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Old November 22nd, 2010, 06:34 PM   #3921
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GO CHINA !!!

Yesterday, we rode the high speed rail from Hangzhou to Shanghai. It took 45 minutes to go about 110 miles, and the ride was smoother than any US form of transportation. At dinner last night, the Chinese, justifiably proud, asked what we had thought.


"I want it!" said one of my companions.
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 08:28 PM   #3922
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Plus, express trains on freight lines clog them up. Slow, stopping passenger trains that move at the pace of freight trains or let them pass at passenger stations are much easier to fit on old lines.
I think the main question is how smaller locations should be served. The current setup where the PDL has 33 stations means that the smaller stations only see irregular services. On the entire line there are already 3 - 5 trains between Shanghai and Nanjing every hour per direction, yet the smaller stations like Shanghai West and Suzhou Industrial Park only sees 3 - 5 trains per day. I can't see how the situation can be ractified without either skipping city centre stations or making dozens of journeys slower. If the current setup continues then those new stations are clearly a waste of money.

In my opinion it would make more sense to have the smaller stations served by 160km/h commuter trains which can be easily mixed with freight trains on the classic line, which is 4-tracked throughout. Then you have a commuter train every 20 minutes (I'd actually expect every 10 minutes between Suzhou and Shanghai) that allows you to connect easily to the intercity express services that are guaranteed to be regular and fast.
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 08:29 PM   #3923
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Originally Posted by stoneybee View Post
Just keep in mind the following two things when you think everything that MOR does is wrong, and dream up your fantasy plan.

1) Hongqiao was never a green field site. It used to be Shanghai's main airport and everyone loves that location versus the new Pudong airport.
You need to keep in mind that building an HSR station joined with an expanded airport at Hongqiao is not just what MOR wants. It is also - probably mainly - because Shanghai government wanted. You need to look at the bigger picture here.

Shanghai government is building a large Economic Development District at around Hongqiao transportation hub, with huge business, commercial and residential projects planned. In time, the area around Hongqiao will be transformed into another CBD, serving the western suburb, as well as the Yangtze River Delta.

It'll be easy for the people from around Shanghai to ride HSR and take the flights at Hongqiao Airport. Hongqiao will also be a very convenience drop off point for people from other parts of the countries as well as business/leisure travelers from the Pacific Rim regions (e.g., Tokyo, Seoul, Hong Kong, Taipei). In other words, Hongqiao hub serves the greater Shanghai area or Yangtze River area. It represents an economic development strategy with more domestic focus, different than that focusing on Pudong area.

What NCT has in mind is for the convenience for the current city center Shanghai residents, which is NOT the only goal of Shanghai government's development of Hongqiao transportation hub and Hongqiao Economic Development District. What he forgets is that, as large as Shanghai is, it is a growing and expanding city, unlike London or other European cities where the cities are mature and commercial and residential areas more or less established. As such, any public service works are designed to serve the _existing_ population patterns.

NCT has lived in Europe for too long and has forgotten that for all the development in China, barely under 50% of the population are urban and the urban landscape will be quite different 20 years from today.

Last edited by highway35; November 22nd, 2010 at 11:27 PM.
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 10:01 PM   #3924
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
I think the main question is how smaller locations should be served. The current setup where the PDL has 33 stations means that the smaller stations only see irregular services. On the entire line there are already 3 - 5 trains between Shanghai and Nanjing every hour per direction, yet the smaller stations like Shanghai West and Suzhou Industrial Park only sees 3 - 5 trains per day. I can't see how the situation can be ractified without either skipping city centre stations or making dozens of journeys slower. If the current setup continues then those new stations are clearly a waste of money.
Look at Tokaido Shinkansen. From Tokyo towards Nagoya, I count 11 trains between 8:00 and 8:56. Including 7 Nozomis (4 terminate in Osaka, 3 continue to Hakata), 2 Hikaris (1 to Osaka, 1 to Okayama) and 2 Kodamas (1 to Nagoya, 1 to Osaka).

Could China add all-stop services (in addition to the present 3...5 daily) to the smaller stations on Shanghai-Nanjing high speed railways as additional trains arrive (and as the need for express trains decreases when Beijing-Shanghai enters service)?
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 10:22 PM   #3925
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highway35 View Post
... barely under 50% of the population are urban and the urban landscape will be quite different 20 years from today.

