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Old May 28th, 2007, 03:47 PM   #361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by didu View Post
Not "maybe", it is a business deal. I think Germany is acting like a bully and robber.
No, a business deal is where a company makes a product and sells it at a price at which it covers its costs and makes a reasonable profit. You either pay that price or you don't. What you do not do if you have any sort of honour is try to negotiate a better price by threatening to illegally steal the product if you don't get your way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by didu
It costs a lot of money to build these trains -- Chinese money to be precise.
Well, it is usually quite common for the country that has the product running in its country to pay for it. Do you expect germany to pay for maglevs in China? Should I expect China to build trains for me in Britain without me paying for them?

And no, German money built and developed these trains and they have a right to earn that back. Yes it does cost a lot of money to build these trains, it costs Chinese money because they are being built for the Chinese. Perhaps China just can't afford it.

Quote:
It's not fair for Germany to sell something to China for a price that's not acceptable to the Chinese.
It costs what it costs, there is no variable price, Germany is telling you the price so take it or leave it. If you can't afford it then you can't have it thats capitalism - something that China still has much to learn about.

Example, it costs me £200'000 to make a Rolls Royce. People in Africa live on less than a dollar a day, am i expected to sell them at £10 so it is an "acceptable price" for Africa. Get real, maybe in a communist world but not a capitalist one where profit rules!

Quote:
The train in SH cost 10 billion yuan to make -- most of that is Chinese money.
ITS IN SERVICE IN CHINA! SO CHINA PAYS FOR IT!!! - its really quite simple.

Quote:
The train in SH is also the only commercially operating train in the world. The capacity of the train is 440 people, the trip takes 7 minutes with 15 minutes intervals from 7:00 to 21:00, each ticket costs 50 yuan, assuming every train is full and ignoring the inflation, the time it takes for the Chinese to get even with their investment would be:

10 * 1000 * 1000 * 1000 / (365.0 * (14 * 60 /(7+15)) * 50 * 440) = 32.77 years .

In reality, if the trains were half full 30% of the time, it would easily take more than 50 years to break even, and that doesn't even take into account the normal operating cost.
It isn't the fault of the technology or Germany that China built an unprofitable investment, its China's poor commercial judgement. China is trying to run before it can work. It isn't really rich enough for these technologies to sustain themselves without massive government subsidy. Now it seems that having bought the wrong thing the Chinese feel it is acceptable to steal in order to get some of their money back!

Example: I buy a computer from Lenovo, it works perfectly and does everything it said it would except that I now can't afford to keep it because I don't use it as much as i thought. Is it my fault for buying it or the fault of Lenovo? - of course it is my fault Lenovo has done nothing wrong. I still need the money so do I have the right to go and steal another one from the Lenovo shop to get my money back - NO!

Quote:
However wonderful your German technology is, this investment is still heavily in favor to you Germans. 10 billion yuan over 32 years can get a lot of research done in China. The Chinese spent the money on your German trains, and your Germans are getting huge free publicity out of it.
Well first of all i'm not German i'm British.

No the investment isn't heavily in favour of the Germans. What you clearly don't seem to understand about capitalism is that there are 2 side to a deal and both only enter into the deal if both countries benefit. Germany actually settled for a lower price than it wanted because it needs to start paying back the money that it invested in developing the system. It is a private company with shareholders to listen to, it needed to pay them back. The Chinese deal won't have covered a fraction of the development costs and most of the money was spent on stuff used to build the maglev IN CHINA!

Quote:
Gee, if you Germans think you are getting a bad deal, then you should back out the deal gracefully, instead of waging a smear campaign against the Chinese technology. That's a rude, offensive and arrogant attitude that will lose Germans lots of business and respect in China.
Well the technology being smeared is the Transrapid with Chinese media suddenly raising health issues because its government doesn't want to look like it can't afford it.

Germans are only getting a bad deal because the Chinese can't honour an agreement.
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Old May 28th, 2007, 03:53 PM   #362
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I found three more pics on the Tongji University Test -Track.

As it is a public university this test track is not kept secret and you are allowed to get so near that you can make pictures like that:
The guidway is exactly the same hybrid girder that the germans sold the patents for. The support pillars look much better than on the first maglev line in shanghai though....

