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Old May 27th, 2007, 04:32 AM   #321
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If pointing out the facts is trolling then I am guilt as charged but then you only have a$$ licking mindless propaganda followers at any forum.

PRC was demanding Transrapid transfer of technology which Transrapid refused, so PRC announces postponement of Shanghai-Hangzhou route because of baseless accusation concerning environment safety to save face.

No it is not POLITICAL it's petty PRIDE.

How can you trust a govenment if they can't swallow it up and do their sworn duties to show accountability?

If it was truely an environment safety concern then they should shut down the present line as well and announce whatever data they based their concern and have a third party to examine it.
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Old May 27th, 2007, 05:47 AM   #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
If pointing out the facts is trolling then I am guilt as charged but then you only have a$$ licking mindless propaganda followers at any forum.

PRC was demanding Transrapid transfer of technology which Transrapid refused, so PRC announces postponement of Shanghai-Hangzhou route because of baseless accusation concerning environment safety to save face.

No it is not POLITICAL it's petty PRIDE.

How can you trust a govenment if they can't swallow it up and do their sworn duties to show accountability?

If it was truely an environment safety concern then they should shut down the present line as well and announce whatever data they based their concern and have a third party to examine it.

You based all of your judgement on a ten-line story, then started your anti-Chinese government ranting. Don't you find yourself simple-minded? This short story is from the AP, since when did we ever read any objective and comprehensive coverage on Chinese issues from them? This news story was first released by local Chinese media, and then some foreign media like the AP just intentionally picked up particular fragments of the whole story to present to their readers, and then some stupid readers instantly jumped to quick conclusions out of their pre-set minds.

Why shouldn't the radiation be a concern? Do you know the huge difference between the neighborhoods the current mag-lev line and the proposed line run across? Apparently you know nothing, so please stop making yourself an ignorant and noisy fool.

There have been lots of debates about this Shanghai-Hangzhou mag-lev line in China since the very first day it was proposed. The huge investment, the safety, the interest-conflict between the Shanghai and Zhejiang government, the recent changing of leaders in Shanghai and the ensuing power struggle, and of course also the big mess of technology transfer, all these issues have been entangled together on these mag-lev lines. Of course I am sure there are still some inside stories and hidden politics that the general public in China and also the rest of the world would never know, simply because of the control of Chinese government on our media. But wouldn't it be more interesting if we look at the whole thing from multiple perspective? And also, could some ideologically-charged guys stop ranting and dishing out those simple-minded judgements after reading just a ten-line story from a crappy new source like the AP? The world would be such a better place if these guys didn't exist.
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Old May 27th, 2007, 07:11 AM   #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ningxiard View Post
You based all of your judgement on a ten-line story, then started your anti-Chinese government ranting. Don't you find yourself simple-minded? This short story is from the AP, since when did we ever read any objective and comprehensive coverage on Chinese issues from them? This news story was first released by local Chinese media, and then some foreign media like the AP just intentionally picked up particular fragments of the whole story to present to their readers, and then some stupid readers instantly jumped to quick conclusions out of their pre-set minds.

Why shouldn't the radiation be a concern? Do you know the huge difference between the neighborhoods the current mag-lev line and the proposed line run across? Apparently you know nothing, so please stop making yourself an ignorant and noisy fool.

There have been lots of debates about this Shanghai-Hangzhou mag-lev line in China since the very first day it was proposed. The huge investment, the safety, the interest-conflict between the Shanghai and Zhejiang government, the recent changing of leaders in Shanghai and the ensuing power struggle, and of course also the big mess of technology transfer, all these issues have been entangled together on these mag-lev lines. Of course I am sure there are still some inside stories and hidden politics that the general public in China and also the rest of the world would never know, simply because of the control of Chinese government on our media. But wouldn't it be more interesting if we look at the whole thing from multiple perspective? And also, could some ideologically-charged guys stop ranting and dishing out those simple-minded judgements after reading just a ten-line story from a crappy new source like the AP? The world would be such a better place if these guys didn't exist.
Wow ! A hard-core communist fundamentalist.
First look at the facts.
It is electromagnetic radiation not particle radiation, electromagnetic radiation is floating all-over our modern world. Cell-phones, radio, television, electric power lines, so on and so forth. Any kind of metallic coil that runs electrcity radiate electromagnetic radiation. As I stated before our own planet radiates electromagnetism.
Danger to prolonged exposure has been long studied and their is no toxicity as long as it is within certain levels. The German TUEV tested them and certified them. PRC accepted those figures, that is why the Shanghai-airport line was approved and built in the first place.

