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Old November 13th, 2010, 02:20 AM   #3801
fragel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Every new news is a new and contradictory plan:



http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-1...ail-plans.html

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90...2/7193403.html


...this last story is actually 2 contradictory dates: "next October" means after 1st of October, while "by the National Day" means before 1st of October, in september.

Which month is planned, then? June 2011, September 2011, October 2011, sometime in 2012?
The 'June 2011' date comes from the optimists. October 2011 sounds more realistic to me, since they have to spend quite some time doing all the testing. If anything, it should open way ahead of the original scheduled open date which is late 2012.

All the speculated open dates were based on how well the construction was going on. Different agencies report on the same line with different sources, some are ridiculous, like yesterday's FOX news said China 'announcing just last week its plan to build an 820-mile high-speed railway from Beijing to Shanghai'.

Seriously, I don't think anyone can come up with a precise open date if the workers are trying to beat the deadline by a large amount of time. I say at this stage if one wants a precise date, then he/she shall not trust all the media reports and wait for official open date from the authorities, which is probably not available till some 10 days before the actual open date.
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Last edited by fragel; November 13th, 2010 at 02:28 AM.
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Old November 13th, 2010, 04:21 AM   #3802
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Basically the tracks are almost completed, just track testing and stations need to be completed (the 2 terminus stations are already complete anyway)
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Old November 13th, 2010, 04:35 AM   #3803
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But Tianjin West is very far from being complete.
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Old November 13th, 2010, 04:39 AM   #3804
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construction site of Shanghai section on the Beijing-Shanghai HSR
pic source: xinhua (taken by Niu Yixin on Nov 10th)



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Old November 13th, 2010, 05:37 AM   #3805
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Originally Posted by fragel View Post
construction site of Shanghai section on the Beijing-Shanghai HSR
pic source: xinhua (taken by Niu Yixin on Nov 10th)



This small picture is one of the best. I loved it, hope to see a larger version. Elevated, electrified tracks, high speed train... it is just awesome.
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Old November 13th, 2010, 09:39 AM   #3806
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fragel View Post

Seriously, I don't think anyone can come up with a precise open date if the workers are trying to beat the deadline by a large amount of time. I say at this stage if one wants a precise date, then he/she shall not trust all the media reports and wait for official open date from the authorities, which is probably not available till some 10 days before the actual open date.
It is 13th of November now, so there is 7 days before 20th of November.

Is Yichang-Enshi-Wanzhou railway on time to open on 20th?
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Old November 13th, 2010, 07:16 PM   #3807
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But Tianjin West is very far from being complete.
They can easily finish it within 7 months, it's the China speed you know (Beijing South looked very incomplete just weeks before it opened), plus not all stations have to be complete by the time the line opens
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Old November 13th, 2010, 07:21 PM   #3808
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless View Post
I'd qualify that with the following statement:

The Tokaido (Tokyo-Osaka) Shinkansen has a huge operating profit and easily repaid its construction costs. There is no dispute about this.

However, most/all of the other Shinkansens have an operating profit, but this is unable to repay the construction costs.

The Shinakansens also promote growth in the rest of the economy, so the net benefit to society may be positive (eg. additional growth and tax revenue), although the railway company itself may run at a loss.
Highways and airports don't repay their operating costs-they are tax payer supported, so the relevant yardstick is whether a transport system covers its operating costs.

JR East's financial statements, page 68 shows a net income of 1.29 billion USD at the end of Mar. 2010.
http://www.jreast.co.jp/e/investor/a...ar_2010_12.pdf

A private urban railway case, Keihin Kyuko, which serves the Tokyo/Yokohama area as well as Haneda AP, net income of 72 million USD in 2009.
http://www.keikyu.co.jp/worldwide/financial.html

Last edited by k.k.jetcar; November 13th, 2010 at 07:30 PM.
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Old November 13th, 2010, 07:27 PM   #3809
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China's high-speed train project was first planned in 1992 and was officially launched in 2004. The project adheres to independent innovation and has made significant achievements. Part of the design has been transferred to the United States.
I wasn't aware of this example of Chinese technical largesse. Where (or what) is this in the United States specifically?
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Old November 13th, 2010, 11:11 PM   #3810
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post
Highways and airports don't repay their operating costs-they are tax payer supported, so the relevant yardstick is whether a transport system covers its operating costs.

