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Old July 9th, 2010, 11:31 AM   #2941
G5man
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The media is so against high-speed rail, it is not even funny. I am completely sick of it and I want to see what happens when those people go to another country and ride their high-speed trains.
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Old July 10th, 2010, 12:17 AM   #2942
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The Shanghai - Nanjing line was never supposed to run 350km/h services anyway. True HSR will come when the Shanghai - Beijing line is opened.
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Old July 10th, 2010, 03:08 AM   #2943
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well, at least now I know. SCMP is added to my list of media outlets not to be trusted on Mainland China news.
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Old July 10th, 2010, 12:43 PM   #2944
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbaricManchurian View Post
well, at least now I know. SCMP is added to my list of media outlets not to be trusted on Mainland China news.
Probably a little harsh for a single article that exaggerated some facts.
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Old July 10th, 2010, 05:31 PM   #2945
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I'm going to China next month for vacation and I will be staying in a few cities,the most prominent ones being Guangzhou and Shanghai for the expo. I plan on taking the CRH from Guangzhou to Wuhan, but I'm wondering if there is high speed trains right now from Wuhan to Shanghai (or Nanjing and transfer to CRH from there)? Thanks in advance.
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Old July 10th, 2010, 05:36 PM   #2946
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Originally Posted by Nozumi 300 View Post
I'm going to China next month for vacation and I will be staying in a few cities,the most prominent ones being Guangzhou and Shanghai for the expo. I plan on taking the CRH from Guangzhou to Wuhan, but I'm wondering if there is high speed trains right now from Wuhan to Shanghai (or Nanjing and transfer to CRH from there)? Thanks in advance.
G1030 (Guangzhou South – Wuhan), depart @ 08:09, arrive @ 11:48
D3024/D3021 (Wuhan – Shanghai Hongqiao), depart @ 12:43, arrive @ 18:20

There are also a few other direct CRH trains to Shanghai from Wuchang station and Hankou station, both in Wuhan city.

Last edited by yaohua2000; July 10th, 2010 at 05:43 PM.
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Old July 10th, 2010, 05:44 PM   #2947
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Originally Posted by Huhu View Post
Probably a little harsh for a single article that exaggerated some facts.
They have a history of this, they lied about the "Blacks banned from Beijing nightclubs," Tibet and Xinjiang "human rights violations," and so forth. Its not exaggerations, its just pure lies with no basis in fact

Everything highlighted here is complete bullshit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Didn't expect this to happen so soon ...

High-speed link on a fast track to nowhere
6 July 2010
South China Morning Post

Sales of high-speed rail tickets between Shanghai and Nanjing will be suspended indefinitely from Saturday - just days after the multibillion-yuan link was launched amid a blaze of propaganda.

Rail authorities say the indefinite suspension will allow them to "optimise" the service. But the move appears to have been prompted by poor demand amid complaints about high ticket prices for a negligible saving in trip time.

The less-than-enthusiastic welcome to high-speed rail travel in the affluent Yangtze River Delta bodes ominously for the service's future nationwide, with links being constructed between major cities throughout the country.

It also calls into question feasibility studies carried out before the high-profile project was given the green light.

In an embarrassing climbdown for the Shanghai Railways Bureau, train ticket offices in the city yesterday displayed printed notices reading: "Following notification from above, the sale of high-speed rail tickets will be suspended from July 11, 2010, until further notice." Staff on duty said they had not been given any further explanation for the suspension.

The Shanghai-Nanjing link - part of a massive transport infrastructure upgrade spanning the Yangtze River Delta - was fast-tracked as part of the government's financial stimulus package and to help ferry tourists visiting the World Expo in Shanghai. It was launched on Thursday - exactly two years after work began - with headlines in local newspapers boasting it would cut journey times to as little as 73 minutes.

In reality, there is only one direct service per day in each direction scheduled to make the trip in that time, with a second completing the journey in 75 minutes.

Most trips stop at intervening cities and can take as long as two hours and seven minutes - just one minute quicker than the existing D-class express trains, which are much cheaper.

Standard-class, high-speed rail tickets from Shanghai to Nanjing cost 146 yuan, 57 per cent more than the 93 yuan it costs to buy a D-class ticket. Trains on the new route have a maximum speed of 350km/h, but do not actually reach that during commercial operations. Non-direct trains travel at around 200km/h for most of the route, only exceeding 300km/h for a few brief periods.

Shanghai rail officials have blamed the slower-than-anticipated speeds on the complicated route taken by the specially constructed line, which passes through the heart of a number of cities.

