daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old January 13th, 2011, 06:31 PM   #4261
Nordschleife
Registered User
 
Nordschleife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Shanghai/New York
Posts: 1,053
Likes (Received): 713

Any detail of CRH380BL's new 487.3kph speed record?
Nordschleife no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old January 13th, 2011, 07:47 PM   #4262
NCT
Not Cwite There
 
NCT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Shanghai, London, Nottingham
Posts: 6,211
Likes (Received): 1777

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbz View Post
[B]I saw people here often blame ticketing system when they saw china's railway stations jammed by people and suggest better online ticketing system will be the solution. Do we really think MOR that stupid and not think of any cost-effective way? We need to know that ticket offices at railway stations in china are mainly for sale current day's ticket. Non-current day tickets (conventional train) are available at other ticket booths. Xian has more than 30 ticket offices with 84 windows distributed all over the city, not mention hot phone line and countless travel agents can be utilized for ticket purchase. Still, there are tons of unplanned travelers swarm to stations at peak seaon, any railway station in china has to reserve quite amount of tickets for this, internet or online ticketing system does not solve the problem. how many of you buy ticket via internet for today's flight. The problem here is overall capacity of a station, not the issue of one or two factors like ticketing system

Also, keep in mind that most major railway stations in china have different buildings for ticket sale and departure/arrival. Overcrowded queues at entrance of waiting hall have nothing to do with ticketing system. why not build bigger station to make those people's life less miserable, brute force way does work in this case.
No-one is denying capacity is the major issue, but it's compounded by the lack of flexibility in the ticketing and boarding processes. During normal seasons where supply is adequate a combination of internet ticketing, flexible journey options and straight-to-the-platform boarding will kill any crowds instantly.

The extreme crowds during the New Year season are because of too many people chasing too few trains chasing too few platforms, so there are cases of people standing on one leg for 56 hours. In such circumstances of severe demand and supply imbalance a big proportion of tickets are reserved at the station, and people get to the front of the queue hours before departure time to get some space in the waiting room and train. And if the ticket you've bought is for a journey in 10 hours time, with your luggage you spend your 10 hours at the station.

To solve the problems you get rid of the imbalance. Of course you increase the number of platforms to accommodate extra trains and extra passengers, but that can be done without huge concourses and the 30 platforms don't have to be spread out linearly.

In the long term when supply matches demand, there won't be the need for reserving today's tickets as the market will clear at acceptable prices and quantities. There won't be any crowds as flexible ticketing and journeys as well as straight-to-the-platform boarding are implemented. In the short term, well overcrowding is still happening at the old stations and the new stations are not helping. So the huge spaces ARE unnecessary and unreasonable, as beyond a point big does equal inconvenience.
__________________
My Shanghai photos - Nanjing Road, People's Square, The Bund, Xintiandi and more!
NCT no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 13th, 2011, 08:03 PM   #4263
BarbaricManchurian
来了就是深圳人
 
BarbaricManchurian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Worcester
Posts: 5,505
Likes (Received): 6894

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Thanks for the advice... you know I'll have 2 days or less to stay arund in one location (primarily Shenzhen and Guangzhou) which means if I don't get the ticket to Wuhan and back then my dream of riding world's fastest train will be gone forever (or at least until I'll ride Beijing-Shanghai which is not to happen for at least next 2 years or so), so I can't afford anything but getting the ticked on the day I'll need it. Also considering that this is one of the major purposes of my trip then the only option is to get that ticket and ideally for the fastest service that day even if I have to pay extra for 1st class.