JR East's financial statements, page 68 shows a net income of 1.29 billion USD at the end of Mar. 2010.
http://www.jreast.co.jp/e/investor/a...ar_2010_12.pdf

A private urban railway case, Keihin Kyuko, which serves the Tokyo/Yokohama area as well as Haneda AP, net income of 72 million USD in 2009.
http://www.keikyu.co.jp/worldwide/financial.html
Wow... (toll) highways and airports can't even meet their operating costs in Japan???

In China:
1. the railways always post an operating profit, but generally not enough to repay construction costs
2. the 65000km network of toll expressways that was built in the past 10years generates enough profits to repay the construction debts. That's why the network expanded so fast.
3. the airports also generate large operating profits, which do cover construction debts.

References below (even if the title says India)
http://www.trend-news.com/default.asp?newsid=7857
http://www.thomaswhite.com/explore-t...pressways.aspx
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3509828/Fi...ndian-Railways


NB. It is very rare in China/India/UK etc for an infrastructure project to be UNABLE to meet its operating costs. This is because viable projects normally require a large operating profit to repay the huge debts that arise during construction.
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Old November 14th, 2010, 02:47 PM   #3811
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Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post
I wasn't aware of this example of Chinese technical largesse. Where (or what) is this in the United States specifically?
IIRC, GE has signed an agreement with the Chinese government to gain access to Chinese high speed rail technology.
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Old November 14th, 2010, 03:02 PM   #3812
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[QUOTE=fragel;67033731]construction site of Shanghai section on the Beijing-Shanghai HSR
pic source: xinhua (taken by Niu Yixin on Nov 10th)



This is the one biggest loop of a high speed line, it will link the different lie of China high speed railway.
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Old November 14th, 2010, 06:24 PM   #3813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post
I wasn't aware of this example of Chinese technical largesse. Where (or what) is this in the United States specifically?
China Is Eager to Bring High-Speed Rail Expertise to the U.S.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/08/bu...al/08rail.html

BEIJING — Nearly 150 years after American railroads brought in thousands of Chinese laborers to build rail lines across the West, China is poised once again to play a role in American rail construction. But this time, it would be an entirely different role: supplying the technology, equipment and engineers to build high-speed rail lines.

The Chinese government has signed cooperation agreements with the State of California and General Electric to help build such lines. The agreements, both of which are preliminary, show China’s desire to become a big exporter and licensor of bullet trains traveling 215 miles an hour, an environmentally friendly technology in which China has raced past the United States in the last few years.

“We are the most advanced in many fields, and we are willing to share with the United States,” Zheng Jian, the chief planner and director of high-speed rail at China’s railway ministry, said.

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger of California has closely followed progress in the discussions with China and hopes to come here later this year for talks with rail ministry officials, said David Crane, the governor’s special adviser for jobs and economic growth, and a board member of the California High Speed Rail Authority.

China is offering not just to build a railroad in California but also to help finance its construction, and Chinese officials have already been shuttling between Beijing and Sacramento to make presentations, Mr. Crane said in a telephone interview.

China is not the only country interested in selling high-speed rail equipment to the United States. Japan, Germany, South Korea, Spain, France and Italy have also approached California’s High Speed Rail Authority.

The agency has made no decisions on whose technology to choose. But Mr. Crane said that there were no apparent weaknesses in the Chinese offer, and that Governor Schwarzenegger particularly wanted to visit China this year for high-speed rail discussions.

Even if an agreement is reached for China to build and help bankroll a high-speed rail system in California, considerable obstacles would remain.

China’s rail ministry would face independent labor unions and democratically elected politicians, neither of which it has to deal with at home. The United States also has labor and immigration laws stricter than those in China.

In a nearly two-hour interview at the rail ministry’s monolithic headquarters here, Mr. Zheng said repeatedly that any Chinese bid would comply with all American laws and regulations.

China’s rail ministry has an international reputation for speed and low costs, and is opening 1,200 miles of high-speed rail routes this year alone. China is moving rapidly to connect almost all of its own provincial capitals with bullet trains.

But while the ministry has brought costs down through enormous economies of scale, “buy American” pressures could make it hard for China to export the necessary equipment to the United States.

The railways ministry has concluded a framework agreement to license its technology to G.E., which is a world leader in diesel locomotives but has little experience with the electric locomotives needed for high speeds.

According to G.E., the agreement calls for at least 80 percent of the components of any locomotives and system control gear to come from American suppliers, and labor-intensive final assembly would be done in the United States for the American market. China would license its technology and supply engineers as well as up to 20 percent of the components.