Maybe someone else finds more pictures, especiialy more recent ones.







Could somebody tell me if that test track is like a big circle, or is it just thought that the vehicles go forward and then backwards again.?

as a comparison:


but as i mentioned, the GUIDWAY came to China on a legal technology transfer, so no problems here.

Last edited by pflo777; May 28th, 2007 at 04:24 PM.
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Old May 28th, 2007, 04:23 PM   #363
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It looks like a big circle to me . Well i am just guessing
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Old May 28th, 2007, 04:24 PM   #364
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Btw mates, if you read the articles i gave you, u can see that the german government already clarified this. And China does invest a lot of money in its maglev tech.
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Old May 28th, 2007, 04:30 PM   #365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prestonian View Post
Well the technology being smeared is the Transrapid with Chinese media suddenly raising health issues because its government doesn't want to look like it can't afford it.

Germans are only getting a bad deal because the Chinese can't honour an agreement.
The technology is being smeared? who smeared it? Chinese media, Chinese government? Did you read the original Chinese new articles about this suspension? I bet you didn't. You probably don't even know a single character of Chinese. I have never seen a single word on Chiese media disparaging the mag-lev technolgy for health and safety concern. As I said in my previous post, it's the local residents complaining very loudly against the project, and again, Chinese media only lists that as one of the multiple causes for this suspesnion.

"Chinese government doesn't want to look like it can't afford it"? Are you kidding me? Who told you that, or you were just indulging your fantasy? From the first day this new line was proposed, or even before the construction of the present one started, the huge cost of building mag-lev lines and its affordability has been a hot topic in China. This time, the Chinese media says explicitly that Chinese government thinks this new line might be too expensive, and again that is just one of the causes for the suspension as far as we get to know from the Chinese media.

Was the official contract signed for building this Shanghai-Hangzhou mag-lev line between Germany and China? I have never heard of it. If it hasn't been signed, how could you say that China is not honoring the agreement? Maybe you were on the spot when they signed a secret contract, so you could make such judgement with so much confidence?
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Old May 28th, 2007, 05:42 PM   #366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prestonian View Post
No, a business deal is where a company makes a product and sells it at a price at which it covers its costs and makes a reasonable profit. You either pay that price or you don't. What you do not do if you have any sort of honour is try to negotiate a better price by threatening to illegally steal the product if you don't get your way.
I don't know how business works in your country, but in the rest of the world, a business consists of at least 1 buyer and 1 seller, and the terms have to be mutually agreeable. The Germans can wish to sell whatever they want at whatever price they set, but the Chinese has to agree to it. It's very dishonorable for the Germans to accuse the Chinese of stealing their technology when the Chinese refuse to pay the extortion demanded by the Germans. It's also very arrogant to think that they are the only ones that can come up with advanced technology, and accuse other people of stealing their technology without even knowing what other people's technology looks like.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Prestonian View Post
Well, it is usually quite common for the country that has the product running in its country to pay for it. Do you expect germany to pay for maglevs in China? Should I expect China to build trains for me in Britain without me paying for them?
Sure, but since the Chinese are paying, they are the boss, and they get whatever the hell they want. If the Germans have a problem with it, they should feel free to take their products else where ... oops, I forgot, no one else could afford it.

