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Old June 13th, 2010, 11:11 PM   #2841
chornedsnorkack
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Thanks!

Found another article on it. The 50 minute, 6 stop trains are the slowest. 6 more stations are yet to open, the trains will presumable get even slower then:
http://www.gochengdoo.com/en/blog/it...r_with_15_yuan
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Old June 14th, 2010, 01:48 AM   #2842
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
Well, fist of all, I don't know where you get "nationalism" from. The contrast is between a random internet forum member (namely YOU), and a member of the Chinese Academy of Sciences. I don't know and don't care what nationality you are. But you are a random internet forum member, so I don't take you seriously. It's that simple. So take a deep breath, and don't cry "nationalism" at the first opportunity.

Secondly, you haven't said anything in your long-winded post beyond rough conjectures based on high-school physics. Your post simply confirms that you don't have any cutting edge research experience in vacuum-maintenance. So I don't see why I should take you seriously, as opposed to a member of the Chinese Academy of Sciences. ..............

the first vactrains would have been up and running a long time ago.
I think it is going to be quite difficult to run trains on wheels at a commercial speed of 600 km/h, even on a vacu system.

This is because: a) the catenary will cause problems at around 620 km/h, and b) becuse it is believed that at around 630 ~770 km/h the wheels lose contact with the rails. During the last TGV world record they run to the limit of the TGV wheels adherence........

For a vacu-maglev is a totally different story

Last edited by joseph1951; June 14th, 2010 at 10:49 PM.
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Old June 14th, 2010, 10:33 AM   #2843
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Nanchang-Jiujiang HSL

It is supposed to open sometime in this June.

Which day? It is the middle of the month already.
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Old June 14th, 2010, 10:54 AM   #2844
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
I think it is going to be quite difficult to run trains on wheels at a commercial speed of 600 km/h, even on a vacu system.

This is because: a) the catenary will cause problems at around 620 km/h, and b) becuse it is believed that at around 630 ~770 km/h the wheels lose contact with the rails. Durign the alast TGV world record they run to the limit of the TGV wheels adherence........

For a vacu-maglev is a totally different story
Sure, things will have to change for their project to work, even for the first stage. And I have no idea if they are going to succeed. As for the specific problems for traditional wheel technology in low vacuum condition, it sounds - from the interview - like it's just a testing stage for gathering experience with vacuum environment. Whether they can achieve 600km/h or merely 550km/h in that first stage is probably not important.
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Old June 14th, 2010, 07:25 PM   #2845
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things that are for sure.



1. a vac tunnel is and will be financially feasiable as it really isn't extravagantly expansive to build a tunnel and pump the air out. We build tons sealed tunnels and most of them are underwater. This will be easier.

2. a conventional wheel based vactrain will never be commercially operational as it is simply stupid. Even without the wear and tear factor, the quality of the railbeds required and the amount of money that's needed to maintain will easily bankrupt even the likes of China. The only purpose that a wheel based vactrain should exist should be to test the tunnel.

3. A vactrain maglev will work wonders.
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Old June 14th, 2010, 09:52 PM   #2846
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
There was an interview with a member of the Chinese Academy of Sciences - a certain Mr. 沈志云 (Shen Zhiyun) - on the research currently being done in China on next generation railway systems. It was posted on ourrail.com at

http://bbs.ourail.com/thread-71560-1-1.html

Unfortunately it is in Chinese and I don't have time to translate the whole thing in full. Some interesting points mentioned there are:

1) The chinese are currently doing research on trains capable of running at 500km/h or more, and in experiments, they have achieved 600km/h;

2) Mr. Shen admits readily that currently no trains can achieve 400km/h in commercial operations, mostly due to energy inefficiency and damaging effects on the environment;

3) He nonetheless says that such high-speed experiments are useful, for two reasons: (a) it provides valuable data for trains running at speeds below 400km/h, and (b) it will help to achieve the first stage development of the vactrain concept currently being experimented with in China.

4) The vactrain concept is being taken seriously in China, and they want to approach it in three stages: (a) first convert the current conventional high-speed passenger-dedicated lines, by constructing a tube around them, in which a low-level vacuum (10% of the atmospheric pressure at sea level) will be maintained. At this stage, trains will be able to achieve (commercially viable speed of) 600km/h; (b) in a second stage, they plan to experiment with maglev trains with low-level vacuum environment. The achievable speed at this stage is 1000km/h; (c) in a final stage, high-level vacuum will be combined with maglev technology to achieve the speed of 4000km/h.

