daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old May 27th, 2007, 06:33 PM   #341
didu
Lord of the Ring
 
didu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 887
Likes (Received): 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777 View Post
wahooo, now this is what I call a chinese copy....
If I understand correctly, that "copy" has a top speed of 550k/hr. Maybe your German trains can go as fast or faster, but that doesn't mean the Chinese shouldn't be able to do the same.

In terms of IP, if the technology of your German trains are patented, then sooner or later, the patents will expire and then the technology will be fair game to anyone. China can just wait for a few decades and save its money. If your technology is kept as commercial secrets, then you have to take the risk of your secrets getting out.

I don't see the benefit for China to spend huge quantities of money on foreign maglev trains. The technology is obviously too expensive to implement on even a broad regional level, and there are plenty of alternative transportation systems that are much less costly and could function in a similar capacity as the maglev trains. Put it simply, from China's perspective, it doesn't make much commercial sense to simply pay large amounts of cash to your Germans to build a couple of train lines in a region that already has an excellent transportation network.

After all, this is business. If you Germans feel you are getting a bad deal, feel free to pull out and terminate the negotiations -- that way, you Germans get to keep your advanced technology, and the Chinese get to keep their cash, or spend their cash on other things.
__________________
My photo blog
didu no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old May 27th, 2007, 06:51 PM   #342
snow is red
Vicky Pollard lol
 
snow is red's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 5,078
Likes (Received): 119

pflo and tri-ring

Your comments are appreciated, but please do not quickly jump to wild conclusions. There is no doubts about German, and Japanese great advanced technology, but it does not mean that China has to copy from Germany, she can do her own bit as well

Didu, I have to say that i do not agree with you, you only can say that when the tech is successfully tested in 2010.

Thank you for reading
snow is red no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 27th, 2007, 06:55 PM   #343
tiger
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Chongqing,重庆
Posts: 2,963
Likes (Received): 20

Quote:
Originally Posted by 02tonyl View Post
There is no doubts about German, and Japanese great advanced technology
^Who knows?
tiger no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 27th, 2007, 07:03 PM   #344
Tri-ring
Expert
 
Tri-ring's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 459
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by wigo View Post
There are tons of articles talking about "permanent magnetic levitation", but they are mostly in Chinese so you have to search "永磁悬浮"。

This is one article:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/st/2006-06...nt_4664370.htm

Which clearly states that "permanent magnetic levitation" differ from all other existing technology in that electricity is not needed, because some "permanent magnetic material" is used. These "permanent magnetic material" originates from rare earth elements, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_earth_element. China has abundant such resources, highest in the world maybe, in Inner Mongolia.

The permanent magnetic levitation is a brand-new concept.
Ah, hello !!
In case you didn't know, permenent magnets can't change polarity unless extreme heat and magnetism is applied and the process is slow.
The underlying principle for any type of maglev propulsion is to utilize the repulsion-attraction effect of magnets and switch the polarity so continuous motion is achieved.
The only way I can think of to switch polarity using permenent magnets is by mechanically turning them around which is nonsense since it will take much more power than electro magnets.
It is meaningless to claim of another method since both method can not be patented in the first place.
Technical patents for Transrapid lays within the track design, switching mechanism, power management and various other hardware and software to operate the system.
Now if the previous picture is truely what it claims to be, then there is already suspicion of patent infringement in track design which I do not think Transrapid will take lightly.
__________________
banned for denial of war crimes in world war 2.

Last edited by Tri-ring; May 27th, 2007 at 07:13 PM.
Tri-ring no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 27th, 2007, 07:11 PM   #345
pflo777
BANNED
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,456
Likes (Received): 89

the germans sold the patents for the track already in 2001, when the first line was built.
They were also willing to "give up" the construciton of the vehicle itself and the interior and let this be done by chinses firms.
( a joint venture partner that builds the cabin)
What they were never willing to give up was the core technology of the levitation system.

You could compare it to Boeing (USA) and Rolls Royce (GB) One makes the planes, the other one the engines.