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Originally Posted by Prestonian View Post
And no, German money built and developed these trains and they have a right to earn that back. Yes it does cost a lot of money to build these trains, it costs Chinese money because they are being built for the Chinese. Perhaps China just can't afford it.
I'm not sure who cannot afford the maglev, last time I checked, the only commercially operating maglev is in China. Without the Chinese purchase, the German money would've been a waste, I'd have thought that the Germans would appreciate the bone the Chinese threw at them. I guess the saying that "no good deeds go unpunished" is really true here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Prestonian View Post
It costs what it costs, there is no variable price, Germany is telling you the price so take it or leave it. If you can't afford it then you can't have it thats capitalism - something that China still has much to learn about.
I think China has told the Germans to go away and take their technology with them. The Germans are the ones that keep coming back rolling on the ground screaming for the Chinese to buy their technology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prestonian View Post
Example, it costs me £200'000 to make a Rolls Royce. People in Africa live on less than a dollar a day, am i expected to sell them at £10 so it is an "acceptable price" for Africa. Get real, maybe in a communist world but not a capitalist one where profit rules!
Yeah, and how many Rolls Royce do you sell in Africa to the poor people? How many do you sell in the world? Oh, how many maglevs have the Germans sold in the world? Maglevs is a buyer's market, China doesn't need maglev, so it can afford to dictate the terms. Maybe you think the German technology is something that other's cannot do without, but don't expect the Chinese to agree with you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Prestonian View Post
ITS IN SERVICE IN CHINA! SO CHINA PAYS FOR IT!!! - its really quite simple.
China paid for it, therefore China owns it, and China can do whatever it wants with it. It's really quite simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prestonian View Post
It isn't the fault of the technology or Germany that China built an unprofitable investment, its China's poor commercial judgement. China is trying to run before it can work. It isn't really rich enough for these technologies to sustain themselves without massive government subsidy. Now it seems that having bought the wrong thing the Chinese feel it is acceptable to steal in order to get some of their money back!
Actually it is the fault of the German technology -- it's simply too expensive, that's why the Germans haven't been able to sell it to anyone else. China might have made a poor commercial judgment, but hey, they paid for it, and now they are entitled to do whatever they want. Remember, the Germans have no idea how the Chinese technology works, all they or you can do is speculate and bad mouth China. I wonder why they are not gonna get another order from China soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prestonian View Post
Example: I buy a computer from Lenovo, it works perfectly and does everything it said it would except that I now can't afford to keep it because I don't use it as much as i thought. Is it my fault for buying it or the fault of Lenovo? - of course it is my fault Lenovo has done nothing wrong. I still need the money so do I have the right to go and steal another one from the Lenovo shop to get my money back - NO!
Well, I'm sure that Lenovo wouldn't mind if you break their computer -- the one you bought with your own money, into pieces and study every piece and sell each piece to recoup your loss. As far as I know, Chinese engineers haven't gone to Germany and come back with another German train, all your accusations are simply stating that they are looking at they trains that they paid for. Therefore, you "analogy" makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by Prestonian View Post
Well first of all i'm not German i'm British.
Wow, that makes your argument so much more convincing ... not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prestonian View Post
No the investment isn't heavily in favour of the Germans. What you clearly don't seem to understand about capitalism is that there are 2 side to a deal and both only enter into the deal if both countries benefit. Germany actually settled for a lower price than it wanted because it needs to start paying back the money that it invested in developing the system. It is a private company with shareholders to listen to, it needed to pay them back. The Chinese deal won't have covered a fraction of the development costs and most of the money was spent on stuff used to build the maglev IN CHINA!
I don't know the German story, but as far as I'm concerned, maglev is not making money for the Chinese, and for this reason alone I think the Chinese are doing the Germans a favor by giving them a large amount of money and unlimited publicity for their products. What you clearly seem to ignore is the Chinese perspective -- the Chinese spent a huge amount of money, and like any other buyer in the world, they want to get their money's worth.

As far as the cost of developing the magleve trains is concerned, since you blamed the Chinese for making the wrong commercial decision of buying maglev, I'm gonna take a leaf out of your book and blame the Germans for making the wrong commercial decision to develop their trains in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prestonian View Post
Well the technology being smeared is the Transrapid with Chinese media suddenly raising health issues because its government doesn't want to look like it can't afford it.
I think it's just your perception that the Chinese cannot afford it, and unless you work for the Chinese government department that makes the decisions about the maglevs, I'm not going to attach any importance to your opinion. People refuse to spend money for many different reasons, one such reason is that they cannot afford it, another reason is that they think they are not getting their money's worth. I've got enough money to buy a RR, but I won't because I think there's no way that car is worth the money they charge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prestonian View Post
Germans are only getting a bad deal because the Chinese can't honour an agreement.
That's your opinion. I think the Chinese don't want to get a bad deal because the Germans are too greedy.
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Old May 28th, 2007, 05:58 PM   #367
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@Prestonian
Please know what you are talking about before you open your mouth. Who said there is an agreement already? There has not been an official agreement regarding to the Shanghai-Hangzhou Maglev, yet. Clear?