I have gone through this couple of threads and picked up some posting that the local, municipal and other governmental bodies approved this project with praise.
Here are the links;

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2...ent_868138.htm

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=128

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...1&postcount=74

If they decided to postpone they should have announced the facts not some lame cover up story which doesn't hold water in the first place and smear dirt into Germany to keep their own face.

If their were protest concerning this project and you had concerns, why didn't you voice them when they first announced the project?
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Old May 27th, 2007, 07:15 AM   #324
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Old May 27th, 2007, 08:45 AM   #325
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Maglev Made in China

To shed some light on the ever developing question of why they might be delaying the Transrapid construction.

Here's a picture of another Maglev train, only this time made by Changchun Passanger Train Works. Two end cars have been manufactured so far and both are under testing in Shanghai's TongJing University.

This is actually a really old trick in the books. Its more like a warning to the Germans saying that you can either give us the technology and have us pay you for it, or we can just build it our selves in a couple more years and you won't get a cent.

The Russians had to bite the bullet the last time they rejected to give tech transfers for the Su-27upgrade kits to Shenyang Aircraft Works, and shortly after that they lost all orders for the Su-27 and Su-30MKK. Shenyang is now happily making their own version of the upgraded Su-27s with 100 percent Chinese made parts.

Let's hope the Germans don't make the same mistake.

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Old May 27th, 2007, 11:35 AM   #326
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wahooo, now this is what I call a chinese copy....

Are more pitctures of that train availabe? Where in Shanghai is the test track, how long is it and how fast do they want to go with that maglev?

I wonder if its compatible to the existing maglev line in Shanghai (SMTDC) and if they want to use it, to extend the line sooner or later without zu germans.

I cant believe it... the guidway, the vehicle itself, the levitation frames...everything looks exactly the same then it does on the german original!!!!!

Do they plan to make something like a public presentation of this?
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Old May 27th, 2007, 11:58 AM   #327
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its time that western politicians do something about this technology theft...it cant go on like this.....

If you want to buy oil, you have to pay for it. If you want to buy a car, you have to pay for it. If you want technology...well. then you can steal it or what??????

Thats crazy, germany should seirously think about consequences on that...
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Old May 27th, 2007, 12:21 PM   #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UD2 View Post
<Edited>

This is actually a really old trick in the books. Its more like a warning to the Germans saying that you can either give us the technology and have us pay you for it, or we can just build it our selves in a couple more years and you won't get a cent.

The Russians had to bite the bullet the last time they rejected to give tech transfers for the Su-27upgrade kits to Shenyang Aircraft Works, and shortly after that they lost all orders for the Su-27 and Su-30MKK. Shenyang is now happily making their own version of the upgraded Su-27s with 100 percent Chinese made parts.

Let's hope the Germans don't make the same mistake.
This could easily flash over to become a trades war with EU if PRC keeps it up.
Yeah, I know. PRC's logic is that since China is a big market, EU would turn a blind eye and let this fly as usual...
EU may accept defeat or EU may use it's influence over the finacial industry to place pressure using nation credit evaluation rate as leverage.
Remember they have to save face as much as PRC does.
I also wonder how the German automobile industry which is investing heavily in mainland china, would respond to this kind of extortion also.
In any case PRC is losing whatever international reputation they had left with these kind of stunts.
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Old May 27th, 2007, 12:27 PM   #329
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the Point is, that in the not to distant future, all Businismen and Politicians in Europe and the US will find out, that you cannot make any money in deals with china, simply because you whole know how, all technologies and patenst are stolen and used against you after some years.