High-speed rail services ridden by South China Morning Post journalists on Thursday and during the weekend were reasonably busy but well below maximum capacity, with empty seats in most carriages. Shanghai media reported yesterday that 94,000 passengers travelled on the high-speed line on Thursday, followed by 138,000 on Friday and around 130,000 on Saturday. The city's official media portal, Eastday.com, reported that "close to half the seats were empty" on a Sunday service while "several hundred tickets remained unsold" for other trips that day. By contrast, D-class trains - which were cut back when the high-speed line went into service - were almost all fully booked.

No one at the Shanghai Railways Bureau could be reached for comment yesterday.

A Shanghai government spokesman said he was told that the bureau issued a press release on the ticket suspension yesterday afternoon. But, no notices relating to the decision were on the bureau's website by last night. Eastday quoted a Shanghai Railways Bureau spokesman as saying that the bureau was "taking stock of the situation during operations over in the past few days" in order to "optimise" the scheduling of the high-speed rail service.

Official plans for the Yangtze River Delta network - scheduled to be completed next year - had originally stated it would cut journey times to less than an hour between any of the region's three main cities - Shanghai, Nanjing and Hangzhou .

Officials also predicted that when the network eventually reached Beijing, the trip between Shanghai and the capital would take just five hours.

The experience of the Shanghai-Nanjing link casts doubt on just how realistic those times are.
Of course they have to give the impression that this is something that evil Communists will do, saying "amid a blast of propaganda," even when it truly is a huge transportation upgrade for the area. Then, they completely speculate with no basis in fact about why the line was shut down (low demand, which isn't even true. Their "evidence" is that there's empty seats in a carriage. well guess what, trains are usually not completely full anywhere, so again, bullshit), while what the officials said were true (to "optimize" the scheduling). Then they say "these times aren't realistic, blah blah blah". Yeah, when they say the train will take 73 minutes, and it takes 73 minutes, an average speed of over 225 km/h, it's called FACT, not something you can ignore because it doesn't fit your agenda. All the promised times for CRH have been delivered, so that's another speculation with no basis whatsoever in fact. This actually worried me for a few hours because I am going to take the train next week. I want accurate information so I can make the right choice on what trains are available, not politically motivated bullshit. Everything in bold is either made up or a blatant lie. Seriously, at least CNN and BBC have some semblance of the truth in their reporting .

Last edited by BarbaricManchurian; July 10th, 2010 at 05:51 PM.
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Old July 11th, 2010, 06:22 AM   #2948
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't understand the argument against the article. I think the point they are trying to make is that only 2 trains daily make the express Nanjing-Shanghai ~73 minute journey, while the majority of daily trains make frequent stops and are only marginally faster than the older service at a 57% price premium.

Quote:
Most trips stop at intervening cities and can take as long as two hours and seven minutes - just one minute quicker than the existing D-class express trains, which are much cheaper.
Unless you're on 1 of the 2 express trains, being asked to pay a 57% premium to save in some cases, 1 minute, is unfair.

Now if the information in this article is wrong, for instance, all trains take 73 minutes or the ticket prices are much lower, I can understand your anger, but given the facts stated in the article it does seem like the planners of this service got it a bit wrong. Perhaps things will sort out when this line becomes part of the Beijing-Shanghai line.
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Old July 11th, 2010, 08:44 AM   #2949
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the disagreement with the article is not over the price issue. well, the pricing policy of the intercity rail has been criticized all over the Chinese media. in fact, this is one of the few valid statements from the SCMP report: many people are not happy to pay 57% more to save a few minutes to about half an hour in most cases. The response from the railway bureau is to add 26 more non-stop express trains to the service, which is also the reason for the sale suspension. i think this can solve the problem: passengers traveling between Nanjing and shanghai can take the express trains to save more time, while others taking non-direct trains can stop at cities like Wuxi and Suzhou. after all this is an intercity rail (the fact they name it a high-speed rail does not change its nature), and it should serve all 'big' cities along the line. about the unfair fare for the non-direct trains, keep in mind the ticket price is solely determined by the distance you travel and the train type/seat class you choose, not the travel time.

as for me, many statements from the article are just baseless speculations and lack basic logic. for instance, you don't say the sale of tickets will be suspended indefinitely just because you saw a notice of the sale will be suspended--moreover, the notice actually stated that the pre-sale of tickets for trains after July 11th were suspended, thus it is false to say that the sale will be suspended from July 11th till infinity. and all comments like 'poor demand' and 'embarrassing climbdown' are not supported by any evidence. the most ridiculous part is that the author concluded that 'traveling from shanghai to nanjing in an hour' and 'traveling from shanghai to beijing in five hours' are unrealistic based on the experience of the intercity rail--has it ever occurred to the author that these are different high speed rails from the intercity line? trains are running at the designed speed on the intercity rail, what do you expect, faster? jeez, i bet the author must have said this before he/she wrote the article: "ha, i know this will fail!"