Yes, this is the main concern for any infrastructure project in China.
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 11:24 PM   #3926
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenlion View Post
by the begining of 2011, China will have 20 HSR lines in service

Chinese HSR lines Open timeline (2003-2010)
ICL- Intercity line
PDL- Passenger Designated Line
PFL- Mixed passenger & freight HSR line

Code:
Order Line              Open Date      Length    Designed  Fastest Average
                                                  Speed    Operating Speed

18. Yiwan PFL            2010/11/20    377 km    200km/h     125.67km/h (expect)
It is 22nd of November. Has Yichang-Wanzhou railway opened, or been delayed?
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Old November 23rd, 2010, 12:02 AM   #3927
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highway35 View Post
You need to keep in mind that building an HSR station joined with an expanded airport at Hongqiao is not just what MOR wants. It is also - probably mainly - because Shanghai government wanted. You need to look at the bigger picture here.

Shanghai government is building a large Economic Development District at around Hongqiao transportation hub, with huge business, commercial and residential projects planned. In time, the area around Hongqiao will be transformed into another CBD, serving the western suburb, as well as the Yangtze River Delta.

It'll be easy for the people from around Shanghai to ride HSR and take the flights at Hongqiao Airport. Hongqiao will also be a very convenience drop off point for people from other parts of the countries as well as business/leisure travelers from the Pacific Rim regions (e.g., Tokyo, Seoul, Hong Kong, Taipei). In other words, Hongqiao hub serves the greater Shanghai area or Yangtze River area. It represents an economic development strategy with more domestic focus, different than that focusing on Pudong area.

What NCT has in mind is for the convenience for the current city center Shanghai residents, which is NOT the only goal of Shanghai government's development of Hongqiao transportation hub and Hongqiao Economic Development District. What he forgets is that, as large as Shanghai is, it is a growing and expanding city, unlike London or other European cities where the cities are mature and commercial and residential areas more or less established. As such, any public service works are designed to serve the _existing_ population patterns.

NCT has lived in Europe for too long and has forgotten that for all the development in China, barely under 50% of the population are urban and the urban landscape will be quite different 20 years from today.
It's easy to let soundbites get in the way of facts.

While Shanghai still has a lot of momentum to grow and develop it is already a maturing city, with the commercial and residential areas no less established than the likes of London. The city core has reached its optimum size and it'd be irresponsible for the people of Shanghai to expand the core any further. Any further urbanisation within Shanghai's boundary should take the form of growing satellite towns.

While infrastructure projects should certainly take into account future developments, the roles played by the existing urban area and existing commercial centre will by no means diminish, however much proponents of new developments would want you to believe otherwise. There have been a number of new developments beyond the old city centre (Huangpu, Luwan and Jing'an), but none of them have caused the centre of mass to shift, or weaken the relative position of the old city centre, quite the contrary. In any case, provisions for the existing population should NOT be compromised for some political project that is the greater Hongqiao CBD. Natural demand for Shanghai Station will only grow, and that's why it is absolutely silly to engineer a shift to Hongqiao that will not happen.

Hongqiao Hub's design screams suburban - huge, inward looking, impermeable network of concrete highways, unreachable on foot and bus routes are unviable. For all the hype surrounding Hongqiao CBD, I'd be amazed if it transpired to anything much more than an out-of-town industrial estate.

It is certainly true that only 50% of Chinese population is urban, but Shanghai is beginning to be overpopulated. It is ridiculous to suggest all the people should be concentrated in only the large cities. There are plenty of scope for secondary cities between Shanghai and Nanjing to grow, as well as those along the G204, Changshu, Zhangjiagang and Jiangyin, which are yet to undergo significant suburbanisation. And this is only the Yangtze Delta.
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Old November 23rd, 2010, 12:29 AM   #3928
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Look at Tokaido Shinkansen. From Tokyo towards Nagoya, I count 11 trains between 8:00 and 8:56. Including 7 Nozomis (4 terminate in Osaka, 3 continue to Hakata), 2 Hikaris (1 to Osaka, 1 to Okayama) and 2 Kodamas (1 to Nagoya, 1 to Osaka).

Could China add all-stop services (in addition to the present 3...5 daily) to the smaller stations on Shanghai-Nanjing high speed railways as additional trains arrive (and as the need for express trains decreases when Beijing-Shanghai enters service)?
It'll be more than likely the Shanghai - Beijing HSL will see upwards of 4 tph, but this line will be next to useless for traffic within the Shanghai - Nanjing section. The Shanghai - Nanjing PDL has the overwhelming advantage of sensibly located stations in the main cities of Suzhou, Wuxi, Changzhou, Danyang, Zhenjiang and Nanjing, which the Shanghai - Beijing line just connot subtitute with their completely remote parkway stations.