5) By the end of this year, the National Laboratory for Rail-Transport Technology will finish construction at the South-West Transport University. They plan to test in this laboratory small-scale models for (presumably the first stage) vactrains in the next 2-3 years.

It is all in all fascinating that the Chinese are taking concrete steps to realize the vactrain concept.
Not going to happend for a number of reasons:

costs

Unless someone invent free energy the vactrain will never be commersially viable.

maintenance

Just to maintain the vacum tunnel safe you will need to x-ray the entire tube every few weeks to ensure no accidents with catastrophic pressure failure will occur. Imagine a train with 500 passengers suddenly being exposed to earth pressure, I for sure would not want to be in that train.

resource scarcity

Very few materials are adequate to use when you want to seal the tunnel, and simply will not be available in abundance as required.
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Old June 14th, 2010, 10:56 PM   #2847
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
Sure, things will have to change for their project to work, even for the first stage. And I have no idea if they are going to succeed. As for the specific problems for traditional wheel technology in low vacuum condition, it sounds - from the interview - like it's just a testing stage for gathering experience with vacuum environment. Whether they can achieve 600km/h or merely 550km/h in that first stage is probably not important.
Oh.. I think it is an intersting idea, and I believe it is worth exploring the feasibility. A train can run at 500-550 km/h, for short dashes, right now, buth this is achieved at an extremely high energetic cost, due to air drag. Also, a train running in a vacu-tube will be protected from bad weather, such as extreme wind, which is dangerous when a train runs at very high speed....

I hope the tests will be successful.....

Last edited by joseph1951; June 15th, 2010 at 04:24 PM.
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Old June 15th, 2010, 10:26 AM   #2848
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I think the vac tube is a good idea if only because if the technology is successful then it is transferable. If a manufacturere on earth mass produces good vac trains for earth, then then with a few modifications the same model will work on the moon, where there is no atmosphere.

It might seem pie in the sky but with such futuristic technological ideas it is worth remembering that we won't be restricted to earth forever and we will need techonology that operates in a vacuum. Perhaps China's authorities are more acutely aware of this than other governments.
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Old June 16th, 2010, 10:48 AM   #2849
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There is one slight problem with the vactrain......

No view

But still, if it is fast and efficient, why not. There are always LCDs and magazines..
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Old June 16th, 2010, 02:36 PM   #2850
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TsLeng View Post
There is one slight problem with the vactrain......

No view

But still, if it is fast and efficient, why not. There are always LCDs and magazines..
There's barely any view on a plane either other than takeoff and landing. For the most part, its just flat blue skies and puffs of clouds
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Old June 16th, 2010, 09:32 PM   #2851
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XJ Group to Fast Track Rail Project in China

The Chinese Ministry of Railways and XJ Group Corporation have decided to accelerate railway construction in Urumqi, the country's westernmost province.

The project involves spending CNY310bn ($45bn) to increase XJ's railway mileage to 12,000km before 2020.

The contract will also see further upgrades to XJ's railway mileage and transport capacity, according to aboutxinjiang.com.

XJ undertakes 95% of the region's passenger and cargo transport task.

Source: www.railway-technology.com
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Old June 17th, 2010, 12:15 AM   #2852
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Transparent tube?
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Old June 17th, 2010, 05:03 AM   #2853
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Is this $45bn budget of the high speed railway to Urumqi?
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Old June 17th, 2010, 05:59 AM   #2854
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Is this $45bn budget of the high speed railway to Urumqi?
No. This is the "four longitudinal four latitudinal" in Xinjiang.

The four longitudinal railway corridors are:
* Altay-Karamay-Yining-Aksu railway corridor
* Fuyun-Zhundong-Urumqi-Baluntai-Korla railway corridor
* Turpan-Korla-Aksu-Kashgar railway corridor (existing southern branch Lanxin railway)
* Hami-Lop Nur-Ruoqiang-Hotan railway corridor

The four latitudinal railway corridors are:
* Zhundong-Jiangjunmiao-Hami-Ejin railway corridor
* Alataw-Urumqi-Hami-Lanzhou railway corridor (existing northern branch and main line Lanxin railway)
* Korla-Ruoqiang-Golmud railway corridor
* Kashgar-Hotan-Shigatse railway corridor (planning Xinjiang-Tibet railway)
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Old June 17th, 2010, 11:27 AM   #2855
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No. This is the "four longitudinal four latitudinal" in Xinjiang.