I hate to say this, but you really behave like an idiot.
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Old May 28th, 2007, 06:12 PM   #368
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Wigo
You dont have to call other people idiots, just explain to him, act civilised please.
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Old May 28th, 2007, 07:14 PM   #369
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well, wigo states very clear how he sees the world in his signature....
So it it looks like our big mama and big brother in this thread are already speeding up--uh?

its really ridiculous.

its not enough not to buy our stuff (although we buy yours)
its not enough to deny a cooperation where china has 90% and we have 10%
its not enough to copy our stuff...

no, all the things mentioned before plus insulting us and leaving us like a pice of sh..., thats what china wants to do...

Well, you can do it, yes, like you do right now, hoping that our politicans and industrial leaders keep on believing in the possibilities and chances china offers. (But doesnt do in reality---because in the background of every chance, theres a much bigger trap)

But just take a look at the map: do you really think china is strong enough to have the whole world as its enemy?
The Soviet Union was much bigger, much further developed, much richer...and didnt make with unilateralism....

I wish you good luck, you`ll need it...

Last edited by pflo777; May 28th, 2007 at 07:27 PM.
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Old May 28th, 2007, 07:44 PM   #370
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everyone on this forum just leave. please.

it's pointless to argue.

it's not going to change anything. Life isn't fair, and it never will be. The strongest will always win, get used to it.

If you want your views expressed, go write a book.
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Old May 28th, 2007, 07:47 PM   #371
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well, actually I am the only one (besides UD2) who really puts new informationa and especially pics in this thread....so maybe if some others could join this thread would make sense again...
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Old May 28th, 2007, 08:37 PM   #372
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Okay, let me conclude, someone thinks China is wrong because:
1. China does not want to sign a deal.
2. China is using the patents purchased already.

And therefore, China is like Soviet Union.

Seriously, nowdays it is a common practice to transfer technology when you want to sell something. Just like China's satellite deal with Nigeria, China agrees to transfer the technology and thus wins the bid.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/24/wo...=1&oref=slogin

But, China is not forcing Germany to sign the contract.

The German President just concluded his China visit two days ago, I wonder whether he condemned China for the unwillingness to sign the deal.

Last but not least, anyone wants to condemn Nigeria for wanting to obtain satellite technology through commercial biding.

Last edited by wigo; May 28th, 2007 at 08:55 PM.
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Old May 28th, 2007, 08:47 PM   #373
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pflo777

Why do you have to bring it the USSR ?? Yes there are some chinese nationalists here but they do not represent China as a whole. And we are here just playing a guessing game on China-germany contract, we dont know what they are really about.

In the end of the day, you guys cannot really blame the Chinese posters here, it is you guys first started accusing China of something that you cannot even prove, and cannot even provide any proofs or links to back up those accusations. That is what makes the Chinese posters here angry. If you just spend a littile time reading through all the sources/articles i have provided on the previous page, you will see. it says clearly that the German government already clarified it, but you people are still very paranoid. Please read those articles on page 11, post number 217.

Thank you .

Last edited by snow is red; May 28th, 2007 at 09:08 PM.
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Old May 28th, 2007, 09:34 PM   #374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02tonyl View Post
pflo777

Why do you have to bring it the USSR ?? Yes there are some chinese nationalists here but they do not represent China as a whole. And we are here just playing a guessing game on China-germany contract, we dont know what they are really about.

In the end of the day, you guys cannot really blame the Chinese posters here, it is you guys first started accusing China of something that you cannot even prove, and cannot even provide any proofs or links to back up those accusations. That is what makes the Chinese posters here angry. If you just spend a littile time reading through all the sources/articles i have provided on the previous page, you will see. it says clearly that the German government already clarified it, but you people are still very paranoid. Please read those articles on page 11, post number 217.

Thank you .
You are perfectly right. It's this pflo77 guy who started all the fighting. I posted the original Chinese news article in the other thread of mag-lev line on China sub-forum, and I also made a brief summary in English of the multiple reasons that article listed for the suspension of this project. He read that post and immediately concluded that all those reasons were excuses, the real cause was just the problem with the transfer of technology, and he didn't have any proof to support his accusation! When he made all the allegations that China had been shamelessly stealing German mag-lev technolgy, all he could present to support himself are several random pictures he found on the internet.

