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Old July 13th, 2010, 12:56 PM   #2961
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Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
Well, what about the comfort? In case one has an A/C and more leg room than the other, this can justify the higher price even if the travel time is rather similar. Does anyone have knowledge about this?
Apart from the train code and (sometimes) the inconvenience of having to use Shanghai Hongqiao virtually everything is the same between a D-train and a G-train, oh and of course the price.

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Also, IMHO, high speed trains should skip local small stations, otherwise what is the point..?
The thing is stations such as Suzhou Industrial Park and New Wuxi generate quite a lot of cross-city commuter journeys so HSR provision is not unreasonable. I don't know if this intercity line has 4 tracks, but if is has it'd be much easier to run a simple 2-tier service on the slow and fast lines. The fast line could run a standardised service serving the big cities, while the slow line could run short city-to-city routes stopping at all the intermediate stations, with through tickets available to aide interchange.
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Old July 13th, 2010, 05:29 PM   #2962
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China has been running mixed speed traffic on fully packed lines for the past decade. Scheduling trains on the same track shouldn't be a problem.

Also, the Shanghai to Nanjing line is supposed to act as a commuter type railway that'll allow people to live further away from Shanghai's city proper. A commuter train need to have commuter stops.
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Old July 13th, 2010, 06:12 PM   #2963
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The fare cost is quite prohibitive to entice people to commute like this, given the fare to wage ratio is way too big.
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Old July 13th, 2010, 06:20 PM   #2964
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Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
The fare cost is quite prohibitive to entice people to commute like this, given the fare to wage ratio is way too big.
Shorter distance stops cost less, i don't believe it's meant for people to commute 300KM from Nanjing to Shanghai. And for professionals who earn more than 15K RMB per month, the pricing is not unacceptable.
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Old July 13th, 2010, 06:27 PM   #2965
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Shorter distance stops cost less, i don't believe it's meant for people to commute 300KM from Nanjing to Shanghai. And for professionals who earn more than 15K RMB per month, the pricing is not unacceptable.
Sorry, but 15k a month is a bit absurd even for professionals.

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90...9/6386432.html

The Shanghai Municipal Labor & Social Security Bureau recently released a guide on the prospective wages of Shanghai graduates in 2008.

According to the data, the monthly wage for graduates is on average 2,492 yuan. More specifically, the wage for those with a doctorate is 6,000 yuan; with a master's receive 4,650 yuan


http://www.shanghaidaily.com/sp/arti...cle_395539.htm

THE Shanghai Statistics Bureau said the average salary of employees in Shanghai was 3,292 yuan (US$481) a month in 2008, a 13.8 percent year-on-year rise, Oriental Morning Post reported today.
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Old July 13th, 2010, 06:34 PM   #2966
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Originally Posted by UD2 View Post


China has been running mixed speed traffic on fully packed lines for the past decade. Scheduling trains on the same track shouldn't be a problem.
It was such a problem they started building new lines hoping they could operate simpler diagrams. How ironic.

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Also, the Shanghai to Nanjing line is supposed to act as a commuter type railway that'll allow people to live further away from Shanghai's city proper. A commuter train need to have commuter stops.
Yet clearly you can't run intercity and commuter services on the same line otherwise we'd be seeing clockface timetables and well patronised stations by now.

Oh why oh why couldn't they just keep things simple -
  • Classic line - slow stopping services and freight. Each slow service runs between the nearest major cities only.
  • Intercity line - simple Shanghai/Hongqiao - Kunshan - Suzhou - Wuxi - Changzhou - Zhenjiang - Nanjing.
  • Long-distance Shanghai to Beijing - no stops between Shanghai and Nanjing.