The four longitudinal railway corridors are:
* Altay-Karamay-Yining-Aksu railway corridor
* Fuyun-Zhundong-Urumqi-Baluntai-Korla railway corridor
* Turpan-Korla-Aksu-Kashgar railway corridor (existing southern branch Lanxin railway)
* Hami-Lop Nur-Ruoqiang-Hotan railway corridor

The four latitudinal railway corridors are:
* Zhundong-Jiangjunmiao-Hami-Ejin railway corridor
* Alataw-Urumqi-Hami-Lanzhou railway corridor (existing northern branch and main line Lanxin railway)
* Korla-Ruoqiang-Golmud railway corridor
* Kashgar-Hotan-Shigatse railway corridor (planning Xinjiang-Tibet railway)
Are there any plans before 2020 to extend the Yining railway to Kazakhstan?
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Old June 17th, 2010, 11:40 AM   #2856
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Are there any plans before 2020 to extend the Yining railway to Kazakhstan?
No need to wait for 2020. Construction work of the second railway connection between China and Kazakhstan, the Korgas-Zhetigen Railway, was started on August 3, 2009, it is expected to be completed by the end of next year. The railway will be 293 km long. The railway between Yining and Korgas has already been opened for service. Passenger train service between Urumqi and Yining will begin on July 1, 2010.
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Old June 17th, 2010, 11:46 AM   #2857
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No need to wait for 2020. Construction work of the second railway connection between China and Kazakhstan, the Korgas-Zhetigen Railway, was started on August 3, 2009, it is expected to be completed by the end of next year. The railway will be 293 km long. The railway between Yining and Korgas has already been opened for service. Passenger train service between Urumqi and Yining will begin on July 1, 2010.
Which shall be the shorter and faster route between Urumqi and Almaty - through Alashankow and Dostyk, or through Yining, Korgas and Zhetigen?
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Old June 21st, 2010, 04:09 PM   #2858
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http://bjreview.com.cn/business/txt/...ent_280241.htm

The Maglev Dispute

The proposed high-speed maglev train project in Beijing is suspended by residents' questions and concerns

By LAN XINZHEN


Plans for Beijing's first maglev line, despite providing efficient and record-speed transportation across the Chinese capital, is meeting fierce resistance from residents along the proposed route. Concerns stem from possible exposure to radiation produced by the maglev train.

The project, called the S1 Line, aims to include Beijing's western suburbs into the city's urban rail transport network. China's independently developed technologies will highlight the construction of the low-to-medium-speed magnetic levitation (maglev) train. Expected to run at 150 km per hour, S1 Line trains will have two operating systems— manual and automatic.

The maglev train has several advantages over conventional trains. The cost for the maglev line is around 400 million yuan ($58.6 million) per km, far less than the 600-800 million yuan ($87.8-117 million) price tag that comes with subway rail. The maglev train can easily run through dense residential areas with a minimum turning radius of 75 meters, while subways and urban trains require 300 meters. Additionally, the maglev train suits areas with complex geological surroundings where tunneling can be somewhat challenging.

But residents aren't buying it, even though these merits make the maglev line Beijing's top choice in terms of high-speed city transportation.

Objection

Construction of the S1 Line has been assigned to Beijing Infrastructure Investment Co. Ltd., while the Environmental Assessment and Engineering Center (EAEC) of the China Academy of Railway Sciences (CARS) has been entrusted with assessing the project's impact on the environment.

The academy released an assessment report on its website on May 6, inviting the citizens to provide their opinion and ask questions about the S1 Line's environmental impact.

Anxieties were high among residents pertaining to the maglev line's influence on their health, said Zhao Lei, who lives in an apartment in the China House residential compound. The S1 Line will run through his compound and nearby Bisenli residential compound, with only 30 meters separating the residents from the maglev line.

Residents in the two residential compounds and some other housing projects along the line signed a letter of protest and sent it to the academy, the Beijing Infrastructure Investment Co. Ltd. and relevant departments of the Beijing Municipal Government. They have also taken their opposition online.

