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Old September 8th, 2010, 07:40 PM   #3201
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IMHO its the same reason why Emirates is buying both Airbus and Boeing - one single manufacturer isnt able to cover the demand in the desired timeframe (i.e. asap).
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Old September 8th, 2010, 07:55 PM   #3202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palatinus View Post
Chinese are buying all HSR technologies on the planet to copy them for the future. This is why they built the MAGLEV in Shanghai borrowing Siemens ThyssenKrupp HOWTO. The aim is the stealing of tech information.

Chinese are always the same. BEST COPYWORKER IN THE WORLD.
so you do understand the Chinese companies bought but not stole the technologies? and 'This is why they built the MAGLEV in Shanghai'? seems you don't know that maglev has nothing to do with HSR. get educated if you have no idea how business is run.

oh btw, get lost, troll.
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Old September 8th, 2010, 08:10 PM   #3203
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Obviously they bought the technologies, but their goal is RETROENGINEERING.

MAGLEV, clearly, isn't HSR on "iron lanes", but is always a train with different traction.

Eventually, are you chinese or a chinese fanboy?
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Old September 8th, 2010, 08:13 PM   #3204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palatinus View Post
Chinese are buying all HSR technologies on the planet to copy them for the future. This is why they built the MAGLEV in Shanghai borrowing Siemens ThyssenKrupp HOWTO. The aim is the stealing of tech information.

Chinese are always the same. BEST COPYWORKER IN THE WORLD.
dear troll:

I think you meant "technology transfer contract" (wich is much more expensive than just buying the products) instead of "steailng"!
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Old September 8th, 2010, 09:33 PM   #3205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobke90 View Post
Why so many different types of trains? Isn't it cheaper to make all the trains the same( the construction, but also the maintenance, the trainings etc)? by example one type for 380km/h, one for 350km/h , 250 km/h etc.

Market is big enough for all of them. Also, I believe they are trying to synthesize the best. Moreover, if you look at Japan, there are multiple producers hence models too.



As a side note: Please guys, save the trolls... these days have been really really hard on them. Light speed development of China puts a heavy burden :p
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Old September 8th, 2010, 11:15 PM   #3206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palatinus View Post
Chinese are buying all HSR technologies on the planet to copy them for the future. This is why they built the MAGLEV in Shanghai borrowing Siemens ThyssenKrupp HOWTO. The aim is the stealing of tech information.

Chinese are always the same. BEST COPYWORKER IN THE WORLD.
But I don't remember China buying and copying any technologies from Italy.

China does copy but at least China copies finest technologies from Japan and Germany. Even if the allegations are true but China managed to patch up the technologies from both Germany and Japan and created its own 380 kmph train and it is developing even faster trains with the knowledge acquired from the copied foundations. So ye maybe what you say in capital letters is true.
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Old September 8th, 2010, 11:17 PM   #3207
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The Italian technology came from the ETRs of which Alstom currently supplies to PRC, without the tilting technology.

That’s not to say they don’t have it, an X2 used to work the Guangshen line, so they could use that for ‘inspiration’.
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Old September 8th, 2010, 11:21 PM   #3208
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Alstom still has business in China ? I thought they are already barred from entering the Chinese market after their CEO ran amok with his verbal bonanza.

Not all countries have high speed train technologies, and certainly not all foreign high speed train technologies can crack the Chinese market, only a few best ones can. That applies to all industries really, that's why only a few products from particular countries can crack the Chinese market.

Last edited by snow is red; September 8th, 2010 at 11:27 PM.
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Old September 8th, 2010, 11:23 PM   #3209
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Their CRH5 product (ETR without tilt) is an under-performer in the Chinese market. The trains have been relegated to low temperate operating conditions. Why this happens is beyond me?! I suspect political motives behind this as well.

You see components (even if its only initial shell design) of the E2 (CRH2), Velaros (CRH3), Reginas (CRH1) being modified for 380km/h operation, yet the Alstom product doesn’t make it through….
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Old September 8th, 2010, 11:33 PM   #3210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cal_t View Post
Their CRH5 product (ETR without tilt) is an under-performer in the Chinese market. The trains have been relegated to low temperate operating conditions. Why this happens is beyond me?! I suspect political motives behind this as well.