But hey I'm sure the people making the decisions had much better ideas than the travelling public.
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Old July 13th, 2010, 07:23 PM   #2967
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its because this opened before the Shanghai-Beijing HSR, as you know the SH-BJ HSR was originally planned to open in 2014, but then was accelerated, and its not like this line is failing its job of providing both nonstop and stopping services on the same line, after the schedule changes. They just didn't know what the demand pattern would be before it opened.
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Old July 13th, 2010, 08:15 PM   #2968
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its because this opened before the Shanghai-Beijing HSR, as you know the SH-BJ HSR was originally planned to open in 2014, but then was accelerated, and its not like this line is failing its job of providing both nonstop and stopping services on the same line, after the schedule changes. They just didn't know what the demand pattern would be before it opened.
Leaving prices aside things are no worse than they were before this new line was constructed and D-trains magically converted to G-trains, but no better either, so the least they could do was to hold the prices constant (or raise them by at most 10% which would have been reasonable). Opening of brand-new infrastructure only brings a service that's 'no worse than before' says something.

The new line IS failing its job of providing fast and slow services. When a brand-new infrastructure opens I expect the same train at the same minutes past each hour. The truth is shiny new stations like Suzhou Industrial Park only see half a dozen trains per day with no trains for hours on end. It was not like they didn't have any past patronage data to work with, forecast demand and work out a sensible diagram for the new line - they had years.

I'm not taking it out on you personally and sorry to sound a bit bitter but the new infrastructure had so much going for it, only to have TDB ruining it all.

Last edited by NCT; July 13th, 2010 at 08:20 PM.
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Old July 13th, 2010, 10:23 PM   #2969
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Those are all reasonable complaints, but to suggest that they shouldn't have opened the line at all until the SH-BJ HSR was complete is a bit ridiculous. Almost all HSRs serve nonstop and stopping services well, simultaneously; very rarely is there a situation like this where there will be parallel tracks for different levels of service.
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Old July 14th, 2010, 12:02 AM   #2970
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbaricManchurian View Post
Those are all reasonable complaints, but to suggest that they shouldn't have opened the line at all until the SH-BJ HSR was complete is a bit ridiculous. Almost all HSRs serve nonstop and stopping services well, simultaneously; very rarely is there a situation like this where there will be parallel tracks for different levels of service.
I never said they shouldn't have opened the line. If they waited a bit longer before hiking the prices and cutting the old services everything would have been fine. It's really less about the new Beijing-Shanghai HSR but more about integrating the classic lines with the new infrastructure to build a comprehensive and simple network.

And IIRC I think it's only in Japan where they run a multitude of services on their HSR network, with most other places running simple diagrams on different tracks. I might be wrong but the Shinkansen lines could well be four-tracked so it would actually make sense running slow and fast trains.

Last edited by NCT; July 14th, 2010 at 12:09 AM.
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Old July 14th, 2010, 12:37 AM   #2971
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Germany runs slow and fast trains on its high speed tracks
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Old July 14th, 2010, 12:24 PM   #2972
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Germany don't have any high-speed tracks per se - all trains run on the same track and there is a lack of 4-tracking. Having ICEs running alongside slower trains means the ICEs can't reach their top speeds and the number of train paths are compromised. Most lines run below 250km/h and there are rarely more than 2 tph on any line. This sort of compromise is OK if you only need about 1 tph for each route, which clearly isn't the case for the Yantze Delta.

All the cities between Shanghai and Nanjing are heavily populated and there already are several trains per hour saturating the lines, then it makes sense to segregate your slow and fast services to maximise the number of train paths. The parallel tracks ARE there and can be used effectively.
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Old July 14th, 2010, 01:25 PM   #2973
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Quote:
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Germany don't have any high-speed tracks per se - all trains run on the same track and there is a lack of 4-tracking. Having ICEs running alongside slower trains means the ICEs can't reach their top speeds and the number of train paths are compromised. Most lines run below 250km/h and there are rarely more than 2 tph on any line. This sort of compromise is OK if you only need about 1 tph for each route, which clearly isn't the case for the Yantze Delta.

