, and in experiments, they have achieved 600km/h;

2) Mr. Shen admits readily that currently no trains can achieve 400km/h in commercial operations, mostly due to energy inefficiency and damaging effects on the environment;

3) He nonetheless says that such high-speed experiments are useful, for two reasons: (a) it provides valuable data for trains running at speeds below 400km/h, and (b) it will help to achieve the first stage development of the vactrain concept currently being experimented with in China.

4) The vactrain concept is being taken seriously in China, and they want to approach it in three stages: (a) first convert the current conventional high-speed passenger-dedicated lines, by constructing a tube around them, in which a low-level vacuum (10% of the atmospheric pressure at sea level) will be maintained. At this stage, trains will be able to achieve (commercially viable speed of) 600km/h; (b) in a second stage, they plan to experiment with maglev trains with low-level vacuum environment. The achievable speed at this stage is 1000km/h; (c) in a final stage, high-level vacuum will be combined with maglev technology to achieve the speed of 4000km/h.

5) By the end of this year, the National Laboratory for Rail-Transport Technology will finish construction at the South-West Transport University. They plan to test in this laboratory small-scale models for (presumably the first stage) vactrains in the next 2-3 years.

It is all in all fascinating that the Chinese are taking concrete steps to realize the vactrain concept.
Trains running in a tunnel of vacuum is a pipe dream and running a wheel on steel rail in vacuum is meaningless since it still receive resistance from the track also known as traction as well as it needs to cope with mass of bogies.
If this person who has the sense to admit that commercially running a train at 600km/h is not feasible should certainly understand that maintaining a vacuum of any extended length is equally not economically feasible.
I say he is just trying to milk some research money.
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Old June 12th, 2010, 06:22 PM   #2824
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
Trains running in a tunnel of vacuum is a pipe dream and running a wheel on steel rail in vacuum is meaningless since it still receive resistance from the track also known as traction as well as it needs to cope with mass of bogies.
If this person who has the sense to admit that commercially running a train at 600km/h is not feasible should certainly understand that maintaining a vacuum of any extended length is equally not economically feasible.
I say he is just trying to milk some research money.
Maybe, maybe not. Is it economically feasible to rely on depletable fossil fuel, where the price will rise as they empty? I am talking in the long-run, i.e 40-50 years to even 100 years. Unlike airplanes, the trains can go on electric power, and I suppose the tubes can be "vacuumed" also by using electric power. That means we can use nuclear/renewable energy to power them. Relying on oil/gas might not affect the climate in our life time, but what about the next hundred years?

If we can stop relying on oil/gas, it will be economically feasible to build these tubes. When developing countries like China, India and whole continents like Africa and South America achieves the same (or higher) living standards as the West today, it goes without saying that oil/gas will be under pressure. People and the earth will also feel it through the pollution.

No-one here knows if these vactrains will be realised, but I think it's important to do research on it nevertheless. If we don't try, we can never find out!
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Old June 12th, 2010, 08:42 PM   #2825
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Originally Posted by hkhui View Post
When developing countries like China, India and whole continents like Africa and South America achieves the same (or higher) living standards as the West today, it goes without saying that oil/gas will be under pressure. People and the earth will also feel it through the pollution.
"Under pressure" is quite an understatement. It is a proven FACT that the Earth does not have the resources to provide everyone with a western standard of living.
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Old June 12th, 2010, 08:55 PM   #2826
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"Under pressure" is quite an understatement. It is a proven FACT that the Earth does not have the resources to provide everyone with a western standard of living.
It's not all that simple. Of course all of the world has a potential to achieve Western standards of living. It's only that it won't happen in the same way as it is today (or yesterday) and neither it will be the same for the West. Just look at things surrounding you. Even the most luxury cars today use loads of plastic details even where they were unimaginable 20 years ago ("cheap"). I was surprised myself to find out that BMW X6 has a front grille made of... plastic. Similar examples can be found in every area of life today. The FACT is that the way we live will have to be changed and this means more efficiency, more saving, alternative (cheaper, cleaner, easier to get etc.) materials. It's been happening for decades now and this is why you are using a laptop, why everyone's got a smartphone and why everyone's driving a car these days. The "size" of resources is a very uncertain, relative and interpretative measure.
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Old June 12th, 2010, 10:46 PM   #2827
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(slightly off-topic)
Just think of how much paper we have saved by using email e.g. How much more productive a worker can be by using the internet. I'm not a pessimist regarding the future, new inventions improve our lives from time to time. If we could master renewable energy, I'm sure the world will be a MUCH better place. We might even head for the stars then, developing colonies on Mars etc