Also what about short-distance trains? I would assume the best way of getting from Shenzhen to Guangzhou is the D train (which, if I am correct, is CRH1) departing every 10 or so minutes? Is it easy to just get to the station and get the ticket to the nearest departing train on that day or is it not as easy as I assume? The demand should be high in such a busy and densely populated area.
First class almost never sells out, you can almost assuredly get a 1st class seat (or even VIP, which is more expensive) for the next train, even if its leaving in less than 5 minutes. Short distance is similar to long distance, again, first class is unlikely to sell out, so you don't have to wait long. The most you'd have to wait is 2 hours, and that's if you buy second class.
BarbaricManchurian no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 13th, 2011, 09:30 PM   #4264
cbz
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 86
Likes (Received): 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
No-one is denying capacity is the major issue, but it's compounded by the lack of flexibility in the ticketing and boarding processes. During normal seasons where supply is adequate a combination of internet ticketing, flexible journey options and straight-to-the-platform boarding will kill any crowds instantly.
Theoretically, this can be achieved . But like other people here did before, i need to remind you that THIS IS IN CHINA

There are several travel peak seasons in china that last for months not few days or few weeks. ChunYun itself is nearly two month long.

Majority of travelers at peak season are not well-informed and experienced . Quite amount of migrant workers probably are first-time travelers in holiday season. Your "straight-to-the-platform boarding" is not going to work.

When i worked in NYC couple years ago, i had no issue of switching trains and hopping on subway, i never spent time in grand central for more than few minutes. I knew all the platform, schedule information and where is the shortcut to the nearest entrance/exit of subway and never stopped to look for direction sign. Last time when i visited there, it took me at least 10-15 minutes longer to figure out everything. Only few people like me standing in narrow passage looking for direction will slow down whole flow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
In the long term when supply matches demand, there won't be the need for reserving today's tickets as the market will clear at acceptable prices and quantities. There won't be any crowds as flexible ticketing and journeys as well as straight-to-the-platform boarding are implemented. In the short term, well overcrowding is still happening at the old stations and the new stations are not helping. So the huge spaces ARE unnecessary and unreasonable, as beyond a point big does equal inconvenience.

Yes, we will not need gigantic railway station if all our travelers are like New Yorkers, even we don't need to upgrade railway station too much since main concourse of grand central terminal with 1/4-1/5 Xian new station size is handling as much as 3-4 times passenger volume (0.7-1 million daily) of Xian new station designed volume (0.2-0.3 million daily). But we need it now and probably in another 10-15 years.

Last edited by cbz; January 13th, 2011 at 09:50 PM.
cbz no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 13th, 2011, 11:01 PM   #4265
NCT
Not Cwite There
 
NCT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Shanghai, London, Nottingham
Posts: 6,211
Likes (Received): 1777

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbz View Post
Yes, we will not need gigantic railway station if all our travelers are like New Yorkers, even we don't need to upgrade railway station too much since main concourse of grand central terminal with 1/4-1/5 Xian new station size is handling as much as 3-4 times passenger volume (0.7-1 million daily) of Xian new station designed volume (0.2-0.3 million daily). But we need it now and probably in another 10-15 years.
Thanks for that piece of stats really appreciate it.

I say let's not underestimate our fellow Chinese travellers. Migrant workers do the same things every year, so first-timers will definitely be limited. Straight-onto-the-platform can't be more difficult than the current system, as currently you have read the signs to find the correct waiting room anyway.

Even if we need huge space for another 15 years does it really need to take the form of jolly expensive engineering? I suspect little red envelopes.
__________________
My Shanghai photos - Nanjing Road, People's Square, The Bund, Xintiandi and more!
NCT no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 13th, 2011, 11:14 PM   #4266
foxmulder
Registered User
 
foxmulder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,135
Likes (Received): 382

All these new high speed train stations are required and as a bonus great looking . If NYC can build a new Grand central, it would have been much larger! NCT has a fetish for small underground stations, he just hates comfortable, natural lighted, shiny, big ones :p We discussed this 10 times already... but hey this discussion forum, right Although, I prefer pictures over discussion...
foxmulder no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 13th, 2011, 11:43 PM   #4267
NCT
Not Cwite There
 
NCT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Shanghai, London, Nottingham
Posts: 6,211
Likes (Received): 1777

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
All these new high speed train stations are required and as a bonus great looking . If NYC can build a new Grand central, it would have been much larger! NCT has a fetish for small underground stations, he just hates comfortable, natural lighted, shiny, big ones :p We discussed this 10 times already... but hey this discussion forum, right Although, I prefer pictures over discussion...
Who says small stations have to be underground and can't be comfortable and natural lighted?