All the cities between Shanghai and Nanjing are heavily populated and there already are several trains per hour saturating the lines, then it makes sense to segregate your slow and fast services to maximise the number of train paths. The parallel tracks ARE there and can be used effectively.
You really do not need four entirely separate tracks for low and hi-speed trains.
Mixed traffic can be initiated with right time coordination. The trick is to strategically place overtake lanes at stations and the low speed trains wait while the hi-speed trains passes by. The frequency of trains will be somewhat limited but if there are enough stations the slower trains will not become an obstacle of the hi-speed trains.
That is how Shinkansen and/or any other train corridors are operated here in Japan.
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Old July 14th, 2010, 04:22 PM   #2974
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
Germany don't have any high-speed tracks per se - all trains run on the same track and there is a lack of 4-tracking. Having ICEs running alongside slower trains means the ICEs can't reach their top speeds and the number of train paths are compromised. Most lines run below 250km/h and there are rarely more than 2 tph on any line. This sort of compromise is OK if you only need about 1 tph for each route, which clearly isn't the case for the Yantze Delta.
That is not the way it runs in Germany. You might only find one ICE train per hour leaving Berlin for Frankfurt, but you will find another ICE using the same rails between Berlin and Wolfsburg (near Hannover) heading for Cologne, another conventional train using the same line at 200k heading for Amsterdam, plus 2 so-called RegionalExpresses with top speeds of 160k all using the same line (the RegionalExpresses have additional tracks for short bits of the way). These lines are very busy, often operating with just three minutes headway. As Ice trains also operate on conventional tracks, the number of possible final destinations is very high.
However: on the few dedicated 300k lines in Germany (especially Frankfurt-Cologne), there is to my knowledge no conventional train service. Here, just as you have described for the case you are discussing here, ICE trains will stop occasionally at provincial stations to pick up passengers, with number of stops varying according to demand, but will more often than not head from metropolis to metropolis non-stop.
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Old July 14th, 2010, 04:33 PM   #2975
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
Germany don't have any high-speed tracks per se - all trains run on the same track and there is a lack of 4-tracking. Having ICEs running alongside slower trains means the ICEs can't reach their top speeds and the number of train paths are compromised. Most lines run below 250km/h and there are rarely more than 2 tph on any line. This sort of compromise is OK if you only need about 1 tph for each route, which clearly isn't the case for the Yantze Delta.

All the cities between Shanghai and Nanjing are heavily populated and there already are several trains per hour saturating the lines, then it makes sense to segregate your slow and fast services to maximise the number of train paths. The parallel tracks ARE there and can be used effectively.
Well, actually, China is doing exactly what you are describing, if you think about it. There is 4 (East-West) + 4 (North-South) high speed corridors which will be backbone of nation wide high speed rail. Plus, regional high speed lines in high density places.
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Old July 14th, 2010, 06:13 PM   #2976
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Well, actually, China is doing exactly what you are describing, if you think about it. There is 4 (East-West) + 4 (North-South) high speed corridors which will be backbone of nation wide high speed rail. Plus, regional high speed lines in high density places.
And of coure you are right - national and regional lines are well segregated - it's the regional and local setup which is a bit muddy.
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Old July 14th, 2010, 06:24 PM   #2977
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Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
That is not the way it runs in Germany. You might only find one ICE train per hour leaving Berlin for Frankfurt, but you will find another ICE using the same rails between Berlin and Wolfsburg (near Hannover) heading for Cologne, another conventional train using the same line at 200k heading for Amsterdam, plus 2 so-called RegionalExpresses with top speeds of 160k all using the same line (the RegionalExpresses have additional tracks for short bits of the way). These lines are very busy, often operating with just three minutes headway. As Ice trains also operate on conventional tracks, the number of possible final destinations is very high.
However: on the few dedicated 300k lines in Germany (especially Frankfurt-Cologne), there is to my knowledge no conventional train service. Here, just as you have described for the case you are discussing here, ICE trains will stop occasionally at provincial stations to pick up passengers, with number of stops varying according to demand, but will more often than not head from metropolis to metropolis non-stop.
Ah sorry should have made myself clearer (when will I ever learn). I was referring exclusively to the ICE trains when I was using the tph figures, and it does seem true that ICEs do only get about 2 train paths per hour. Because of the speed differencials just 6 tph (in total) would give you a 3-minute headway in places making it difficult for trains to recover from delays.