From the letter's first sentence, the residents' stance is clear: "We the residents along the maglev line—a severe environmental and health menace to us—firmly oppose the decision."

They outlined four primary reasons for their opposition.

First and foremost was the fear of exposure to unknown amounts of radiation. The safety of maglev technologies has yet to be proved for wide application because of a lack of statistical data to define radiation pollution and associated harm, said the letter.

The letter also raised questions concerning the government's ability to assess harm to regular passengers from potential radiation exposure and also provide medical support should the project have a detrimental side-effect on passengers and residents.

The second point addressed the distance of the S1 Line from residential areas. Houses need to be 300 meters away from the maglev line for safety purposes, according to German rail standards. Research from the Chinese Academy of Sciences (CAS) already prohibits construction of any building within 100 meters of maglev rails.

Noise from passing maglev trains was also addressed in the letter. Many claim the noise from a passing maglev train is more annoying than that of a wheeled train.

Residents also said they are hesitant to believe that maglev trains will not bother those along train routes with jarring or jolting. The absence of jarring is only theoretical, based on statistics from experiments conducted in an environment without vehicles, residents or factories, they said in the letter.

Instead, the residents proposed paving rails underground for wheeled trains as an alternative to the S1 Line.

Safe design

Beijing Enterprises Holdings Maglev Technology Development Co. Ltd. will provide the technology for the Chinese capital's fist maglev line. The company completed research and development work with nearly 40 million yuan ($5.86 million) in funds from the Beijing Municipal Science and Technology Commission.

In 2008, the company built a 1.547-km low-speed maglev test line in Tangshan, Hebei Province, and tested it with an economical maglev train.

The train was approved by a team of experts and passed four tests from the CAS Institute of Electrical Engineering (IEE) and Beijing Municipal Environmental Monitoring Center on March 5, 2010.

Magnetic radiation intensity from a low-to-medium-speed maglev train is lower than the safety standard set by the International Commission on Non-Lonizing Radiation Protection and is about the same as that from wheeled trains running on rails, a report issued by the team of experts said.

"The radiation from a low-to-medium-speed maglev train is safe enough for people to use, because, broadly speaking, we are already living in an electromagnetic environment," said Sun Guangsheng, a researcher with the Bioelectromagnetics Lab under the IEE of the CAS and one of the experts involved in analyzing the Tangshan test line.

While household lights generally operate on at least 50 hz, the maglev train has a frequency high of 90 hz. The electromagnetic radiation is also "sealed," Sun said.

Passengers don't have to worry about the radiation because the radiation within the maglev train is about the same as that from a hair dryer or an electric razor, said Cong Chunshui, a senior engineer with Beijing Enterprises Holdings, to Beijing Review.

In terms of the noise, Liu Zhiming, Chairman of Beijing Enterprises Holdings, said it is about 64 db 10 meters from the rail, which is lower than the 92 db from a light rail train.

The test states that the S1 Line maglev train meets national standards for magnetic radiation and noise, according to the Beijing Infrastructure Investment Co. Ltd.

Concessions

The wide dispute over the maglev's safety has postponed the public hearing slated to conclude later this month.

A CARS researcher said the expert team is investigating the issues brought up by residents and will publish their findings in a second report. No timetable has been set for the follow-up report.

But residents have won a small victory in their fight against the fast train: on May 12, the EAEC of the CARS issued a notice on its website, saying the length of the project's underground section would be extended from 455 meters to 2,969 meters.

The underground extension will cause a smaller population to be affected, but will still leave the two compounds of Bisenli and China House on the maglev's proposed path.

Zhao and his neighbors are decided in their resistance and will continue to send letters to relevant administrations.

"Maglev trains haven't been put into wide application overseas despite numerous demonstrations. So why should China promote it so hastily?" Zhao said.



The Maglev Line to Be Constructed in Beijing

With a total length of 19.869 km and 12 stations, the project runs eastward to Cishousi Station in Haidian District from Shimenying Station in Mentougou District in southwest Beijing.

Divided into two sections for easier construction, the project will begin land acquisition and resettlement work from the west section, starting September 1, 2010. The west section, from Shimenying Station to Pingguoyuan Station, is slated to be ready for trial operation by December 2013. The east section, from Pingguoyuan Station to Cishousi Station, will begin construction in November 2013, with a trial operation in February 2017.

