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Old September 22nd, 2010, 06:34 AM   #3361
Bandit
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Looking at the other threads of other countries' HSR... what country doesn't have overhead lines? Aren't third rails usually found in metro subway systems? I know someone who works for a transit system with a third rail. You what they find from time to time? Pieces of people who dared to try to cross the third rail but accidentally touched it and exploded. You know like how insects explode when they touch electric pest control devices? Maybe that's a reason why there's no third rail.
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Old September 22nd, 2010, 07:37 AM   #3362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandit View Post
Looking at the other threads of other countries' HSR... what country doesn't have overhead lines? Aren't third rails usually found in metro subway systems? I know someone who works for a transit system with a third rail. You what they find from time to time? Pieces of people who dared to try to cross the third rail but accidentally touched it and exploded. You know like how insects explode when they touch electric pest control devices? Maybe that's a reason why there's no third rail.
Most modern transit systems should have isolated the third rail so that you don't get electrocuted when you come into contact. However, if you touch both the third rail and another rail, the circuit will be closed and the electricity will flow. Rain and water may also close the circuit.
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Old September 22nd, 2010, 08:39 AM   #3363
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A college student in Beijing recently died of this in a tragic accident. He fell onto the subway track and was killed by electric shock from the third rail (seems impossible for him to touch it from the angle he fell).
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Old September 22nd, 2010, 11:27 AM   #3364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G5man View Post
And at three times the cost and not proven
Nope, in the meantime, the costs are equal. :-)
At least for the german Transrapid Maglev System with Boegl guideway
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Old September 22nd, 2010, 12:50 PM   #3365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fragel View Post
I think the suggested speed of trains on third-rail electrification systems is less than 100 mph (160kmph) due to mechanical limitation. Part of Eurostar is electrified by third-rail, but speed on that part is low..
The Eurostar trains were equipped for third rail because there was no high speed line between London and the Channel Tunnel when the service began in 1994, so the trains had to run on existing lines electrified with third rail. Now that the high speed line has been opened, the third rail hardware has been removed from the trains.
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Old September 23rd, 2010, 07:17 AM   #3366
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I don't think this has been posted, so it would be great to add it to the list below. source: sina.com.cn
--
Construction of a PDL from Huhehaote (AKA Hohhot), Inner Mongolia to Zhangjiakou, Hebei is planned to start by the end of this year, once the environmental evaluation is done. The 286 km line will have six stations and cost 32.82 billion RMB (about 4.9 billion US dollars). It is scheduled to open in 2014. This line will be connected with the Beijing-Zhangjiakou PDL.

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Originally Posted by greenlion View Post
some of the newly planned HSR lines that tend to start construction in second half year 2010.
Code:
Line          section                 Length     designed  Construction  planned 
                                                  Speed      start       open date
Jingshi ICL   Beijing-Zhangjiakou     174 km      350km/h    2010         2013
Jingtang ICL  Beijing-Tangshan        163 km      350km/h    2010         2012
Jingshen PDL  Beijing-Shenyang        684 km      350km/h    2010         2014
Shiji PDL     Shijiazhuang-Jinan      319 km      350km/h    2010         2012
Changkun PDL  Changsha-Kunming       1175 km      350km/h    2010         2014
Hajia PDL     Harbin-Jiamusi          345 km      250km/h    2010.7       2014.6
Jihun PDL     Jilin-Hunchun           378 km      250km/h    2010         2012
Hanghuang PDL Hangzhou-Huangshan      262 km      250km/h    2010         2013
Xicheng PDL   Xi'an-Chengdu           676 km      250km/h    2010         2013
Zhengluo ICL  Zhengzhou-Luoyang       145 km      200km/h    2010         2012
ChengMianle   Chengdu-Leshan       323.19 km      250km/h    2010         2012
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Old September 23rd, 2010, 07:18 AM   #3367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gag Halfrunt View Post
The Eurostar trains were equipped for third rail because there was no high speed line between London and the Channel Tunnel when the service began in 1994, so the trains had to run on existing lines electrified with third rail. Now that the high speed line has been opened, the third rail hardware has been removed from the trains.
Thanks for the clarification and update!
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Old September 23rd, 2010, 10:26 AM   #3368
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Also to clarify the speed limit on the 3rd rail region in the UK is 100mph.

Further info for Geography, understanding the development of power supplies explains why all HSR needs to use overhead electrification, at least at the moment.

3rd rail was invented first, when all power supplies were DC. Over head power arrived at around the same time, but again this was DC. DC has a transmission problem, in that it loses voltage quite quickly as you move away from the power source - i.e. the supply transformer. Higher voltages allow a better transmission, unfortunately this applies not only the conductor but to the air surrounding it. Engineers increase the voltage to the maximum before arcing can occur from the conductor direct to ground through the air. With a 3rd rail this is around 700-800v DC. At this low mximum voltage a sub-station is required every 2km or so along the line to supply the rails - and this is costly.

Now, the 3rd rail network in the UK can support trains up to 100mph with the current transformers (curves permitting), but a high speed train requires 8 times the amount of power per ton to get to 200mph (and HSR trains are typically longer and therefore heavier than the commuter trains in the UK). A 1000km HSL would need at least 500 extremely high powered transformer supply points dotted along the line. It is not an elegant solution.

Over head power supplies allow the voltage to be increased, reducing the number of supply transformers required. However, DC is inherently lossy, and if you up the voltage you still have the same loss of actual energy being turned into heat and lost to the atmosphere.