You see components (even if its only initial shell design) of the E2 (CRH2), Velaros (CRH3), Reginas (CRH1) being modified for 380km/h operation, yet the Alstom product doesn’t make it through….
I thought that's already very obvious. You just have to read up what the Alstom CEO said to see why their products now simply cannot make it through any Chinese contracts. If China does really need the train technology from Alstom that no other competitors can offer then ofcourse the doors will be wide open for Alstom but apparently at the moment I think China is pretty content working with the Japanese and German technology.
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Old September 8th, 2010, 11:35 PM   #3211
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Care to post what he said? I’m not really into the political side of things, but will try and see the justified reason for it.

All I could find was:
http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/Alstom_(ALO-FR)

And:
http://seekingalpha.com/article/2227...all-transcript

What did he actually say?
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Old September 8th, 2010, 11:38 PM   #3212
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He called for a wordwide ban of Chinese trains import from all countries.
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Old September 8th, 2010, 11:40 PM   #3213
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It’s a bit extreme!~ Could see his rationale. But they did agree to the terms of technology xfers/so no breach of contract.
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Old September 8th, 2010, 11:42 PM   #3214
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I think that is Philippe Mellier, the CEO of Alstom Transportation, not Alstom CEO. But again he is also the company image.
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Old September 8th, 2010, 11:42 PM   #3215
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It’s a bit extreme!~ Could see his rationale. But they did agree to the terms of technology xfers/so no breach of contract.
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Old September 8th, 2010, 11:53 PM   #3216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fragel View Post
I think that is Philippe Mellier, the CEO of Alstom Transportation, not Alstom CEO. But again he is also the company image.
With Transportation or without Transportation, Alstom's entrance to the Chinese market is sealed tight.
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Old September 9th, 2010, 12:05 AM   #3217
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Somewhat related article from FT

Quote:
Wen calls bluff of moaning multinationals
By Geoff Dyer in Beijing
Published: July 20 2010 18:09 | Last updated: July 20 2010 18:09

Beware the wrath of a corporate titan scorned. A year ago, the bosses of the world’s largest companies oozed with praise for China’s handling of the global crisis. “Man, these guys are good,” Jeff Immelt, head of GE, told an audience at West Point.

Maybe it is the summer weather, but when the subject of Beijing comes up these days, multinationals seem to get hot under the collar. Mr Immelt confessed at a dinner in Rome earlier this month: “I am not sure that in the end they want any of us to win, or any of us to be successful.”

At the weekend, Jürgen Hambrecht, chief executive of German chemicals group BASF, and another corporate leader who has assiduously courted China, told Wen Jiabao, premier, that Beijing’s current approach to foreign companies “does not exactly correspond to our views of a partnership”.

According to reporters present, the exchange was so sharp that Mr Wen asked his German visitor to “calm down”.

Clearly, something has changed for many multinationals in China, even if there are few obvious new policies to explain the shift. In the technology sector, Beijing wants to use new “encryption” rules to get companies to hand over core software, while foreign companies are also hit by its public procurement policies and weak protection of intellectual property.

Some multinationals say they are getting a rougher ride from Chinese bureaucrats, despite all the hours spent courting them at banquets or making painfully polite speeches. Others complain that while their business is expanding, it is well short of expectations or the growth in their market.

Chinese companies are also getting better, fast. Although few are close to building international consumer brands, many Chinese groups are winning global success in markets for, say, power equipment, or machine tools or locomotives. It is no surprise complaints are coming from industrial groups such as GE and Siemens.

And in truth, China has always been a difficult place for foreign companies – and for local private businesses. The difference is that China is no longer a project for the future: it is so central to the prospects of many multinationals that routine difficulties and frustrations are top of the in-tray of the companies’ senior executives.

For all the obstacles, however, it is hard for multinationals to act too surprised. As Mr Immelt told his audience at West Point last year, China’s leaders “do exactly what they say they will do”. And one of the clearest objectives for the past three decades has been to leverage access to its vast market into technology transfers by foreign companies.

Nor is this some dastardly Chinese plan. Plenty of other nations have used a mixture of subsidies, tariffs and technology policies to try to kick-start their industrialisation including Japan, South Korea and – whisper this softly! – Germany and the US.