Keep your toy in the pram.
__________________
My Shanghai photos - Nanjing Road, People's Square, The Bund, Xintiandi and more!
NCT no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 14th, 2011, 12:03 AM   #4268
cbz
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 86
Likes (Received): 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
Thanks for that piece of stats really appreciate it.
I saw it in lease brochure of grant central, guess it is exaggerated

http://www.wjeinc.com/Portfolio/GCT-...re-8-17-07.pdf
cbz no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 14th, 2011, 12:10 AM   #4269
foxmulder
Registered User
 
foxmulder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,135
Likes (Received): 382

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
Who says small stations have to be underground and can't be comfortable and natural lighted?

Keep your toy in the pram.

Generally, in a discussions the side who lack confidence into his argument starts to attack person supporting the opposing idea.

What a great representation! "Keep your toy in the pram." hah??... mature response...

You apparently cannot even digest some humor...Tune it down, I really don't care what you think from this point on.
foxmulder no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 14th, 2011, 03:15 AM   #4270
gdolniak
Mememe...
 
gdolniak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 190
Likes (Received): 29

cdz - thank you for your reply. Exactly as you said T.I.C.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbz View Post
I understand xian new station only serves few CRH services now, but it doesn't rule out that in the near future conventional services could be shifted to new one. Chengdu has a similar new station completed, the plan is to move all the services in old station to new one and re-build old one.
I didn't know about Chengdu. Does it mean that after rebuilding the old train station, the conventional trains will be moved back there? I wonder, if the new CRH train stations in China have infrastructure to handle servicing the conventional trains. Anyone has any tips from other parts of the world, perhaps?

Another question: does the CRH runs on different voltage than the conventional trains, or is it the same?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbz View Post
I saw people here often blame ticketing system when they saw china's railway stations jammed by people and suggest better online ticketing system will be the solution. Do we really think MOR that stupid and not think of any cost-effective way?
Winter of 2008 comes to my mind...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbz View Post
We need to know that ticket offices at railway stations in china are mainly for sale current day's ticket. Non-current day tickets (conventional train) are available at other ticket booths. Xian has more than 30 ticket offices with 84 windows distributed all over the city, not mention hot phone line and countless travel agents can be utilized for ticket purchase. Still, there are tons of unplanned travelers swarm to stations at peak seaon, any railway station in china has to reserve quite amount of tickets for this, internet or online ticketing system does not solve the problem. how many of you buy ticket via internet for today's flight. The problem here is overall capacity of a station, not the issue of one or two factors like ticketing system

Also, keep in mind that most major railway stations in china have different buildings for ticket sale and departure/arrival. Overcrowded queues at entrance of waiting hall have nothing to do with ticketing system. why not build bigger station to make those people's life less miserable, brute force way does work in this case.
Yes, I know about the different places for purchasing the tickets. I know that the crowds outside the station on the pictures are people already with the tickets trying to get it to the waiting halls reserved for their trains. I also know the big problem of fake tickets, black market, etc. Nobody mentioned it yet, but the Chinese Railway is toying around with train tickets having traveler's name and ID number written on the ticket (similar to plane tickets) to prevent some of the above problems.

Traveling by CRH and traveling by conventional train is two different experiences. I just hope that in the future, lessons learned at the CRH trains will be implemented in the long-distance conventional trains (they will be still there). Especially if it comes to ticket selling.