AC is the solution to long-distance transmission and avoiding such high transmission losses. This is indeed why the power to your house is supplied in this way. AC allows the voltage to be increased significantly, to 25kV (standard in railways except in Germany/Austria), it allows a significant increase in power output as it is easier to build high power transformers in AC (not sure if this is due to economies of scale in manfacturing as so many more AC ones are built in general) and this means that supply transformers are only needed avery 20-25 km or so along the line. A 1000km line would then only need about 40 transformers.

AC overhead supply is cheaper to build for long distances, is more efficient and it provides higher power for less money.
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Old September 23rd, 2010, 10:36 AM   #3369
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How about make a straddling HSR/maglev going opposite way of HSR/maglev line?
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Old September 23rd, 2010, 10:53 AM   #3370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geography View Post
Why don't they build a third rail like Singapore does for its above-ground MRT? The third rail would provide power and keep the railroad clear of obstacles that obstruct the view for passengers and residents.
Third rail electrification is not suitable for high speed rail. High speeds trains need a lot of power, that needs to be delivered reliable. This is probably the biggest engineering challenge in high speed rail, and the reason why France first intended to run their TGVs using gas turbines.
To deliver high amounts of power you need high tension, otherwise the currents get to high. Power (Watt) is Voltage times Amperage. So to deliver the 8MW or so a HSTneeds using say, a 900V third rail you would have a current of almost 9000 Amperes. That is a lot, and a big problem. There have been incidents where a Eurostars' power shoe got welded to the rail.
This is not a problem in mass transit applications where the power demanded by the train is lower, and speeds are lower.
Another problem is to maintain contact between the conductor and the power pickup. With a heave power shoe running along the top of a rail this is a problem at higher speeds. Lots of arcing often results. The best solution is to use a light overhead wire, and a light pantograph. Even then maintaining sufficient contat at high speed remains a challenge. During TGV record runs the pantrograph was continously monitored.
The last issue is power distribution. Alternating current at high voltages is easily distributed. For a low voltage DC system you need a lot more power feed stations distributed along your line, making it more expensive.

All these factors combine to make 25KV AC overhead electrification the choice for all high speed projects, and even for all new mainline electrifications.
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Old September 23rd, 2010, 05:21 PM   #3371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
Engineers increase the voltage to the maximum before arcing can occur from the conductor direct to ground through the air. With a 3rd rail this is around 700-800v DC. At this low mximum voltage a sub-station is required every 2km or so along the line to supply the rails - and this is costly.
Not entirely true. In France, there was a line ("la ligne de la Maurienne")
between Chambery and Modane, that was electrified with a third rail
energized at 1500 V DC. Some of the CC 6500 DC locomotives were equipped
with third rail shoes to work on it. But this caused too many problems and
the line was finally re-electrified with a classical 1500 V DC catenary.
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Old September 23rd, 2010, 05:48 PM   #3372
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Thanks for the responses K and makita.
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Old September 24th, 2010, 10:24 AM   #3373
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No problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Not entirely true. In France, there was a line ("la ligne de la Maurienne")
between Chambery and Modane, that was electrified with a third rail
energized at 1500 V DC. Some of the CC 6500 DC locomotives were equipped
with third rail shoes to work on it. But this caused too many problems and
the line was finally re-electrified with a classical 1500 V DC catenary.
Thanks for that, I was unaware.
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Old September 25th, 2010, 12:35 AM   #3374
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Xiamen station is amazing, but I still think the Wuhan one is the most impressive out of all Chinese HS stations.
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Old September 25th, 2010, 09:04 AM   #3375
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Asia largest railway station---xi'an north railway station

xi'an north railway station
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image hosted on flickr

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image hosted on flickr

image hosted on flickr

image hosted on flickr

image hosted on flickr

Last edited by diting; September 25th, 2010 at 09:36 AM.
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Old September 25th, 2010, 09:16 AM   #3376
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nanjing south railway station under construction

nanjing south railway station
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image hosted on flickr

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image hosted on flickr

image hosted on flickr

image hosted on flickr

image hosted on flickr

image hosted on flickr

image hosted on flickr

image hosted on flickr

image hosted on flickr

image hosted on flickr

image hosted on flickr

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Old September 25th, 2010, 06:07 PM   #3377
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Awsome update, thanks diting.

As a greedy person, is there any recent updates for Guangzhou station?
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Old September 26th, 2010, 04:08 AM   #3378
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diting View Post
xi'an north railway station
Regarding the title, I've seen various stations in China claiming itself to be the largest in Asia. Very funny but also very confusing, since the title of 'largest in China' is not even determined yet. I hope these stations could provide some evidence before saying so(at least specify 'biggest' in terms of what). I know at least Guangzhou South Station(0.5 million m^2) is bigger than Xi'an North(0.3 million m^2) in terms of area.
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Last edited by fragel; September 26th, 2010 at 11:38 AM.
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Old September 26th, 2010, 04:10 AM   #3379
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@ foxmulder, watch from 3:18

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Old September 26th, 2010, 11:10 AM   #3380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fragel View Post
Regarding the title, I've seen various stations in China claiming itself to be the largest in Asia. Very funny but also very confusing, since the title of 'largest in China' is not even determined yet. I hope these stations could provide some evidence before saying so(at least specify 'biggest' in terms of what). I know at least Guangzhou South Station(0.5 million m^2) is bigger than Xi'an North(0.3 million m^2) in terms of footage.
In terms of platform
xi'an north is the largest high speed railway station: 18 platforms 34 lines
in terms of floor area xi'an north is also the largest station

Last edited by diting; September 26th, 2010 at 11:20 AM.
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