Ultimately, multinationals have only one real source of leverage – their investments. Foreign factories have played a key role in boosting Chinese productivity, bringing not only technology, but also skills, management techniques and international best practices. All the things, indeed, that China still needs to keep modernising its economy.

Beijing hopes it can have it both ways, using policy to boost its own companies while receiving new foreign factories. At a now infamous meeting last year in Brussels, Wang Qishan, vice-premier, dismissed complaints from a group of European executives. “You are going to invest there anyway,” he said. And he was right. Even with the crisis, foreign direct investment to China jumped 19.6 per cent in the first half of this year. China is essential to many industries, either because of the depth of its supplier networks or the size of its market.

However, there are also plenty of companies that have realistic alternatives for new facilities. And if Beijing saw that foreign investment really was dropping off, the bureaucracy would be very worried. Multinationals have a choice, therefore. They can complain as loud as they like about Chinese industrial policies, but if they continue to behave as if there is no alternative, Beijing will keep calling their bluff.
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Old September 9th, 2010, 01:00 AM   #3218
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China is going to have the most dynamic and extensive HSR system in the world. Meaning it will be the primary market for anything to do with HSR. So all these people angry about the China threat are just going to shoot themselves in the foot. They can call for bans on Chinese imports all they want because they aren't going to make enough money anywhere else to make stockholders happy. What the West doesn't talk about is that China makes things that use to be luxury items only availble to developed countries affordable in the developing world. They aren't going to be able to sell their trains in the developing world because it's just too expensive. If they do, you better believe there was some corruption pay-off that will blow up later on. If the developed world is upset, then they have all themselves to blame because they thought they could live in a world of extreme imbalances of their own making. Namely most of the world had to be poor so it was easier for them to control and exploit for themselves. Now that developing parts of the world are in competition with them, they don't like the very capitalist principles they've been hiding behind for centuries. They don't like China's cheap advantage... that's because you kept China poor at a time where all that concerned them was control and domination not democracy and freedom for all. Now they think money grows on trees and foreign governments are preventing equal pay compared to developed countries.

They think China's desire for domestic commercial airliners is going to fail too. Why? Simply because they think it's all about them not buying it. What they don't understand or are denial is that China's growing strength is the domestic market. So it doesn't matter if they think China's domestic airliners are inferior and not up to par with theirs. China, the biggest market for airplanes in the world, is going to buy them. They said the same thing about China's green energy technology. And look how China stomps all over them. They're still in denial because they think it boils down to if they don't accept it, it's going to fail. That's why they hate China because that doesn't work in China. If the Chinese were so pinning all their hopes and dreams on Western acceptance on anything, why are they complaining about China then? Wouldn't China be bowing down to their every command when they dangle and tease their acceptance? Those that didn't want China to have the Olympics concentrated their tactics on trying to turn Westerners away from attending the Olympics. They thought through their ignorant prejudices that if the world saw empty seats because the much needed Westerners weren't there at the Olympics they would be victorious. Guess what? There were stories that Beijing helped them out by denying visas to many Westerners. And with that you still saw the Bird's Nest filled to capacity and a grand successful Olympics was displayed. Just like with HSR, they continue to be denial and think they are the only ones that matter. Europeans aren't going to buy Chinese HSR because they have to protect their own. Same with Japan. Do they feel secure anyway? You better believe it they don't. How much is the US going to spend on HSR? Only a fraction of what China is spending. So they can bluster and cry and whine and expose to the world how now because it doesn't work in their favor, they don't believe in the very things they've been trying to force onto everyone else for centuries. Watch out for democracy next.
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Old September 9th, 2010, 02:48 AM   #3219
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Well Europe is going to be moribund, although not dead, and this is why

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympia...%C3%A9matiques

America will still be active, but more and more Asian--In 2010 INTEL Science Talent Search, 5 of top 10 are Ethnic Chinese, who only account for 1% of US population.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/21/op...1friedman.html

Last edited by 2009UNC; September 9th, 2010 at 03:06 AM.
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Old September 9th, 2010, 03:49 AM   #3220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palatinus View Post
Chinese are buying all HSR technologies on the planet to copy them for the future. This is why they built the MAGLEV in Shanghai borrowing Siemens ThyssenKrupp HOWTO. The aim is the stealing of tech information.

Chinese are always the same. BEST COPYWORKER IN THE WORLD.
absolute truth!
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