In this case, China would have made about 90% and Germany 10%.
But that was not enought for the chinese side.....

Well, we`ll see what the future will bring..
pflo777 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 27th, 2007, 07:12 PM   #346
wigo
BANNED
 
wigo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Xiaoshan, Zhejiang 浙江萧山
Posts: 1,274
Likes (Received): 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
Ah, hello !!
In case you didn't know, permenent magnets can't change polarity unless extreme heat is applied and the process is very slow.
The underlying principle for any type of maglev propulsion is to utilize the repulsion-attraction effect of magnets and switch the polarity so continuous motion is achieved.
The only way I can think of to switch polarity using permenent magnets is by mechanically turning them around which is nonsense since it will take much more power than electro magnets.
It is meaningless to claim of another method since both method can not be patented in the first place.
Technical patents for Transrapid lays within the track design, switching mechanism, power management and various other hardware and software to operate the system.
Now if the previous picture is truely what it claims to be, then there is already suspicion of patent infringement in track design which I do not think Transrapid will take lightly.
I guess you did have something that you don't know although you sound like an expert or something.
I am not an expert, but it is easy for me to figure out that the permenant magnetic is only for leviation, but not for propulsion.
Feel free to report to Transrapid.

Last edited by wigo; May 27th, 2007 at 07:18 PM.
wigo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 27th, 2007, 07:22 PM   #347
snow is red
Vicky Pollard lol
 
snow is red's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 5,078
Likes (Received): 119

Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777 View Post
the germans sold the patents for the track already in 2001, when the first line was built.
They were also willing to "give up" the construciton of the vehicle itself and the interior and let this be done by chinses firms.
( a joint venture partner that builds the cabin)
What they were never willing to give up was the core technology of the levitation system.

You could compare it to Boeing (USA) and Rolls Royce (GB) One makes the planes, the other one the engines.

In this case, China would have made about 90% and Germany 10%.
But that was not enought for the chinese side.....

Well, we`ll see what the future will bring..
oh i thought the maglev trains in shanghai was made entirely using German technology according to Chinese newsagency. So the chinese side did take part in the shanghai maglev ??

The chinese tech is still being developed, it is not even tested yet whereas the German tech is fully tested and certified. So it is better to leave most part to German side.

Last edited by snow is red; May 27th, 2007 at 07:29 PM.
snow is red no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 27th, 2007, 07:23 PM   #348
didu
Lord of the Ring
 
didu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 887
Likes (Received): 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777 View Post
What they were never willing to give up was the core technology of the levitation system.
So in other words, the Germans kept the core technology as commercial secrets. Since they already made money by selling the "non-core" technologies to the Chinese, you cannot blame the Chinese for wanting to get the "core" technologies so that the money they spent on the "non-core" technologies are not wasted.
__________________
My photo blog
didu no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 27th, 2007, 07:35 PM   #349
pflo777
BANNED
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,456
Likes (Received): 89

Quote:
So in other words, the Germans kept the core technology as commercial secrets.
What you call commercial secret is Intellectual Property in reality.
Thats how capitalism works.
One guy spends billions to develop something and the other one buys it.
And next time its the other way around.

As it was planned to make a cooperation, the germans sold the core technologies of the guidway and the vehicle to the chinese. But not the levitation system. Why should they?

Germany is not making money by selling core technologies but by selling technological products, whats wrong with that?

Russia sells oil and gas, we sell high tech products like BMW`s and maglevs.

It would have been a wonderfull cooperation, I mentioned the example of boeing and Rolls Royce.
Now this way, it wont be...


From your point of view, how should the bi-national economic relation between germany and china look like in the future, if china wants us to give them all our technolgies, then produce all that stuff by themselfes and not bying any goods from us?
pflo777 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 28th, 2007, 01:50 AM   #350
UD2
A very cool person
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,294
Likes (Received): 31

K guys, again with the off topic.