Do you think he's a guy who can or even just has the willingness to debate in a logical and reasonable manner, at least in this thread? You are wasting your time to present all those background info for him to read, because he has simply no willingness to budge his pre-set mind on this subject for even just one inch.
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Old May 28th, 2007, 11:21 PM   #375
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I never started any fighting.
Because I am not interested in any kind of trolling around, but about a serious discussion about the maglev system and about how how a cooperation could be good for both sides.

The sources you brought was chinese media reports. Or reports from western media, that was based upon quotations of china media.
As everyone knows, Chinese media is state controlled. Furthermore media is NOT a scietific source.

The easiest way to show that this maglev you clam china has developed by itself is to link public accesseble scientific (!!!) reports

You can have thousands of them about the german maglev, real scientific stuff, diserrtations, habilitations, all in english all of them available for public.
(And all of them intellectel property of the german maglev cooperation btw.)

heres a simple one for the not so clever ones:

http://www.transrapid.de/cgi-tdb/en/...5b3856&a_no=24

and heres the real scientific stuff for the smart guys in english

http://www.maglev2006.de/Topic1.htm
http://www.maglev2006.de/Topic2.htm
http://www.maglev2006.de/Topic3.htm
http://www.maglev2006.de/Topic4.htm
http://www.maglev2006.de/Topic5.htm
http://www.maglev2006.de/Topic6.htm
http://www.maglev2006.de/Topic7.htm

a lot of them are even published from chinese scientist.

more pdfs with scientific material can be found here, but its in german
http://www.transrapidtagung.de/


As science usually is published, either in books or in magazins theres no secret about anything dealing with our maglev. copying it is something completely different.

Now, show me a pdf or give me a link that shows that the chinese maglev has nothing to do with ours.
And I dont mean a link to a chinese state controlled newspaper that cites the secretary of someone who works for someone who might have developed a maglev.

As I said, its not about the guidway, its not about that it uses magnets, its about the very core technology.

Show me, and I`ll shut up.
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Old May 28th, 2007, 11:53 PM   #376
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As you can see pflo, apart from those 3 chinese articles, i also gave you other 2 articles i believe written by western journalists, the top one (sciencedaily is not a chinese newsagency) and the last one (for the last one, if you look at the name of the writer you will see).

Thank you for reading.
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Old May 29th, 2007, 12:14 AM   #377
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the sciencedaily report quotes Xinhua news agency .

hmh. And they quote a member of China's Ministry of Science and Technology.

Thats exactly the kind of source I am not looking for...but nevertheless, thank you .


I quote from one of your sources:
Quote:
A 30-kilometer-long test line will be built before 2010, said a report from the Ministry of Science and Technology.
Thats not the line in Shanghai built with the germans, also not the maglev extensions.

Does anybody know where they are building this one?
they say they want to reach 311 mph there before 2010, usuing chinese tech. So it must be UC now. Could someone post pics ....
Damn, I dont want to discuss, I want pics, just like in all of those skyscraperthreads, thats all...
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Old May 29th, 2007, 12:28 AM   #378
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You're so funny.You don't believe any sources from Chinese media,and you posted some pics from Chinese media and believed in it.If you don't believe in Chinese media, please don't ask constantly who knows who knows,because nobody here knows better than Chinese media.
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Old May 29th, 2007, 12:36 AM   #379
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the three picutres I postet from the guidway are not from chinese media.
The pic of the vehicle UD2 linked in here is from a forum

I dont believe in the media. The media is manipulated and never tells the whole truth.
Thats for chinese media as well as for western media.

Need an example: The germany newspaper "die Welt" (The world) reports, citing a member of the chinese government, that the maglev project is not suspended and that they are still looking for ways to find a solution for its realization

http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/articl...ransrapid.html

funny--mhm

Thats why I am asking here---- not only for media, but also for scientfic links or pdfs.

The only thing thats funny, but its not funny any more, is that not a single pic is provided by you guys. For SWFC everyday, one or two are uploaded....
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Old May 29th, 2007, 12:40 AM   #380
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Sorry pflo, I don't know how to upload images firstly, secondly i don't know any good site to get the photos. I don't know any other photos site apart from this one
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