I won't at all be surprised if stations like Wuxi East and Suzhou North only sees a dozen trains a day when the Shanghai - Beijing HSL opens, given what's happened to the secondary stations along the Shanghai - Nanjing PDL. What's worse is that there's no option to take the frequent service into Nanjing on the regional PDL and change onto a fast service further north, as the Beijing - Shanghai line uses Nanjing South and there's no connection between the two lines.
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Old November 23rd, 2010, 01:53 AM   #3929
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norge78 View Post
Yesterday, we rode the high speed rail from Hangzhou to Shanghai. It took 45 minutes to go about 110 miles, and the ride was smoother than any US form of transportation. At dinner last night, the Chinese, justifiably proud, asked what we had thought.


"I want it!" said one of my companions.
Why did you just copy this statement from the article in the Atlantic?
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/...ed-rail/66863/

If your not going to make a personal statement and just copy someone elses at least post up the link to the article.
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Old November 23rd, 2010, 04:49 AM   #3930
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I just read it!
It's really the worst and most pathetic analisys I've ever read.

It was written by "Megan McArdle is the business and economics editor for The Atlantic. She has worked at three start-ups, a consulting firm, an investment bank, a disaster recovery firm at Ground Zero, and the Economist."

Her IQ must be under 70.
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Old November 23rd, 2010, 05:03 AM   #3931
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
It's easy to let soundbites get in the way of facts.

While Shanghai still has a lot of momentum to grow and develop it is already a maturing city, with the commercial and residential areas no less established than the likes of London. The city core has reached its optimum size and it'd be irresponsible for the people of Shanghai to expand the core any further. Any further urbanisation within Shanghai's boundary should take the form of growing satellite towns.

While infrastructure projects should certainly take into account future developments, the roles played by the existing urban area and existing commercial centre will by no means diminish, however much proponents of new developments would want you to believe otherwise. There have been a number of new developments beyond the old city centre (Huangpu, Luwan and Jing'an), but none of them have caused the centre of mass to shift, or weaken the relative position of the old city centre, quite the contrary. In any case, provisions for the existing population should NOT be compromised for some political project that is the greater Hongqiao CBD. Natural demand for Shanghai Station will only grow, and that's why it is absolutely silly to engineer a shift to Hongqiao that will not happen.

Hongqiao Hub's design screams suburban - huge, inward looking, impermeable network of concrete highways, unreachable on foot and bus routes are unviable. For all the hype surrounding Hongqiao CBD, I'd be amazed if it transpired to anything much more than an out-of-town industrial estate.

It is certainly true that only 50% of Chinese population is urban, but Shanghai is beginning to be overpopulated. It is ridiculous to suggest all the people should be concentrated in only the large cities. There are plenty of scope for secondary cities between Shanghai and Nanjing to grow, as well as those along the G204, Changshu, Zhangjiagang and Jiangyin, which are yet to undergo significant suburbanisation. And this is only the Yangtze Delta.

Central business district of a city absolutely shifts when a city develop. Especially if you look developing countries, their cities' old centers are just a mere collection of couple of stores on single street. Most of the cities I visited, old city centers are now tourist attraction points with narrow roads, and low rises. All the business activities that once the whole city had can be happening in a single skyscraper now. Many cities can be examples of this. London, Paris, Istanbul... In all of them old business districts are more like tourist attractions and have many retail stores with a limited number of offices. The business has been moved to new high rise areas.

We have an ideological difference in city development In my opinion you are trying put almost everything in one city center which is just impossible. It will have tremendous limitations. And when we are thinking about China, there is a huge potential for cities to develop both horizontally and vertically, even for Shanghai and it is happening.

This discussion will not end
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Old November 23rd, 2010, 05:09 AM   #3932
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Megan McArdle, libertarian shill. If you pay her enough money, she'll talk about the health benefits of cigarettes. Unfortunately there are a LOT of Megan McArdles out there. They pervade the neoliberal market democracy followers of Thatcher/Reagan/etc. To them, it's about gutting the social welfare system because the poor deserve to be poor, all the while protecting and expanding the interests of the rich, because the rich deserve to be rich.

Unfortunately there are still many boneheads who actually take neoliberalism seriously. Some of these are cold war dinosaurs, some of them have been reading too much Ayn Rand. Some of them conflate their tribal loyalties to the following of a bunch of con men. Plenty of people have been victimized by the likes of Megan McArdle throughout Latin America and Eastern Europe. Ask them if libertarianism makes sense.