anyway, after the schedule was changed officially and the ticket sale resumed almost a week ago, it is quite a waste of time to focus on this article anymore. my concern is still about the options available to the general population. i can imagine how convenient it will be once the high-speed rail network is completed. just hope the railway bureau could keep the economic low-speed trains for immigrant workers and students on the conventional lines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nouveau.ukiyo View Post

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't understand the argument against the article. I think the point they are trying to make is that only 2 trains daily make the express Nanjing-Shanghai ~73 minute journey, while the majority of daily trains make frequent stops and are only marginally faster than the older service at a 57% price premium.



Unless you're on 1 of the 2 express trains, being asked to pay a 57% premium to save in some cases, 1 minute, is unfair.

Now if the information in this article is wrong, for instance, all trains take 73 minutes or the ticket prices are much lower, I can understand your anger, but given the facts stated in the article it does seem like the planners of this service got it a bit wrong. Perhaps things will sort out when this line becomes part of the Beijing-Shanghai line.
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Old July 11th, 2010, 10:18 AM   #2950
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nouveau.ukiyo View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't understand the argument against the article. I think the point they are trying to make is that only 2 trains daily make the express Nanjing-Shanghai ~73 minute journey, while the majority of daily trains make frequent stops and are only marginally faster than the older service at a 57% price premium.
The new G-trains are actually significantly faster than old D-trains. They are comparing the fastest D-trains with average G-trains.

Before July 1, D-trains between Nanjing and Shanghai (50 daily, from both directions, exclude long-distance trains that also cover the section, such as Beijing-Shanghai, Wuhan-Shanghai, and etc):
* Fastest: 2 hours, 5 minutes
* Slowest: 2 hours, 43 minutes
* Average: 2 hours, 25 minutes

July 2–July 10, G-trains between Nanjing and Shanghai & Shanghai Hongqiao (120 trains daily from both directions):
* Fastest: 1 hours, 13 minutes
* Slowest: 2 hours, 10 minutes
* Average: 1 hours, 52 minutes

July 11—:
* Fastest: 1 hours, 13 minutes
* Slowest: 1 hours, 59 minutes
* Average: 1 hours, 44 minutes


Quote:
Originally Posted by nouveau.ukiyo View Post
Perhaps things will sort out when this line becomes part of the Beijing-Shanghai line.
I think when Beijing-Shanghai open next year, more slow trains, but stop in many stations along the way, will run on the intercity line. And Beijing-Shanghai will serve the direct trains. Here's a map of Beijing-Shanghai and Shanghai-Nanjing line:


Last edited by yaohua2000; July 11th, 2010 at 10:24 AM.
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Old July 11th, 2010, 08:56 PM   #2951
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nouveau.ukiyo View Post

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't understand the argument against the article. I think the point they are trying to make is that only 2 trains daily make the express Nanjing-Shanghai ~73 minute journey, while the majority of daily trains make frequent stops and are only marginally faster than the older service at a 57% price premium.



Unless you're on 1 of the 2 express trains, being asked to pay a 57% premium to save in some cases, 1 minute, is unfair.

Now if the information in this article is wrong, for instance, all trains take 73 minutes or the ticket prices are much lower, I can understand your anger, but given the facts stated in the article it does seem like the planners of this service got it a bit wrong. Perhaps things will sort out when this line becomes part of the Beijing-Shanghai line.
The main complaints are first, they lied about ticket sales being suspended indefinitely, and second, the reason for the (temporary, not indefinite) suspension was to add more nonstop trains, not because of low demand. The article gives the impression that the HSR will be shut for months because no one wants to ride it anyway, which is blatantly false.
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Old July 12th, 2010, 11:07 AM   #2952
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But then, the reason why they wanted to boost nonstop trains is because people don't like the existing service which offers little time savings but at a much higher price. Hence, they would not take it, and the empty seats.

Having been on the Shenzhen - Guangzhou services a few times already, I must say empty seats in second class are not common, even when trains run every 15 minutes.

However, I tend to agree the media likes to overplay certain facts with a mix of speculation and reality.
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Old July 12th, 2010, 12:25 PM   #2953
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nouveau.ukiyo View Post

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't understand the argument against the article. I think the point they are trying to make is that only 2 trains daily make the express Nanjing-Shanghai ~73 minute journey, while the majority of daily trains make frequent stops and are only marginally faster than the older service at a 57% price premium.



Unless you're on 1 of the 2 express trains, being asked to pay a 57% premium to save in some cases, 1 minute, is unfair.