I believe few years ago in China one was unable to buy return plane tickets (as to avoid the above problems). All you could buy is one-way ticket and once at the destination, you buy the return ticket. Now, is now problem. You can buy it everywhere: internet, phone, ticket office, etc., but they also have several airlines not one. Seems like the railway ticket system is still stuck in the past...
gdolniak no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 14th, 2011, 03:56 AM   #4271
cbz
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 86
Likes (Received): 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by gdolniak View Post
Another question: does the CRH runs on different voltage than the conventional trains, or is it the same?
As i know, both are 25kv 50hz.

We should really thank those decision makers for choosing this standard half century ago. so don't underestimate MOR's ability to come up with ticketing system.

http://hi.baidu.com/hgm2000/blog/ite...c082302d5.html

Quote:
曹建猷首先进行了铁道电气化电流、电压制的研究。这是涉及到我国铁道电气化发展方向最关键的技术决策问题。关系到电力机车的型式、供电系统的制式和结构、电气化铁道的运能以及经济效益等一系列重大问题。五十年代,当时电气化铁道线路最长而且有多年运行经验的苏联,采用直流电压制,由铁路沿线的变电所以3千伏的直流电压向电力机车供电。西欧有些国家采用低频(50赫工业频率的三分之一)交流电压制。工频交流电压制(采用交流电力机车,由25千伏的单相工频交流电压供电)只在法国等少数国家作试验性运行。25千伏的单相工频交流电压制,由于电压高,牵引网导线可以较细,牵引变电所之间的距离可以较长,牵引变电所的总数目较少,因而铁道电气化的投资及维护费用较低,而且电力机车的功率可以较大,对提高运输能力更有利。但是,交流电压对沿线的通信的电磁干扰十分严重,这是它的严重缺点,为此,沿线通信线路必须采用电缆或其他抗干扰措施。直流电压制则与此相反。另外,直流电压制在世界上已有多年成功应用的经验,单相工频交流电压制则处于试验阶段。因此,25千伏的单相工频交流电压制和直流电压制孰优孰劣,便成为当时国际上发展铁道电气化的争论焦点。在我国,铁道电气化刚起步,采用什么制式关系到长远发展方向,因此更受到人们极大的关注。曹建猷通过对大量资料的分析研究,并结合我国的特点,认为我国应选择工频交流电压制。在他亲自主持下,又组织专题组,对此课题进行了全面和深入的研究和试验,结合我国情况提出了强有力的论据。1956年,曹建猷在《人民日报》上发表了《我国电气化铁道应采用何种电压制》的文章。在铁道部一些学术论证会上,对当时国内外争论不下的"交流制"和"直流制"提出了自己的论据和建议。这是一项非常重要的研究成果。曹建猷的建议取得国内同行专家的支持和共识,被铁道部采用。经国家正式批准,工频交通电制被定为我国电气化铁道的标准。这使我国电气化铁道从一起步就在世界先进技术水平基础上发展。几十年来国内外的经验都证明,采用这一技术决策是正确的、先进的,能减少能耗和投资,提高运能,已为我国铁路运输创造了巨大的经济及社会效益。这一标准也更适合发展我国高速及重载电力牵引的需要。

Last edited by cbz; January 14th, 2011 at 04:23 AM.
cbz no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 14th, 2011, 04:48 PM   #4272
NCT
Not Cwite There
 
NCT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Shanghai, London, Nottingham
Posts: 6,211
Likes (Received): 1777

Quote:
Originally Posted by gdolniak View Post
I didn't know about Chengdu. Does it mean that after rebuilding the old train station, the conventional trains will be moved back there? I wonder, if the new CRH train stations in China have infrastructure to handle servicing the conventional trains. Anyone has any tips from other parts of the world, perhaps?

Another question: does the CRH runs on different voltage than the conventional trains, or is it the same?
I'm pretty sure the two types of trains are technologically compatible, and theoretically there should be no reason why conventional trains can't access the new stations.

Usually conventional trains only use the old stations as to not lower the 'prestige' of the shiny new ones, but some CRH trains find their way back to the old ones due to market forces.