It is imperative that we continue to develop and invent new stuff like this Vactrain..
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Old June 13th, 2010, 04:06 AM   #2828
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Hainan Donghuan Railway completed

http://www.gov.cn/jrzg/2010-06/11/content_1626103.htm



Hainan Donghuan (East Ring) Railway

Haikou-Sanya
Length: 308 km
Maximum speed: 200 km/h
Investment: CN¥20 billion
Due for operation in October 2010

Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_...Intercity_Rail
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Old June 13th, 2010, 02:21 PM   #2829
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
Trains running in a tunnel of vacuum is a pipe dream
Says you. I'd trust a member of the Chinese Academy of Sciences over a random internet forum member any day.


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Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
and running a wheel on steel rail in vacuum is meaningless since it still receive resistance from the track also known as traction as well as it needs to cope with mass of bogies.
I am not sure you know what you are talking about. At speeds above 300km/h, the most resistance a conventional high-speed train receives comes from drag, not from friction on the rails, which remains pretty much constant as speeds go up.

The reason they are aiming at 600km/h for the first stage of the concept, I assume, is because the trains will still operate in 10% of the air density of the atmosphere near earth surface. And you realize that it's only the first stage of the program.


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should certainly understand that maintaining a vacuum of any extended length is equally not economically feasible.
Possibly, but I don't know the facts, nor can I judge the technological potential for improving the economics of vacuum maintenance. On what basis do you make such judgments?
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Old June 13th, 2010, 02:31 PM   #2830
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoosier View Post
"Under pressure" is quite an understatement. It is a proven FACT that the Earth does not have the resources to provide everyone with a western standard of living.
At the current rate of increase with current technology and fuels that is.

More efficient and renewable energy generation (nuclear, solar) can change that.
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Old June 13th, 2010, 03:28 PM   #2831
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
Says you. I'd trust a member of the Chinese Academy of Sciences over a random internet forum member any day.
First of all this is not about nationalism, whether it be Chinese, Japanese, German or French I would respond the same way.
Maintaining a vacuum for extended period of time for an extended distance for commercial purpose is a pipe dream.
You'll need to keep in mind that you'll need doors for entrance and exit from the train.
Air will always seep in through connecting segments as well as hinges of doors so you need to keep on pumping out the air that seeps in. It's like trying to pail out water from a ship that has a hole in the hull.

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Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
I am not sure you know what you are talking about. At speeds above 300km/h, the most resistance a conventional high-speed train receives comes from drag, not from friction on the rails, which remains pretty much constant as speeds go up.
Second a train going 600Km/h is meaningless since it requires more than 3.5 times the amount of energy that's going at 320km/h within the same condition. You'll also need to apply more then that amount of energy on to the tracks to gain that speed to compensate slippage between track and wheels, but more over you'll need to pump in that much energy into the copper coils that's inside the motor.
I assure you normal conductive material will melt at those energy input level.
The only way you can over come it is to use super conductive material but if you're going to use super conductive material then going straight to maglev would be more practical.

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Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
The reason they are aiming at 600km/h for the first stage of the concept, I assume, is because the trains will still operate in 10% of the air density of the atmosphere near earth surface. And you realize that it's only the first stage of the program.
Same as above.
Trying to maintain 10% density for an extended amount of time over an extended distance with multiple doors is a pipe dream.


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Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
Possibly, but I don't know the facts, nor can I judge the technological potential for improving the economics of vacuum maintenance. On what basis do you make such judgments?
Negative pressure will always try to pull in gas to equalize pressure level.
Even with rubber packings, with doors opening and closing there will always be gas leaking in, connecting segments will always have cracks.
The material we use to construct exhausts gas, the ground exhausts gas,
To compensate you'll constantly need to pump out the air that had entered consuming energy.
All this and you also need to maintain the rail and other facility within the tunnel in a pressurized suit making the exercise more hazardous then it is already.
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Old June 13th, 2010, 04:38 PM   #2832
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First of all this is not about nationalism, whether it be Chinese, Japanese, German or French I would respond the same way.
Well, fist of all, I don't know where you get "nationalism" from. The contrast is between a random internet forum member (namely YOU), and a member of the Chinese Academy of Sciences. I don't know and don't care what nationality you are. But you are a random internet forum member, so I don't take you seriously. It's that simple. So take a deep breath, and don't cry "nationalism" at the first opportunity.