(Source: The Chinese Academy of Railway Sciences)

The Maglev Line Now Operates in Shanghai

Shanghai boasts China's only current maglev line, with a total investment of 10.03 billion yuan ($1.47 billion). The 30 km-long maglev line was built using German technologies and has a high speed of 431 km per hour.

Approved for construction in June 2000, the Shanghai Maglev Line was completed on December 31, 2002, launched on October 11, 2003, and examined and accepted by the government on April 26, 2007.

Designed to have a daily passenger turnover of 23,000, the line now sees less than 5,000 passengers due to high ticket prices. Price cuts in recent years haven't helped boost passenger turnover.

The line cost nearly 1 billion yuan ($146.4 million) for equipment updating by the end of 2009. The line has been operated at an annual loss of 500-700 million yuan ($73.2-102.5 million), with accumulated debts of more than 7 billion yuan ($1 billion).

(Source: edited by Beijing Review)
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Old June 21st, 2010, 06:47 PM   #2859
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Old June 22nd, 2010, 05:10 AM   #2860
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High-speed rail brings Delta closer together

Shanghai Daily
By Zha Minjie
2010-6-21

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THOMAS Lu, a young advertising agency employee who works in Shanghai, has never thought his home in Nanjing would be that close. "It sounds a nice idea to me that I can get off work in the city and have dinner with my parents back home," said Lu who, like many non-locals working here, lives in a small rented apartment on his own. He's talking about the Shanghai-Nanjing high-speed rail line which will start operating on July 1 after two years of construction.

The bullet train, which has a top speed of 350 kilometers per hour, will connect Shanghai to Nanjing, capital of neighboring Jiangsu Province 300 kilometers away, in a little less than an hour. The Shanghai-Nanjing train is just one of five high-speed lines recently opened or set to open in the Yangtze River Delta, one of the country's most developed economic zones. The Shanghai Railway Bureau, which is also responsible for rail services in Zhejiang, Jiangsu and part of Anhui, plans to invest more than 100 billion yuan (US$14.65 billion) this year in rail infrastructure mainly for high-speed trains.

The region's new rail system will have 6,849 kilometers of track by 2020, according to a 2005 plan for the Yangtze River Delta rail network, and allow passengers to travel between key Delta cities such as Shanghai, Nanjing, Hangzhou and Ningbo within three hours. The Shanghai-Nanjing line is expected to cut travel time between the two cities from more than two hours currently to under an hour. And there will be about 200 daily services, double the current capacity, including one train every five minutes during peak hours. The Shanghai-Hangzhou high-speed railway, which will start in October, will cut the journey from more than an hour currently to 38 minutes. Both the new lines will operate from Shanghai's Hongqiao Railway Station.

But railway authorities have still not announced ticket prices for the high-speed journey, raising concerns. Tickets will certainly be more expensive than on the current Shanghai-Nanjing line which cost from 93 to 112 yuan. "Hopefully it won't cost me too much," Lu said. However, some passengers, especially migrant workers who make a hard living in the city, are worried that regular trains will be canceled and they will be compelled to use the more expensive high-speed trains. Rail officials denied this, saying they would increase rail services instead of canceling some as the current services are far from adequate.

Meanwhile, Metro lines and highways are not being left behind. The city's Metro Line 11 is expected to be extended to Jiangsu Province's Kunshan City by 2012. Other neighboring provinces such as Zhejiang are also considering linking their subways with the Shanghai network.

The wider use of electronic toll collection on highways to nearby cities is also a reflection of the blurring of regional borders. The e-toll network has extended to neighboring provinces: Jiangsu Province in 2008 and on to Anhui Province last year. Shanghai vehicles will be able to use e-toll lanes in Zhejiang and Jiangxi provinces by the end of this year.

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Passengers take a preview ride on the high-speed train that runs along the Shanghai-Nanjing Intercity Railway yesterday in Nanjing, capital of eastern China's Jiangsu Province. The rail line will start operation on July 1 after two years of construction. The bullet train, with a top speed of 350 kilometers per hour, will cut the trip between the two cities to about an hour from more than two hours. The line's terminal in Shanghai is the Hongqiao Railway Station, part of the Hongqiao transport hub.
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