Plain and simple; China wants the technology, and if the Germans are not willing to give up their secrets then China will not buy their trains.

It's a very striaght forward business deal, let's not make it more than it is.
__________________
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed" - President Eisenhower
UD2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 28th, 2007, 02:13 AM   #351
Prestonian
Registered User
 
Prestonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 937
Likes (Received): 62

It may be a business deal but it is not a fair one and to me China is acting like a bully and a thief. It takes a lot of money to develop these technologies (much of it taxpayer money in Germany) and it is not fair for China to steal it after putting up none of the hard cash and effort. If it doesn't want to pay the fair price for the German technology and intellectual property then it has every right to. What it does not have the right to do is back out of deal in a manner that blackens the name of the German technology (health concerns!) only to then pull an exact copy out of the hat. That is a rude, offensive and arrogant attitude that will lose China friends, suport and respect and will create resentment and enemies.

China has a right to learn and a right to develop things but at the moment it does neither of those things, it imports, it copies, it changes the name and it re-sells (some sensitive transrapid documents were also mysteriously stolen in China). Pretty soon western firms will open their eyes to this and stop the flood of capital that is allowing China to grow.

Growth in the modern capitalist system is based on ideas and knowledge and these must be protected for the process to continue. If you cannot protect your work from prying eyes seeking to steal all the benefits with none of the time, money or effort put in then why put the effort in? Technology and development will stagnate and along with it the economy. IMO China treads very very dangerous ground in disrespecting the intellectual property of western (and other eastern) firms.
Prestonian no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 28th, 2007, 02:57 AM   #352
didu
Lord of the Ring
 
didu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 887
Likes (Received): 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prestonian View Post
It may be a business deal but it is not a fair one and to me China is acting like a bully and a thief.
Not "maybe", it is a business deal. I think Germany is acting like a bully and robber.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prestonian View Post
It takes a lot of money to develop these technologies (much of it taxpayer money in Germany) and it is not fair for China to steal it after putting up none of the hard cash and effort.
It costs a lot of money to build these trains -- Chinese money to be precise. It's not fair for Germany to sell something to China for a price that's not acceptable to the Chinese. The train in SH cost 10 billion yuan to make -- most of that is Chinese money. The train in SH is also the only commercially operating train in the world. The capacity of the train is 440 people, the trip takes 7 minutes with 15 minutes intervals from 7:00 to 21:00, each ticket costs 50 yuan, assuming every train is full and ignoring the inflation, the time it takes for the Chinese to get even with their investment would be:

10 * 1000 * 1000 * 1000 / (365.0 * (14 * 60 /(7+15)) * 50 * 440) = 32.77 years .

In reality, if the trains were half full 30% of the time, it would easily take more than 50 years to break even, and that doesn't even take into account the normal operating cost.

However wonderful your German technology is, this investment is still heavily in favor to you Germans. 10 billion yuan over 32 years can get a lot of research done in China. The Chinese spent the money on your German trains, and your Germans are getting huge free publicity out of it. I don't see

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prestonian View Post
If it doesn't want to pay the fair price for the German technology and intellectual property then it has every right to. What it does not have the right to do is back out of deal in a manner that blackens the name of the German technology (health concerns!) only to then pull an exact copy out of the hat. That is a rude, offensive and arrogant attitude that will lose China friends, suport and respect and will create resentment and enemies.
Gee, if you Germans think you are getting a bad deal, then you should back out the deal gracefully, instead of waging a smear campaign against the Chinese technology. That's a rude, offensive and arrogant attitude that will lose Germans lots of business and respect in China.
__________________
My photo blog
didu no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 28th, 2007, 03:50 AM   #353
Trainman Dave
systems rule!
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 499
Likes (Received): 17

This forum is beginning to detiorate into a useless argument about business practices. I have been participating in technology exchanges with China since the late 1970's. Every piece of technology which I ever brought to China had to be adapted for the conditions in China at the time of the exchange.