Just look at that Brilliance BMW thing...Maybe BMW is making some money in China, actually most western fims dont, and just hope they will do so in the future what keeps investments flowing...but in some years, they will find out, that they lost much more than they gained.

And dont forget, that most western countries already do have a negative import-export ration with china....
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Old May 27th, 2007, 12:55 PM   #330
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whatever, we will be the winner.

japan? keep licking your master's ass.

US? for PPP GDP you are not the largest economy anymore in next two years.

no body care about your investments, if you don't want, just leave it.

we can make everything soon by ourself.

did japan copy and stolen tec before? yes, thousands years from China, and

200 years from the west. still using chinese now, still copy french car now.

there is no that most western countries ... blablabla...

only you alone, USA.
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Old May 27th, 2007, 12:58 PM   #331
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thanks,

its good that the chinese start showing their real face.
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Old May 27th, 2007, 01:21 PM   #332
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I would like to ask japanese members here a question, Why are u guys so concerned about China and its issues, I dont really see any Chinese members on this forum participate in any Japan-related topics/issues.
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Old May 27th, 2007, 01:24 PM   #333
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Financial way, please watch your words, you are not doing any good for China. This guy does not represent Chinese people at all.
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Old May 27th, 2007, 01:27 PM   #334
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that guy is unimportant...the facts speak enough about china today.

Does anybody have any inforamtion about that Chinese-Copy Transrapid?

Maybe some more pics of the vehicle and the track?

Maybe someone could find some on the website http://bbs.hasea.com and link them here?
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Old May 27th, 2007, 01:56 PM   #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02tonyl View Post
I would like to ask japanese members here a question, Why are u guys so concerned about China and its issues, I dont really see any Chinese members on this forum participate in any Japan-related topics/issues.
Concerned?
Interested maybe, well come to think of it a little concerned since we are seeing alot of problems lately.
Although the following maybe off topic but, there has been a rise of industrial espionage cases by PRC citizens and a few agaisnt the JMSDF.
I also notice alot of hazardous exports like the tainted dog food and proceed fish meat in the US, tainted medicine in middle America and lead tainted cookingware in Japan that is creating a scare globally.
As for forum participation, for your information their are tons of CCP trolls rampaging various Japanese forums making baseless accusations.

There are trade secrets, patended ideas, and copyright art work. They are all proprietary with people and companies alike investing huge amount of their time and money to develop them.
If PRC does not understand the fundamental concept then it will not be long before everybody starts leaving because there is not enough insentive how ever large to justify violation of their proprietary assets.
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Old May 27th, 2007, 03:04 PM   #336
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Please do not feed other trolls, keep this forum peaceful please. Yes China has a lot of works to do like her food industry, the government needs to track down the criminals and punish them. The chinese government already has a 5 year plan to improve the country's food safety standards. And for the German maglev, I hope the maglev that being developed by the shanghai university is not a copy of the german one, I hope they just learn from the German tech and design the trains and track on their own, or even better that China just buy off the technology from germany, mutual benefits.China has been investing a lot in R&D, so please do not assume that everything China made is a ripoff, copy. Yes maybe they took/copy the external design but tech is self developed.

Thank you for reading
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Old May 27th, 2007, 05:39 PM   #337
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pflo777

I just found interesting articles here if you dont mind reading them

http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/inde...ina-maglev.xml



"Even after the German government intervened to clarify the issue, the public was not entirely convinced. Germany began to feel uneasy at this time....."