Secondly, you haven't said anything in your long-winded post beyond rough conjectures based on high-school physics. Your post simply confirms that you don't have any cutting edge research experience in vacuum-maintenance. So I don't see why I should take you seriously, as opposed to a member of the Chinese Academy of Sciences.

Thirdly, your post again demonstrates that you cannot read (remember your post on the AGV thread?), that's why you wrote "a train going 600Km/h is meaningless since it requires more than 3.5 times the amount of energy that's going at 320km/h within the same condition."
.......Read my post again. The first stage of the program is to achieve 600km/h in low vacuum conditions. The point is, again, low-vacuum condition drastically reduces the major resistance a train going beyond 300km/h would experience under normal conditions, namely drag. The resistance friction represents, again, is pretty much constant as the speeds go up.

Finally, of course there are engineering challenges even for the first stage of their program. I am sure heat is one of them. If there were no challenges, the first vactrains would have been up and running a long time ago.
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Old June 13th, 2010, 06:09 PM   #2833
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
Thirdly, your post again demonstrates that you cannot read (remember your post on the AGV thread?), that's why you wrote "a train going 600Km/h is meaningless since it requires more than 3.5 times the amount of energy that's going at 320km/h within the same condition."
.......Read my post again. The first stage of the program is to achieve 600km/h in low vacuum conditions. The point is, again, low-vacuum condition drastically reduces the major resistance a train going beyond 300km/h would experience under normal conditions, namely drag. The resistance friction represents, again, is pretty much constant as the speeds go up.

Finally, of course there are engineering challenges even for the first stage of their program. I am sure heat is one of them. If there were no challenges, the first vactrains would have been up and running a long time ago.
Oh boy.
Not even able to understand simple high school physics.
Yeah ok, whatever you say.
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Old June 13th, 2010, 06:11 PM   #2834
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Chengdu-Dujiangyan HSR

It was opened on 12th of May. 65 km length, 15 stations, 220 km/h maximum speed.

The trains are supposed to cover the distance in 30 minutes. Can someone explain how it is possible?
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Old June 13th, 2010, 07:48 PM   #2835
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
It was opened on 12th of May. 65 km length, 15 stations, 220 km/h maximum speed.

The trains are supposed to cover the distance in 30 minutes. Can someone explain how it is possible?

If it doesn't stop in all 15 stations it is very possible.

So, I believe this 30min figure is for an express train. If it stops in all stations it should be more.
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Old June 13th, 2010, 07:50 PM   #2836
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Oh boy.
Not even able to understand simple high school physics.
Yeah ok, whatever you say.

This is a research project. They are working on its feasibility. I bet if you have lived in 60s you wouldn't believe people could have gone to moon.
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Old June 13th, 2010, 07:59 PM   #2837
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Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
If it doesn't stop in all 15 stations it is very possible.

So, I believe this 30min figure is for an express train. If it stops in all stations it should be more.
Does anybody know the actual schedule, and what the trip time is with all stops?
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Old June 13th, 2010, 09:06 PM   #2838
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoosier View Post
"Under pressure" is quite an understatement. It is a proven FACT that the Earth does not have the resources to provide everyone with a western standard of living.
Not to hijack a thread, but would you be willing to be the first to give your's up?

Mike
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Old June 13th, 2010, 09:11 PM   #2839
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
Oh boy.
Not even able to understand simple high school physics.
Yeah ok, whatever you say.
You realize that you, not I, are the one making claims, do you? I simply find no reason to take your claims seriously. You need not throw a tantrum, because that won't make you right.

And again you failed to read and understand a simple post: the point is that your calculation of 3.5 times of energy is simply irrelevant, because no one is advocating running a train at 600km/h under the same conditions under which trains currently run at 300km/h.

Last edited by Ariel74; June 13th, 2010 at 09:17 PM.
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Old June 13th, 2010, 11:04 PM   #2840
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Does anybody know the actual schedule, and what the trip time is with all stops?
see below as an example of the schedule:

image hosted on flickr
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