I have never seen Japanese, European or American technology applied directly in China without adaption. Major western companies have to do business in China with their eyes open and they should understand that their technology will be adapted.

Technology evolves as it disperses arround the markets. For fixed guide way transportation, the single biggest market for the next 20 years will be China and by 2050 most railways and/or maglev systems will be buying their components from China unless they are being manfactured cheaper in India or Indonesia
__________________
The "rest of the story" is buried in the details
Trainman Dave no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 28th, 2007, 04:13 AM   #354
ningxiard
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 225
Likes (Received): 8

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
Wow ! A hard-core communist fundamentalist.

I have gone through this couple of threads and picked up some posting that the local, municipal and other governmental bodies approved this project with praise.
Here are the links;

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2...ent_868138.htm

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=128

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...1&postcount=74

If they decided to postpone they should have announced the facts not some lame cover up story which doesn't hold water in the first place and smear dirt into Germany to keep their own face.

If their were protest concerning this project and you had concerns, why didn't you voice them when they first announced the project?
I am a hard-core communist fundamentalist? Are you serious?! Your comment and this post proved again you are a simple-minded and ideologically-charged fool! Did I ever defend Chinese government on this mag-lev line? Did I ever say that Chinese government was correct with first proposing and then suspending this project? Of course I didn't! What I am against is you simple-minded attitude. You rushed to a quick and instant conclusion based on extreme limited information, that's what makes you stupid, you still don't get what I saying?

I am not a physicist, my Ph.D. is in molecular biology. I don't have the authority to judge if this proposed new line is safe or not in terms of the radiation. That's not the main point of my previous post either. What I was talking about is, because the previous line runs across sparsely-populated suburb, while the proposed new-line runs aross neighborhood with very very high population density, the reaction from the local rsidents are totally different; particularly for those people living in Minhang district where the new line will run across, there have been huge number of complaints from them to the local government. Call them bad-informed stupid mass if the radiation shouldn't be a concern at all, or blame the government for not giving them enough education on this project. Whatever the problem is, the reality is lots of the local residents are resentful to this new line, and based on the information I know, it's one of the driving force, if not the decisive one behind the suspension of this project.

"smear dirt into Germany to keep their own face"? From I read on the Chinese media (which is the original source of all those crappy second-handed information from the AP or whateve), no one ever blamed Germany for the safety concern with radiation, and nobody said that's the only reason why the project was suspended. I'll say that again, you started all you ranting and fantasy based on a ten-line story from the crappy information souce of the AP, that makes you a fool. I was teaching you to look at things from multiple perspective and try to get more information from different souces before you make judgement, and you instantly put a laughable title like "hard-core communist fundamentalist" on me, that makes you even more foolish!

My main point in the previous post and also this one is not about the radiation safety or the transfer of technology, it's about the complicated situation behind the whole story. I have no idea why some people, like Tri-ring and pflo777, could have such pre-set and simple mind. Don't you still understand that there are lots of inside politics and power struggle behind the suspension? One of the stories I heard is that we got a new party secretary back in Shanghai after the previous one was sacked for corrpution just a while ago, he wants to establish his authority by targeting on this Shanghai-Hangzhou mag-lev line, which has been considered to be a white-elephant project by lots of people in China. Is that everything? We'll probably never know. That's sad, but that's the situatin in today's Chinese politics.

"If their were protest concerning this project and you had concerns, why didn't you voice them when they first announced the project?" I am not sure if you were referring to me or the people back in Shanghai. If it's me, OK, as I said before, I didn't make any conclusion on the safety issue at all. I don't live in China right now, and the neighborhood my family live in is pretty far away from both the present and the proposed mag-lev line, so why should I protest against them when I have no definitve answer about the saftey issue? Go home and get a life, Tri-ring!
ningxiard no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 28th, 2007, 04:55 AM   #355
wigo
BANNED
 
wigo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Xiaoshan, Zhejiang 浙江萧山
Posts: 1,274
Likes (Received): 3

I don't think there is any hard proof of stealing, perticularly no accusation from any reliable source, such as Transrapid itself. Otherwise, China would have not negociated with Germany if the core technology had been obtained already.