State-owned Chinese equipment manufacturers initially licensed many of their designs over the last decade from Japan, Germany and France. While Chinese companies have gone on to make many changes and innovations, Japanese executives in particular have grumbled that Chinese technology resembles theirs, raising the possibility of legal challenges if any patents have been violated.

All of the technology would be Chinese, Mr. Zheng said.

China has already begun building high-speed rail routes in Turkey, Venezuela and Saudi Arabia. It is looking for opportunities in seven other countries, notably a route sought by the Brazilian government between São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro, Mr. Zheng said.

International rail experts say that China has mastered the art of building high-speed rail lines quickly and inexpensively.

“These guys are engineering driven — they know how to build fast, build cheaply and do a good job,” said John Scales, the lead transport specialist in the Beijing office of the World Bank.

The California rail authority plans to spend $43 billion to build a 465-mile route from San Francisco to Los Angeles and on to Anaheim that is supposed to open in 2020. The authority was awarded $2.25 billion in January in federal economic stimulus money to work on the project.

The authority’s plans call for $10 billion to $12 billion in private financing. Mr. Crane said China could provide much of that, with federal, state and local jurisdictions providing the rest. Mr. Zheng declined to discuss financial details.

China’s mostly state-controlled banks had few losses during the global financial crisis and are awash with cash now because of tight regulation and a fast-growing economy. The Chinese government is also becoming disenchanted with bonds and looking to diversify its $2.4 trillion in foreign reserves by investing in areas like natural resources and overseas rail projects.

“They’ve got a lot of capital, and they’re willing to provide a lot of capital” for a California high-speed rail system, Mr. Crane said.

Later plans call for the California line to be extended to Sacramento and San Diego, while a private consortium hopes to build a separate route from Los Angeles to Las Vegas.

Toyota is shutting a big assembly plant in Fremont, Calif., that it once operated as a joint venture with General Motors, and one idea under discussion is converting the factory to the assembly of high-speed rail equipment, said Mr. Crane, who is also a member of the state’s Economic Development Commission.

Rail parts from China would then come through the nearby port of Oakland, in place of auto parts from Japan.

“High-speed rail requires a lot of high technology — we would send many high-end engineers and high-end technicians” to California, Mr. Zheng said.

G.E. estimates that the United States will spend $13 billion in the next five years on high-speed rail routes. China, with a much more ambitious infrastructure program, will spend $300 billion in the next three years on overall expansion of its rail routes, mainly high-speed routes, according to G.E.

China’s long-term vision calls for high-speed rail routes linking Shanghai to Singapore and New Delhi by way of Myanmar, and someday connecting Beijing and Shanghai to Moscow to the northwest and through Tehran to Prague and Berlin, according to a map that Mr. Zheng keeps on a bookshelf behind his desk. He cautioned that there were no plans to start construction yet outside China.

A high-speed rail link for passengers from Beijing to Shanghai will be finished by the end of 2011 or early 2012, and cut the journey to four hours, from 10 hours now, Mr. Zheng said.

New York to Atlanta or Chicago is a similar distance, and takes 18 to 19 hours on Amtrak, which must share tracks with 12,000-ton freight trains and many commuter trains.

For the American market, Mr. Zheng said, “we can provide whatever services are needed.”
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Old November 14th, 2010, 07:29 PM   #3814
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A high-speed rail link for passengers from Beijing to Shanghai will be finished by the end of 2011 or early 2012, and cut the journey to four hours, from 10 hours now, Mr. Zheng said.

New York to Atlanta or Chicago is a similar distance, and takes 18 to 19 hours on Amtrak, which must share tracks with 12,000-ton freight trains and many commuter trains.
Mr Zheng obviously lives in a plastic bubble in the land of pink elephants

To even compare railway construction in China where de government simply bulldoze anything in the path of the railway and force evacuate anyone that resist or simply make them disappear

In the US of A, just the cost of expropriating the land needed between New York and Chicago would deem the project uneconomical, then of cause there are the 15 to 20 years of legal battles the state need to win even before starting any construction.

And forget about building hundreds of kilometers of ugly concrete bridges that destroy the landscape, environmentalists would go postal over such a project. Not to mention the noise pollution laws which would kill any effort to run the trains at speeds high enough to complete the trip in 4 hour.