"German national television said people should be aware of two issues following the accident. Firstly, Germany must admit that Chinese people have their own technology. Chinese experts have spent 20 years tackling these technological challenges; "the Chinese have been studying maglev technology carefully so that they will be able to compete in five years." Secondly, they need to concede that the German technology is not as "miraculous" as was believed. Germany certainly has room for improvement. ....."

http://english.people.com.cn/200608/...17_294049.html


"Nowadays, there are three types of magnetic levitation technology in the world, namely, superconducting electromagnetic levitation, normal-conducting electromagnetic levitation and permanent magnetic levitation. The first one is developed and possessed by Japan. The second is developed and owned by Germany. The third is independently developed by the Dalian permanent magnetic levitation project team, and is an innovation completely controlled by China. It is an entirely new technology......"

http://english.people.com.cn/200607/...24_286049.html

"The Dalian permanent magnetic levitation project team started to do research on permanent magnetic levitation in 1998. From 1998 to 2006, the project team made a number of breakthroughs and devised many innovative techniques. On August 7th 2003, a magnetically levitated vehicle made by the team for conveying park visitors was successful in the operation test, indicating that China has its own magnetic levitation technology. After that, the project team succeeded in solving 5 major technical issues. On December 26th 2004, they made a permanent maglev train that made satisfactory performances on a 70-meter long track during operation test.

Magnetic engine is the core technique of a maglev train. The magnetic engine inside a permanent maglev train is a decentralized power device developed by China on its own. This type of engine can help to cut costs dramatically and can reduce energy consumption by about 50 percent. The Dalian project team has managed to develop two types of magnetic engines, one with traction of 105 newtons and the other with traction of 15,000 newtons. The former, with a rated velocity of 140 kilometers per hour and a maximum velocity of 218 kilometers per hour, aims to be used in low-speed permanent maglev train. The latter, with a rated velocity of 268 kilometers per hour and a maxim velocity of 536 kilometers per hour, can be adopted in medium-speed passenger or cargo permanent maglev train....."

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/20...nt_5725990.htm

http://www.chinaeconomicreview.com/l...-test-by-2010/



As you can see , China does sincerely want to develop its own technology to serve its people, China is investing a lot of money into R&D, therefore I believe Chinese scientists can come up with their own development, as you can read from those articles above, Chinese have been studying maglev tech for the past 20 years, they dont just come up with that technology from nowhere.Yes the current German maglev tech is far better than the Chinese, and chinese maglev tech will have a lot of problems but they are trying to tackle these problems.

And even if Chinese want to build the maglev on their with German tech , i am pretty sure the Chinese government will pay to buy off the patent like they when they bought the high speed bullet trains technology from Germany, France and Japan (The chinese sides pay them all).

So lastly, please dont quickly assume that Chinese scientists cannot develop its own technology, and all they can do is to copy.They are doing hard work there too

Thank you for reading

Last edited by snow is red; May 27th, 2007 at 10:28 PM.
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Old May 27th, 2007, 06:00 PM   #338
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it would be very helpfull if we could get more information on the maglev that is shown on the big picutre.

Maybe some of the chinese speaking guys could translate that for me as al the online translators suck)



http://news.21cn.com/domestic/yaowen.../3234841.shtml



记者:长客最近在产品研发方面还有哪些新动向?

董晓峰:我们已经研制出了时速达到350公里的动车组,将在明年投入“京津城际轨道”运行,这条线路区间大概是120公里左右,中间有几个站点,全程运行时间只需20多分钟。






长客董事长董晓峰 本报记者 郭亮 摄


记者:350公里是我们已经研制出的最高速度吗?

董晓峰:其实,长客从2003年起即开始研制磁悬浮列车,这个项目得到了国家支持,被列入“863计划”,它的速度更快,设计时速达到550公里。

记者:磁悬浮列车研究进展怎么样?