From wikipedia:



I think it is pretty clear that many lines still see only 1-2 ICEs per hour and only a handful are capable of 250km/h and beyond.

On the Shanghai-Nanjing line I think there isn't going to be any speed differentials in the conventional sense i.e. their top running speed will be broadly similar, but acceleration/deceleration times will be quite considerable for a top speed >250km/h, though I'm not sure if station passing loops will be long enough to avoid the stopping trains slowing down the fast one behind.

Last edited by NCT; July 14th, 2010 at 06:50 PM.
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Old July 14th, 2010, 08:08 PM   #2978
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China, Argentina sign $10 billion railway deals

China Daily/Asia News Network

BEIJING - China and Argentina signed railway deals totaling $10 billion on Tuesday, amid efforts by Beijing to forge stronger commercial ties with Latin America.

Twelve agreements were reached between the two countries during Argentine President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner's five-day visit to China. Six deals were inked at noon, witnessed by Kirchner and Chinese Vice-Premier Hui Liangyu. The rest of the agreements were signed later in the day following talks between Kirchner and her Chinese counterpart Hu Jintao.

The 10 railway projects - ranging from two to five years - include the purchase of Chinese railway technology and investments in Argentina's rail line electrification projects, Argentine Transport Minister Juan Pablo Schiavi told AFP.

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Other deals cover areas like infrastructure, fishery, energy, and plant quarantine.

The two countries agreed to collaborate in light rail and subway construction in Argentina. China will also provide export credit to Argentina for purchases of locomotives.

At least three contracts focus on a $2.5 billion rail renovation project in Argentina's capital Buenos Aires. It requires the Argentine government to purchase materials and technologies for improving railway networks from two Chinese companies: China Northern Railway (CNR) and China Southern Railway (CSR).

During the talks, Hu and Kirchner also expressed wishes to push forward stronger trade ties.

China has become an increasingly important global player in the rail sector as its railway-related exports have been rising fast in the past years.

CSR, one of China's two major railway equipment manufacturers, said it signed contracts to export products worth $1.2 billion in 2009 alone, compared to less than $59 million in 2001.

"The exported products are high-end and more developed countries are on our client list," said a source from the corporation, who required anonymity.

CSR, which provides 70 percent of China's bullet trains in operation, is now exploring the markets of developed countries. Last year, it started exporting rapid transit vehicles and freight wagons to Singapore and Australia.

Analysts also expect high-speed railway related technologies and equipment to be the highlight of China's rail export in the future.

Yang Hao, professor in railway transport with Beijing Jiaotong University, said that compared to countries like Germany, France and Japan, China may not be able to excel in a single technology, but its advantage lies in "assembly" - absorbing advanced single technologies and bringing them together in one railway project.

To that effect, the Ministry of Railways has introduced high-speed train technologies from France, Germany and Japan in the past years, while making its own innovations.

"Absorbing others' strong points adds to China's competitiveness in the sector, in addition to other advantages such as lower construction cost and a shorter construction period," he said.

In China, it usually takes three to four years to build a high-speed railway. At least 10,000 km of high-speed rail line is now under construction.

As a newcomer in the high-speed railway market, China still has to learn to better meet the needs of potential clients, Yang said.

Earlier reports said the ministry wants to export China's high-speed railway technology to North America, Europe and Latin America.

Wang Zhiguo, vice-minister of railways, said in March that China's State-owned companies are already building high-speed lines in Turkey and Venezuela. Many countries, including the United States, Russia, Brazil and Saudi Arabia, have also expressed interest.
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Old July 15th, 2010, 05:57 PM   #2979
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To those who have complaints about underused stations on the Shanghai-Nanjing route. Keep in mind that infrastructure need to be built while keeping future development in mind.

The so called "underused" stations will become more popular as development takes place.

The true failure of an infrasturcture project is when it reaches capacity at opening.
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Old July 15th, 2010, 06:19 PM   #2980
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http://www.theage.com.au/travel/long...=1279177625151

Article on travelling around China using different classes of trains
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