Last edited by gincan; November 14th, 2010 at 07:35 PM.
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Old November 14th, 2010, 08:28 PM   #3815
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Mr Zheng obviously lives in a plastic bubble in the land of pink elephants

To even compare railway construction in China where de government simply bulldoze anything in the path of the railway and force evacuate anyone that resist or simply make them disappear

In the US of A, just the cost of expropriating the land needed between New York and Chicago would deem the project uneconomical, then of cause there are the 15 to 20 years of legal battles the state need to win even before starting any construction.

And forget about building hundreds of kilometers of ugly concrete bridges that destroy the landscape, environmentalists would go postal over such a project. Not to mention the noise pollution laws which would kill any effort to run the trains at speeds high enough to complete the trip in 4 hour.

senseless crap again and again. unless you live in another parallel universe, I can't imagine any normal person would say anything like your last paragraph...

if you don't know anything about China (apparently you don't and you are only imagining what it is like) and only have the ability to repeat what the biased media fed you, stop polluting this thread.
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Last edited by fragel; November 14th, 2010 at 08:41 PM.
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Old November 14th, 2010, 09:14 PM   #3816
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Another media pearl

An emerging but fragile China
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...111206538.html
Quote:
Yet word is emerging here that China's Ministry of Railways is rethinking its ambitious plans to expand the high-speed-rail system after experts found that it is dreadfully expensive and already deep in debt and cannot be efficiently connected to the rest of the country's transportation infrastructure.
Whut?
I guess the allegations that journalists may simply make anything up and then write it as a "news" may be not that far from truth. It is really amazing how such utter nonsense could ever make it to a "respectable" newspaper. Sounds very tabloid.
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Old November 14th, 2010, 09:16 PM   #3817
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senseless crap again and again. unless you live in another parallel universe, I can't imagine any normal person would say anything like your last paragraph...

if you don't know anything about China (apparently you don't and you are only imagining what it is like) and only have the ability to repeat what the biased media fed you, stop polluting this thread.
Several lengthy sections of such a Chicago-NYC line could use the medians of interstate highways, especially on the western half, for ROW.

I would anticipate the I-5 median providing a major portion of the ROW for a Los Angeles-San Francisco line, too (along with tunneling under the 'Grapevine' and the hills in the Hollister area).

Mike
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Old November 14th, 2010, 09:21 PM   #3818
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Mr Zheng obviously lives in a plastic bubble in the land of pink elephants

To even compare railway construction in China where de government simply bulldoze anything in the path of the railway and force evacuate anyone that resist or simply make them disappear

In the US of A, just the cost of expropriating the land needed between New York and Chicago would deem the project uneconomical, then of cause there are the 15 to 20 years of legal battles the state need to win even before starting any construction.

And forget about building hundreds of kilometers of ugly concrete bridges that destroy the landscape, environmentalists would go postal over such a project. Not to mention the noise pollution laws which would kill any effort to run the trains at speeds high enough to complete the trip in 4 hour.
Who was living in a plastic bubble?
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Old November 14th, 2010, 09:39 PM   #3819
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Several lengthy sections of such a Chicago-NYC line could use the medians of interstate highways, especially on the western half, for ROW.

I would anticipate the I-5 median providing a major portion of the ROW for a Los Angeles-San Francisco line, too (along with tunneling under the 'Grapevine' and the hills in the Hollister area).

Mike
I figure you are replying to gincan's post.

The interstate highway network does provide a nice grid even for HSR. However, if US is to develop HSR, it should focus on the California line, Florida line and the northeastern corridor. Midwest(especially the Great Lakes area) is not really the best place to think about HSR, since Ohio and Wisconsin do not even want the federal HSR money. Although I enjoyed Amtrak's service from Detroit to Chicago (slow, unpunctual but still quite comfortable) and would love to see a HSR connecting these two cities, I think it is too premature to discuss the realization of such line. Anyway, I think this is well discussed in US HSR threads, and we probably should not spend too much time in this thread, as it was proven a troll magnet before.
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Old November 14th, 2010, 11:06 PM   #3820
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Several lengthy sections of such a Chicago-NYC line could use the medians of interstate highways, especially on the western half, for ROW.

I would anticipate the I-5 median providing a major portion of the ROW for a Los Angeles-San Francisco line, too (along with tunneling under the 'Grapevine' and the hills in the Hollister area).

Mike
Impossible, the interstates are not designed with enough curve radius for the HSR lines to run along them, you need 5 miles curv radius for 250 miles/hour trains.
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