董晓峰:几年来,这方面研制经费已投入了近亿元,现已生产出一辆约27米长的车头,它代表着国内在这方面最尖端的科技。目前,这辆“磁悬浮”正在上海某大学进行“悬浮试验”,测试悬浮状态下的设施运行情况,结果令人满意。由于试验段只有一公里长,现在还没办法测试它的真正速度,到底何时测试实际运行速度,还要看国家有关方面的具体安排。

昨日,长春轨道客车股份有限公司董事长董晓峰接受了本报记者独家专访。据他透露,长客已研制出一辆设计时速达550公里的磁悬浮列车车头,正在上海某大学进行试验。

动车组

国外公司抢着和我们合作

记者:外界对于4月18日起投入使用的动车组一直很感兴趣,在它的研制过程中,您最难忘的事情是什么?

董晓峰:动车组的技术是从国外引进的,合作过程中遇到许多难题。说到最难忘的事,是在选择合作对象时,掌握这门技术的一些国外公司都抢着和我们合作。事后我分析了,他们主要是看好了中国经济的发展速度和高速列车的发展前景,及长客的实力。|

记者:技术既然是引进的,那么在合作过程中,我们除了动车组,还有其他的收获吗?

董晓峰:国外公司的目的是赚钱,我们的目的是引进并学习。外方在合作中,也想在某些技术方面对我们有所制约,但双方接触后,我们也得到了想要的东西。

记者:我是不是可以这样理解,通过合作,我们掌握了动车组的相关研发技术?

董晓峰:我同意你的理解。

人们对动车组晚点很敏感

记者:投入使用后的动车组也遇到了一些麻烦,比如说列车晚点成了新闻,您怎么评价这件事?

董晓峰:过去中国铁路交通是低速时代,慢车出了问题晚一点,大家也不在意。现在逐渐进入了高速时代,大家对运行速度就比较敏感了,一旦有事都挺关注,这很正常。

记者:您认为是什么问题导致了动车组的晚点?

董晓峰:晚点不只在北方,南方也出现了这个问题。我分析原因主要有五个,第一是动车组本身调试周期短,还有一些没调试到位,需要一些时间;第二是个别操作者还没摸透驾驶方法,因为操作不当而出现故障;第三是维护和保养方面,高速技术对中国企业是个课题,对铁路运营单位也有个适应问题;第四是运行环境,国外运行线路没有道砟,都是水泥面,车快起来也不会飞沙走石,不存在把车打坏的情况;第五是网压不稳的问题,动车组运行需要电网的网压稳定在2.2万伏左右,一旦网压超出一定幅度,动车组会启动自我保护装置进入低速运行状态。

(更多热点新闻,请关注21CN新闻)



下一篇:中国政府全力搜救“5 12”船舶碰撞事故失踪人员

Edit: somehow the fancy green white livery of that maglev looks like it was made to match the Expo Logo...what would have made sence, if the line was extended...


Last edited by pflo777; May 27th, 2007 at 06:14 PM.
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Old May 27th, 2007, 06:13 PM   #339
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First off, I don't know were one news source got it's 20 years research when the other article clear claims;
Quote:
The Dalian permanent magnetic levitation project team started to do research on permanent magnetic levitation in 1998.
Second, since the articles does not specify the fundemental principle for the so called "permanent magnetic levitation" so I can not be sure but,the transrapid system uses "ferromagnetic stator" or permanent magnets so from what I can read from the article I can not see any difference.
In other words, the article is basically writing vaporware without any substance.

Patents are usually not sold, they are leased since owners of that patent will be able to make more profit through this arrangement. I am sure none of the nations you mentioned sold their proprietary assets. I also believe that they placed clauses within the contract stating that they will terminate any arrangement if they find PRC infringing the contract.
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Old May 27th, 2007, 06:33 PM   #340
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There are tons of articles talking about "permanent magnetic levitation", but they are mostly in Chinese so you have to search "永磁悬浮"。

This is one article:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/st/2006-06...nt_4664370.htm

Which clearly states that "permanent magnetic levitation" differ from all other existing technology in that electricity is not needed, because some "permanent magnetic material" is used. These "permanent magnetic material" originates from rare earth elements, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_earth_element. China has abundant such resources, highest in the world maybe, in Inner Mongolia.

The permanent magnetic levitation is a brand-new concept.
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