Now if the information in this article is wrong, for instance, all trains take 73 minutes or the ticket prices are much lower, I can understand your anger, but given the facts stated in the article it does seem like the planners of this service got it a bit wrong. Perhaps things will sort out when this line becomes part of the Beijing-Shanghai line.
Just a few express trains that skip all the stations along the way each day and therefore can travel at the highest speed. Isn't that the same with most other high speed railway in other countries? The article has an intent to bash.
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Old July 12th, 2010, 05:07 PM   #2954
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South China Morning Post is a triditional China bashing outlet that most likely have ties to FaLunGong, Xingjiang Independence movement and the Dalai Lama.

Their reporting ethics are simply an embrassement to society.
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Old July 12th, 2010, 05:18 PM   #2955
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Originally Posted by maldini View Post
Just a few express trains that skip all the stations along the way each day and therefore can travel at the highest speed. Isn't that the same with most other high speed railway in other countries? The article has an intent to bash.
Actually no, most high speed railways do not try to operate local stopping trains (albeit high speed ones), apart from Japan and Taiwan - yet even they manage a high proportion of the trains to be fast ones not stopping everywhere. The predominant model in europe is almost no stops at all whilst on the high speed lines - the reverse of this situation.

But, its not like the Chinese are mad for doing it this way - they intend to have 2 HSRs, one for slower trains and another non-stop one. Just they haven't built the non-stop one yet, but obviously they brought in the tickets and timetable as if the fast one had been built. Thats why I love managers - no one spotted the elementary error.
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Old July 12th, 2010, 07:54 PM   #2956
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National infrastructure need to service everybody. Not just the people at the end of the lines.

Trains that stop at stations inbetween terminals make only logical sense.

The problem is solved by adding more direct trains, however, local stopping trains is crutial for the line's success.


Europe have a low population density, whilst China's mega cities are built to a point where urbanized areas can stretch across 300kms. China doesn't have the luxury of running predominately non-stopping trains.
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Old July 12th, 2010, 08:40 PM   #2957
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National infrastructure need to service everybody. Not just the people at the end of the lines.

Trains that stop at stations inbetween terminals make only logical sense.

The problem is solved by adding more direct trains, however, local stopping trains is crutial for the line's success.


Europe have a low population density, whilst China's mega cities are built to a point where urbanized areas can stretch across 300kms. China doesn't have the luxury of running predominately non-stopping trains.
I don't disagree with that. And actually a lot of intermediate stations see hardly any trains at all. They are trying to run direct and stopping trains (serving major and minor stations) all on the same line and it's not surprising the service pattern turned out an absolute mess.

There's also the major point that for most journeys between Shanghai and Nanjing (and intermediate points), time saving is absolutely minimal which does not justify the hike in ticket prices at all.

They should have just kept to the same service pattern and ticket prices and waited for the completion of the new line before running more expensive and faster trains.
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Old July 13th, 2010, 01:20 AM   #2958
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
I don't disagree with that. And actually a lot of intermediate stations see hardly any trains at all. They are trying to run direct and stopping trains (serving major and minor stations) all on the same line and it's not surprising the service pattern turned out an absolute mess.

There's also the major point that for most journeys between Shanghai and Nanjing (and intermediate points), time saving is absolutely minimal which does not justify the hike in ticket prices at all.

They should have just kept to the same service pattern and ticket prices and waited for the completion of the new line before running more expensive and faster trains.
The new higher prices are more reasonable from the cost point of view. You know, the railway is financed by the government, and was way cheap to begin with.
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Old July 13th, 2010, 05:07 AM   #2959
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Originally Posted by NCT View Post
I don't disagree with that. And actually a lot of intermediate stations see hardly any trains at all. They are trying to run direct and stopping trains (serving major and minor stations) all on the same line and it's not surprising the service pattern turned out an absolute mess.

There's also the major point that for most journeys between Shanghai and Nanjing (and intermediate points), time saving is absolutely minimal which does not justify the hike in ticket prices at all.

They should have just kept to the same service pattern and ticket prices and waited for the completion of the new line before running more expensive and faster trains.
Well, what about the comfort? In case one has an A/C and more leg room than the other, this can justify the higher price even if the travel time is rather similar. Does anyone have knowledge about this?


Also, IMHO, high speed trains should skip local small stations, otherwise what is the point..?
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Old July 13th, 2010, 09:01 AM   #2960
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Also, IMHO, high speed trains should skip local small stations, otherwise what is the point..?
1) Ability to accelerate and decelerate faster between stations.

2) Mixing stopping and express trains. Look at Shinkansen.
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