Deep down, Megan McArdle doesn't care one way or another about railroads or transportation. She's simply stating what her masters want her to say. Strange how 'environmental' concerns are a legitimate obstacle to railways, yet runaway sprawl and highways don't elicit such concern.

and here's this nugget at the end of the Megan McArdle's article:

presented by ExxonMobil

If you're on an urban planning forum, talking about trains, and you don't see some conflict of interest in the article...
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Old November 23rd, 2010, 05:28 AM   #3933
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Crucial time for China's high-speed rail network
23 November 2010
South China Morning Post

The final bolts fastening the high-speed rail tracks linking Shanghai and Beijing were tightened last week, presenting the mouth-watering prospect of efficient, high-speed travel between the cities, accelerating what is already rapid growth.

By the time this particular route is fully operational at the end of next year, 80 million passengers are expected to travel on it annually, while the 24 stations along the route will effectively link half the country's population. If trains are able to run as quickly as advertised, travel times between the capital and the nation's largest city will be more than halved to under five hours.

Such attractive figures have caught the world's attention. Not only will the impressive new infrastructure bring about a new era of land travel within the mainland, but also showcase China as a leading innovator. If all these benefits genuinely bear fruit, the estimated 3.7 trillion yuan (HK$4.24 trillion) to build the world's largest high-speed rail network will look a wise investment. Furthermore, these ambitions are expanding beyond China's borders. China and Thailand are reportedly in talks over a high-speed railway that will pass from southern China, through Laos to Thailand.

But with such a colossal amount of money involved it is imperative that the expected results are returned through strategic planning and co-ordination. Already the National Audit Office has identified 520 million yuan worth of irregular receipts regarding the construction of the 220.9 billion yuan Beijing-Shanghai line and handed the details to prosecutors. Throwing money into researching the latest technologies and putting fast trains on the right tracks towards the right destinations will not automatically guarantee benefits for the public.

A case in point was the recent opening of the Shanghai to Nanjing high-speed railway. Despite the hype and the much vaunted top speeds of 350km/h, most of the trains running the route only shortened travel times by one minute despite ticket prices having increased 57 per cent. Only two trains a day, one in each direction, travelled at speeds greater than the original trains, due to scheduling conflicts and the complicated routes. Ordinary travellers found it difficult to see how all that money had improved their lifestyles.

Furthermore, investigations into the two most memorable rail incidents in recent years have identified human error as the cause. In April, 2008 a Beijing to Qingdao train which had exceeded the speed limit derailed, killing 72 people and injuring more than 400. The accident took place at 4.40am and the speeding train initially went unnoticed. When it was noticed and warnings were sent out, those warnings were not heeded. Earlier that year 2.5 million people were left stranded around Guangzhou train station, causing mayhem and a public safety crisis. The chaos had been sparked by power failures, which stopped services for 10 days just as workers in the country were preparing to return to their hometowns for the Lunar New Year. While the ageing infrastructure was undoubtedly an issue, poor co-ordination between the relevant transport departments was also a key factor in the failure to avert the chaos.

The Shanghai to Nanjing route is now increasing in popularity but only after it was suspended for rescheduling and a new ticket-pricing strategy. Question marks over the Shanghai-Beijing route will remain unless the authorities can show that the money spent on fast trains is matched by investment in rail planning and training of personnel to ensure the well-being of domestic travellers is improved.
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Old November 23rd, 2010, 05:38 AM   #3934
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Yeah, that "article" reads like a blog post. I swear I've made long, usually tldr, posts on this forum that are similar.

For instance the statement "tearing out highways" uh, what?

She doesn't even cover what cons are usually known even by HSR advocates. I was hoping for some interesting, insightful stuff like maybe the issue of marginal travel time savings vs cost for some "high speed" 110 mph(for only half the route) type line with station stops over being able to drive 70 mph along a more direct route. Or actual per-passenger energy efficiency of a heavy train running half full vs some future electric car. Things that have bugged me for a while, and also issues being brought up in this thread.

Last edited by zaphod; November 23rd, 2010 at 06:01 AM.
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Old November 23rd, 2010, 06:11 AM   #3935
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Nov 18 Tianjin West Railway Station main steel structure completed

The main steel structure east-west span is 114m, south-north span 318.65m, weighing 18,000 tons.











from 新浪网, sina.com source
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Old November 23rd, 2010, 06:17 AM   #3936
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Quote:
Originally Posted by particlez View Post

presented by ExxonMobil

If you're on an urban planning forum, talking about trains, and you don't see some conflict of interest in the article...
this is really ironic and pathetic. not the content of her article, but the ExxonMobil thing. sadly such things are now prevalent in academia too.
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Old November 23rd, 2010, 01:23 PM   #3937
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Crucial time for China's high-speed rail network
23 November 2010
South China Morning Post

The Shanghai to Nanjing route is now increasing in popularity but only after it was suspended for rescheduling and a new ticket-pricing strategy.
Ticket sales were suspended, indefinitely; services were not.