I won't deny that the body of Tongji test vehicle is similar to Transrapid (I honestly don't know). But as pflo777 pointed out, there are some patents sold by German firm to China already. So the issue is what is the mechanics of Tongji test vehicle instead of its appereance. Some jets of Boeing are similar to some of Airbus; there are also a lot of cars of different brands are similar. Does it matter? The answer is no.

The issue is simple, the deal has not been made yet. And now, China does not want to go ahead. Unless someone is sure about China having core technology inappropiately, please shut up.

Last edited by wigo; May 28th, 2007 at 05:03 AM.
wigo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 28th, 2007, 11:09 AM   #356
chewys
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 56
Likes (Received): 2

It is obvious to me that the Shanghai-Hangzhou maglev is economically not feasible. A high speed train is much best better solution. It cost less than half of maglev train line. The 10 minutes difference in travelling time to Hangzhou will not make much of a difference. Infact ticket prices is more important for commuters. Also, it could use existing train line, and precious land reserved for maglev can thus be used for building more apartments etc.


I say good riddance. China should have done it earlier (i.e stop this silly maglev nonsense) and not wait until the central government got rid of Chen Lianyu.
chewys no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 28th, 2007, 11:35 AM   #357
pflo777
BANNED
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,456
Likes (Received): 89

Quote:
It's not fair for Germany to sell something to China for a price that's not acceptable to the Chinese.
no one forces you to buy our stuff.

If you cant afford it. let it be. Or work harder, so that one day, youll be albe to afford it.

I cant afford a Maybach either.

That doesnt give me the right to steal the technology and build one by myself.



Quote:
But as pflo777 pointed out, there are some patents sold by German firm to China already
Those were the patents for the production of the guidway.
It was intended, that the Shanghai-Hanghzhou Deal consists the patents of the vehicle, excluding the ones for the levitation system.
Thats why I am so surprised, that just after the deal was cancelled, a vehicle appears that looks like right out of the kassel Transrapid factrory in Kassel

Can we please have some more pics and information about that chinese TR-Clone? Maybe that would bring some light in the discussion and end all that speculation, maybe its all just a big misunderstanding....
pflo777 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 28th, 2007, 12:40 PM   #358
chewys
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 56
Likes (Received): 2

Quote:
Here's a picture of another Maglev train, only this time made by Changchun Passanger Train Works. Two end cars have been manufactured so far and both are under testing in Shanghai's TongJing University.
I can't seem to find any details about Maglev train being tested at Tongjing university.
I know that a Chinese university is developing a low-medium speed maglev train, but is much unlike the one shown in the photo.

UD2 , are you sure that about this and that you have not misled us and making a German angry.
chewys no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 28th, 2007, 01:44 PM   #359
didu
Lord of the Ring
 
didu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 887
Likes (Received): 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777 View Post
no one forces you to buy our stuff.

If you cant afford it. let it be. Or work harder, so that one day, youll be albe to afford it.

I cant afford a Maybach either.

That doesnt give me the right to steal the technology and build one by myself.
If you don't wanna sell it, leave us alone. No one is forcing you to part with your technology.

Why would I want a Maybach when I don't even need a car, let alone something as overpriced as a maybach? If I had too much money to spare, I'd probably pick a rolls royce over a Maybach. Or maybe I will build my own overpriced car.

That doesn't give you the right to accuse anyone who researches their own technology instead of buying your overpriced technology.
__________________
My photo blog
didu no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 28th, 2007, 01:51 PM   #360
pflo777
BANNED
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,456
Likes (Received): 89

Quote:
That doesn't give you the right to accuse anyone who researches their own technology instead of buying your overpriced techn
german built maglev



chinese "research"



Yes, I can accuse china to steal intellectual property

At least you could have tried to make it look different...
pflo777 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
china, high speed train, rail, tgv

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium