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Old November 26th, 2010, 08:51 PM   #4021
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Originally Posted by cbz View Post
funny how i draw opposite conclusion - Chinese HSR system is not only built for local/regional daily commuters hopping on and off trains and rushing to office in the early morning like Japan, it should focus more on serving long distance commuters, if you check schedules of shanghai station, most of destinations are outside nearby provinces. Even with HSR backbone in place, most of journeys starting from Shanghai will be more than couple of hours, does extra 20 minutes on subway really matter to those passengers. So capacity+distance+efficiency please
While you are correct that proportionally commuter travel will be lower than in Japan or Europe, but in absolute numbers this part of the demand will still be huge. In catering for longer-distance travellers you can't forget the commuters either.

It's not so much the extra 20 minutes, but the sheer volume of passengers who will travel in a highly linear fashion between town and station, and the two Metro lines just won't cope on top of serving urban commuters. Extra capacity into town is desperately needed, and what better way than extending the whole line further in? The whole point of HSR is that more destinations are reachable in under 4 hours like Hefei and Jinan, so the prospects for day office trips are wider. It'd be such a shame if a whole extra hour is added on the Metros, then you might as well book an overnight sleeper which would save more time and forget HSR has ever existed.

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Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
Poffff.... When we boiled it down, your argument is Shanghai would have been OK with upgrading current stations it has. My argument is needed capacity and probable future needs is much more demanding that only upgrading current stations won't be enough. The rationale is huge potential for future development (you didnt buy it that is why the numbers, pictures etc.....). Demand is only going to increase in China hence in the biggest city of China, Shanghai, too. Upgrading current station will be only temporary and short sighted solution.

New stations serving for 4+4 high speed railroads is part of a master plan creating a new mode of transport. It will induce future development, cope with huge demand and will have opportunity for even further upgrades.

Specifically for Hongqiao station; the idea of merging an airport to high speed network is simply brilliant. This should have more examples.

And dont make love :p
I said city centre resources should be fully utilised rather than abandoned, and pointed out many potential possibilities for more central Shanghai options. My Shanghai expansion + Old North Station + North Bund Station suggestion actually adds more platforms to the Shanghai - Nanjing corridor than Hongqiao has managed, and would serve current and future travel needs much better than shoving everything to Hongqiao. The idea of Hongqiao airport having a railway connection is good, but the demand for airport transfer onto railways is far lower than the demand from all the business destricts in the city centre, hence the need for better balancing. Hongqiao becoming the MAIN railway station is like 烧香的赶走和尚. Hey the professor from Tongji University seems to agree with me.
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Old November 26th, 2010, 08:54 PM   #4022
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Originally Posted by cbz View Post
When people talking about how efficient western countries' railway station handle large traffic volume, but i believe that none of western countries rail systems or transport systems will experience extremely surging traffic load like china during chunyun, Oct, May long holiday and summer time, when daily rail passenger ridership will jump from 3 millions to 5 millions, or even more than 8 millions (this year Oct 1st).
Perhaps this is true for Western countries, but Japan manages to do just fine with railway surges during peak periods including the New Year's. Peak-direction travel on just the Tōkaidō Shinkansen on the peak days of the 2009-2010 New Year's period was 233,000 pax in the down direction (2009.12.31) and 269,000 pax in the up direction (2010.01.03) (source). And this is actually down from previous years. For reference, the average daily ridership (across both directions) for FY2009 is 378,000 pax (source), which translates to average 189,000 pax per direction per day. So the "surge" is equivalent to as much as a 42% increase in daily unidirectional ridership demand, on top of a system that is already pretty much at capacity under regular service. JR adds a few more trains each hour and calls it good... No need for large dead spaces outside the station to contain passengers, even during peak travel days.

The peak travel is a factor, but is not unique to China and is still solvable without the need for the large plazas... The "brute-force" solution of designing everything for the peak works, but as China's railway network expands, more efficient ticketing systems are implemented, and the scheduling improves, these large spaces both inside and outside the station will eventually not be needed and sit empty. From a regular passengers' perspective outside of the peak travel periods, having to walk 10-15 minutes just to get in and out of the station and then another 10-15 minutes (if not more) through the plaza and to any connecting modes (for a parkway station) or to nearby buildings (for an urban station) is hardly a convenience.
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Old November 26th, 2010, 09:18 PM   #4023
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Originally Posted by quashlo View Post
The peak travel is a factor, but is not unique to China and is still solvable without the need for the large plazas... The "brute-force" solution of designing everything for the peak works, but as China's railway network expands, more efficient ticketing systems are implemented, and the scheduling improves, these large spaces both inside and outside the station will eventually not be needed and sit empty. From a regular passengers' perspective outside of the peak travel periods, having to walk 10-15 minutes just to get in and out of the station and then another 10-15 minutes (if not more) through the plaza and to any connecting modes (for a parkway station) or to nearby buildings (for an urban station) is hardly a convenience.
Can the space under the plazas be employed for stations of connecting subways?
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Old November 26th, 2010, 10:46 PM   #4024
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Originally Posted by quashlo View Post
From a regular passengers' perspective outside of the peak travel periods, having to walk 10-15 minutes just to get in and out of the station and then another 10-15 minutes (if not more) through the plaza and to any connecting modes (for a parkway station) or to nearby buildings (for an urban station) is hardly a convenience.
if you are referring to hong qiao,10-15 minutes walking is an exaggeration, for departure, taxi can pretty much drops you off at entrance of departure hall, maximum walking distance from subway station to either end of departure entrance should be less than 200m. For 10 minutes, you can walk from west side of railway station to east side for T2 (less than 1000m)
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Old November 26th, 2010, 11:24 PM   #4025
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It's not so much the extra 20 minutes, but the sheer volume of passengers who will travel in a highly linear fashion between town and station, and the two Metro lines just won't cope on top of serving urban commuters. Extra capacity into town is desperately needed, and what better way than extending the whole line further in?
not sure what you mean by linear fashion between town and station. You know existing line 2 is already connected to line 4,3,11,7 before reach Nanjing west road. Most of passengers from hong qiao will be distributed to other lines before reach overcrowd city center. With future metro expansion, hong qiao hub will be connected directly or indirectly to line 10,1,5,9,17,13,20,22,15,16,12,14 (wow! great job, shanghai) before reach down town.

let's look at at Hong qiao railway station/airport design daily capacity: 160000+80000=240000, assuming all of passengers will use metro system even though there will be quite amount of them will use bus,taxi or just exchange between trains and airlines, i don't think there is any issue for existing metro line to handle such flow. Keep in mind that some lines of shanghai metro are handling nearly 50000 section passenger flow per hour.

Last edited by cbz; November 26th, 2010 at 11:46 PM.
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Old November 26th, 2010, 11:56 PM   #4026
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Originally Posted by cbz View Post
not sure what you mean by linear fashion between town and station. You know existing line 2 is already connected to line 4,3,11,7 before reach Nanjing west road. Most of passengers from hong qiao will be distributed to other lines before reach overcrowd city center. With future metro expansion, hong qiao hub will be connected directly or indirectly to line 10,1,5,9,17,13,20,22,15,16,12,14 (wow! great job, shanghai) before reach down town.

let's look at at Hong qiao railway station/airport design daily capacity: 160000+80000=240000, assuming all of passengers will use metro system even though there will be quite amount of them will use bus,taxi or just exchange between trains and airlines, i don't think there is any issue for existing metro line to handle such flow. Keep in mind that some lines of shanghai metro are handling nearly 50000 section passenger flow per hour.
On the line 2, the first significant interchange opportunity is Zhongshan Park, by which point the train would be full of commuters from Qingpu, Xinjin and Tianshan. This means train passegers would have to share capacity with almost the ENTIRE commuter pool of the western section of line 2. Some will change onto 3/4 for Shanghai Station and Shanghai Stadium areas, and some will get onto line 11 for Xujiahui. But the majority of business travellers will continue to at least People's Square, so have to put up with everyone chucked off lines 11 and 7 from Jiangsu Road. Trust me I've travelled as a commuter on line 2 between Zhongshan Park and Lujiazui for 5 weeks this summer and horrible would be an understatement to describe the experience.

Line 10 goes through the more cultural and leisury areas so probably wouldn't help line 2 that much.
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Old November 27th, 2010, 12:23 AM   #4027
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Originally Posted by NCT View Post
I said city centre resources should be fully utilised rather than abandoned, and pointed out many potential possibilities for more central Shanghai options. My Shanghai expansion + Old North Station + North Bund Station suggestion actually adds more platforms to the Shanghai - Nanjing corridor than Hongqiao has managed,
it is kind of overkill since you already have shanghai west and shanghai for nanjing corridor. if you want well balance, you might consider converting north freight station to passenger station.
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Old November 27th, 2010, 01:22 PM   #4028
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it is kind of overkill since you already have shanghai west and shanghai for nanjing corridor. if you want well balance, you might consider converting north freight station to passenger station.
To be honest Foxmulder would be right in saying Shanghai Station alone wouldn't be enough, as you'd have to accommodate regional intercity, national intercity and commuter trains. The new Shanghai - Nantong railway would probably need to share terminating capacity with the Nanjing corridor too.

Shanghai West is next to useless as it's a through station so doesn't contribute to terminating capacity. The Old Shanghai North Station is currently used as sidings, which IMO is slightly silly for such a prime location. You can rebuild a passenger station on this readily available site, and North Bund Station isn't an engineering pie in the sky either (though probably a political one). Then it is of course sensible to have a Hongqiao Station (smaller) to serve local needs.

There ought to be a new line going West through Qingpu and Huzhou, to take away the Wuhan services from the busy Nanjing corridor and relieve associated terminating capacity. There is still a site to the West of Zhongshan Park Metro Station that's been sitting empty for years.
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Old November 27th, 2010, 02:58 PM   #4029
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Shanghai West is next to useless as it's a through station so doesn't contribute to terminating capacity.
Yes, but it could handle some crowds. Are there any subways getting built to Shanghai West?
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Old November 27th, 2010, 06:35 PM   #4030
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With all due respect, you're not reading the discussion carefully. You sounded to me like one of those clueless foreigners with preconceived notions coming to China. All your senseless accusations about China are cliche and are pretty irrelevant to the discussions here.

Let me boil down the arguments here to you... China is "unique:" the largest, the fastest, the most dynamic, the most ambitious, the capability to plan and execute on large scale and with a vision.
This is what passes for argument for the defenders of the way China is urbanizing? I haven't lived in China (only in Japan, Korea, and Vietnam), but I've visited countless times. Going again next week, to Qingdao. Ad personam arguments never really work.

Ah, Japan was also "unique," 20-30 years ago. And how did they turn out?

The only unique thing about China is the way that it will become a prisoner of its own flawed infrastructure. The first time I noticed the flaws was in 2005, I was visiting Nanning and we had to get on a bus to Guilin. And the bus station, brand spanking new, was some 20km away from the city!
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Old November 27th, 2010, 07:21 PM   #4031
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Ah, Japan was also "unique," 20-30 years ago. And how did they turn out?
These days, all China skeptics were hoping/wishing is that somehow China turns into another Japan. A lot of Chinese would be ecstatic if China reached Japan's per capita income. Or do you mean China is going to stuck at current level of development? Don't count on it. Ain't going to happen.

This is not the right forum to engage in such a debate. Suffice it to say that most people who had such a fantasy just could not face/accept reality.

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The only unique thing about China is the way that it will become a prisoner of its own flawed infrastructure. The first time I noticed the flaws was in 2005, I was visiting Nanning and we had to get on a bus to Guilin. And the bus station, brand spanking new, was some 20km away from the city!
Like I said before, Chinese planner are struggling with a lot of trade-offs when dealing with a very dynamic, fast-changing super-society like China. They do make mistakes, sometimes pretty stupid ones, but more often than not, foreigners who have had no clue about the challenges that China faces are all too quick to jump into criticism and accusation based on bias and preconceived notions - haven't we seen enough of them?!
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Old November 27th, 2010, 08:05 PM   #4032
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Is there no way to keep these "dabates" elsewhere and concentrate on the news of Chinese HSR? Or maybe the moderators could extract a new thread where all those wishing to "dabate" further could do it there among themselves without ruining this thread? All trolls, "experts" and the likes could also be sent there to stage their fights while this thread could stay for news and pictures only. I (and I'm sure most of those interested in China's HSR) find it really annoying to track the information through all those endless posts "explaining" how "bad" or how "great" is the x and y...

Are there no news on new lines opening?
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Old November 27th, 2010, 08:31 PM   #4033
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Are there no news on new lines opening?
My question too.

Does Yichang use an old railway station or a new built station?
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Old November 28th, 2010, 02:33 PM   #4034
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http://www.whatsonxiamen.com/news15990.html

80% of Xiamen-Shenzhen High-speed Railway construction finished
Updated: 27 Nov 2010Share this news?...Click box

The closely watched Xiamen-Shenzhen High Speed Railway has completed 80% of its total construction and is expected to be put into full operation by the end of 2011, reports Shenzhen Economic Daily.

The project is under intense construction at present.

Confronted with the fact that there is no direct train from Shenzhen to Xiamen, passengers need to make stopovers at Dongguan, Huizhou or Longchuan in Guangdong province. The whole journey will take 15 hours. It also takes 11 hours to drive from Shenzhen to Xiamen.

However, only 3 hours will be needed for the journey from Shenzhen to Xiamen upon the completion of the Xiamen-Shenzhen High Speed Railway as the average speed for the Xiamen-Shenzhen High-speed Railway will be 250 kilometers per hour with reserved conditions for 300 kilometers per hour.

As soon as the 502-kilometer Xiamen-Shenzhen High-speed Railway is completed, the main coastal cities in the southeast of China will be linked together and form a powerful transportation line, giving convenience and benefit for the Yangtze River Delta Economic Zone and Pearl River Delta Economic Zone and bringing development opportunities for the real estate industry and tourism industry along these lines.
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Old November 28th, 2010, 03:02 PM   #4035
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The closely watched Xiamen-Shenzhen High Speed Railway has completed 80% of its total construction and is expected to be put into full operation by the end of 2011, reports Shenzhen Economic Daily.
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However, only 3 hours will be needed for the journey from Shenzhen to Xiamen upon the completion of the Xiamen-Shenzhen High Speed Railway as the average speed for the Xiamen-Shenzhen High-speed Railway will be 250 kilometers per hour with reserved conditions for 300 kilometers per hour.
What is the trip time now on the high speed railway Xiamen-Ningbo? When Shenzhen-Xiamen and Ningbo-Hangzhou shall be open, what shall be the trip time Shenzhen-Xiamen-Shanghai?
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Old November 28th, 2010, 08:36 PM   #4036
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How many direct railway lines are there between Russia and China? Manzhouli, Suifenhe, Hunchun... any others?


How much freight shall travel between China and Russia via the railways of Mongolia and Kazakhstan?
The other obvious question is 'What are the latest plans regarding the break in rail standards between the two countries?". As they stand now, Russian and Chinese railroads are 100% incompatible with each other.

Mike
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Old November 29th, 2010, 03:32 AM   #4037
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Alstom's new contract with CNR Changchun and Yongji Electric, November 7, 2010
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Old November 29th, 2010, 09:25 PM   #4038
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Track-laying on Shijiazhuang–Wuhan HSR started

http://www.gov.cn/jrzg/2010-11/29/content_1755671.htm

Track-laying on Shijiazhuang–Wuhan High-Speed Rail start on November 29, 2010.

Shijiazhuang–Wuhan
- Length: 840 km
- Maximum operating speed: 350 km/h
- Part of 2300-km long Beijing–Hong Kong HSR corridor
- Due to open in 2012
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Old November 29th, 2010, 11:53 PM   #4039
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HSR lines that planned to open before 2012
Code:
22. Shiwu PDL         2011/December      840 km      350km/h
Quote:
Originally Posted by yaohua2000
Shijiazhuang–Wuhan
- Length: 840 km
- Maximum operating speed: 350 km/h
- Part of 2300-km long Beijing–Hong Kong HSR corridor
- Due to open in 2012
Which year and month shall it open?
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Old November 30th, 2010, 12:03 AM   #4040
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Sources say that MOR has confirmed the introduction of new EMU services for Chengdu, to and from Beijing and Shanghai in 2011. The new services are expected use 16-car CRH2E stock, formed by 13 sleeper cars, 2 ordinary cars and 1 dining car. There will be 1 pair of journeys per day for Chengdu - Beijing and Chengdu - Shanghai. Exact stopping patterns and timings are still to be determined.

Source in Chinese for those interested.
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