When Shanghai-Hangzhou HSR was opened last month, had MOR learned in respect to schedules and pricing?
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Old November 23rd, 2010, 02:20 PM   #3938
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Central business district of a city absolutely shifts when a city develop. Especially if you look developing countries, their cities' old centers are just a mere collection of couple of stores on single street. Most of the cities I visited, old city centers are now tourist attraction points with narrow roads, and low rises. All the business activities that once the whole city had can be happening in a single skyscraper now. Many cities can be examples of this. London, Paris, Istanbul... In all of them old business districts are more like tourist attractions and have many retail stores with a limited number of offices. The business has been moved to new high rise areas.

We have an ideological difference in city development In my opinion you are trying put almost everything in one city center which is just impossible. It will have tremendous limitations. And when we are thinking about China, there is a huge potential for cities to develop both horizontally and vertically, even for Shanghai and it is happening.

This discussion will not end
With due respect, I don't think you understand Shanghai very well. You seem to think that tourism and businesses don't mix, and you couldn't be more wrong. While it is true many touristy places in China are devoid of originical characters, London and Paris are examples of people living and working in culture, and that's what make those cities great.

The areas around the bund are still the most sought after locations for high-end businesses and government locations. Within the Bund - River Suzhou - Xizang Road - Yan'an road rectangle, as old Shikumens are demolished, high-rise grade A offices, hotels and high-end apartments are popping up everywhere. Far from being an romantic and touristy place, this old core is already highly developed in terms of modern business activities. Bund Centre, Shimao Plaza, Tomorrow Square, Raffles City ... are but a few examples. If you skim through this yet incomplete thread you'll find Shanghai's old core is growing faster than anywhere else.

The old core is growing, as you say, vertically and horizontally, i.e. its spreading outwards. The bund is growing both ways as Shiliupu and North Bund are being developed; the whole section between Middle Huaihai Road and Xintiandi is completely mixed use and highly business orientated (HK Plaza, PwC offices etc); the Nanjing Road axis is fattening and the Jing'an Temple area is balooning (Huamin Tower, Wheelock Square and Gerry Centre Phase Two). Detached from the old core you have Lujiazui and the Century Avenue axis stretching all the way to the Science Museum, which are all growing, and most ironically the area round Shanghai Station is undergoing a massive amount of transformation. Yes the city is growing, but very much in a concentric mannor - there is no shift! Businesses are moving IN, not out! As you can see a lot of the development are simply on the wrong side of Hongqiao, and Shanghai Station is in a perfect location to serve all of these business districts. There is absolutely no sense whatsoever in removing trains from Shanghai Station.

It's not so much I want everything to be in the centre, but rather most activities are happening in the centre. People don't always realise how much the centre is being transformed because there is no hype around such developments - they happen organically. Only politicians and certain developers with vested interests want meddle with natural development patterns and make a song and dance about a shift from old to new, because they can then be seen doing something and make a fast buck from developing greenfield sites and leave the problems of vacancy and waste to the society at large. Cities grow in this concentric way for most obvious reasons - economies of scale - businesses and services feed on each other and take advantage of the invisible networks built up through decades and centuries, and a concentric pattern is the best pattern for public transport provision because of its simplicity. Those who believe it's easier to all uproot and settle into a new place are like those hardcore old Keynesian economists who think it's cheaper to alter production than reprint price tags.
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Old November 23rd, 2010, 02:24 PM   #3939
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Ticket sales were suspended, indefinitely; services were not.

When Shanghai-Hangzhou HSR was opened last month, had MOR learned in respect to schedules and pricing?
Not at all, is the unfortunate answer. D trains were removed for G trains and this designation change means an automatic 50% price hike. The link from the Shanghai - Hangzhou PDL to the old classic approach to Shanghai South Station isn't yet complete so they had the cheek to reroute all G and remaining D services to Hongqiao. Shanghai South, also a shiny new station is now sitting half empty with just a couple of green- and orange-skins.
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Old November 23rd, 2010, 02:54 PM   #3940
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Originally Posted by Nozumi 300 View Post
I think we should get back on topic now.
Are there other maintance/research trains (ie Dr. Yellow) other than the CRH5?
CRH5-000A (CIT0), CRH2-010A,CRH2-061C,CRH2-150C
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