How thinkgs exactly pan out depend on the city. All Wuhan - Guangzhou CRH trains use the new Guangzhou South and the old Guangzhou station is exclusively used by conventional trains. When Shanghai Hongqiao opened the majority of CRH trains used Hongqiao, but after huge demand imbalances and passenger dissatisfaction a lot of trains were moved back to the old Shanghai Station.

My favourate case is Tianjin, which built a temporary station when the central one was expanded, and the Beijing - Tianjin PDL uses central Tianjin as the terminus. Even as the new Tianjin West is being built, jugding by the layout of tracks some HSTs using the new Beijing - Tianjin line will still use Tianjin central.

Quote:
Yes, I know about the different places for purchasing the tickets. I know that the crowds outside the station on the pictures are people already with the tickets trying to get it to the waiting halls reserved for their trains. I also know the big problem of fake tickets, black market, etc. Nobody mentioned it yet, but the Chinese Railway is toying around with train tickets having traveler's name and ID number written on the ticket (similar to plane tickets) to prevent some of the above problems.

Traveling by CRH and traveling by conventional train is two different experiences. I just hope that in the future, lessons learned at the CRH trains will be implemented in the long-distance conventional trains (they will be still there). Especially if it comes to ticket selling.

I believe few years ago in China one was unable to buy return plane tickets (as to avoid the above problems). All you could buy is one-way ticket and once at the destination, you buy the return ticket. Now, is now problem. You can buy it everywhere: internet, phone, ticket office, etc., but they also have several airlines not one. Seems like the railway ticket system is still stuck in the past...
In times of huge excess demand there are big problems with ticket touts, which incidentally you don't see with CRH trains which experience relative excess supply. As excess demand diminishes over time as more HSLs are built the black market will disappear, so a customer-focused MOR with some foresight ought to be thinking about making the system more flexible rather than more draconian. The airline industry is much less regulated so of course market-driven innovations become reality relatively quickly.

I think the MOR's intention is to phase out classical passenger trains completely as they want to use the classical trains for the more profitable freight services, which makes sense, as it's more efficient for both passengers and the MOR. However I don't see why conventional trains and CRH need to be completely different experiences for the sake of it. Speed, convenience and value for money are the top priority for virtually all travellers.
__________________
My Shanghai photos - Nanjing Road, People's Square, The Bund, Xintiandi and more!
NCT no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 14th, 2011, 05:32 PM   #4273
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,975
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
I think the MOR's intention is to phase out classical passenger trains completely as they want to use the classical trains for the more profitable freight services, which makes sense, as it's more efficient for both passengers and the MOR.
I do not quite see why it is more efficient. Yes, express trains do not fit well with freight, because the express train needs to get past slower freight trains and clogs up the freight railway by forcing the freight trains to wait on sidings. But that reasoning would not apply to local passenger trains which fit the speed of freight trains.
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 14th, 2011, 05:41 PM   #4274
hmmwv
Registered User
 
hmmwv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,391
Likes (Received): 420

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
I do not quite see why it is more efficient. Yes, express trains do not fit well with freight, because the express train needs to get past slower freight trains and clogs up the freight railway by forcing the freight trains to wait on sidings. But that reasoning would not apply to local passenger trains which fit the speed of freight trains.
I agree, there is no way they can phase out conventional trains all together, even if all of China's major cities are linked with ICLs there are still too many county level cities that need their own train service, and the conventional train will not cause problems that CRH trains used to cause when they travel on mixed use track. Having said that, on lines that is already has a ICL built, the parallel conventional track should be dedicated to freight traffic.
hmmwv no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 14th, 2011, 05:51 PM   #4275
NCT
Not Cwite There
 
NCT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Shanghai, London, Nottingham
Posts: 6,211
Likes (Received): 1777

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
I do not quite see why it is more efficient. Yes, express trains do not fit well with freight, because the express train needs to get past slower freight trains and clogs up the freight railway by forcing the freight trains to wait on sidings. But that reasoning would not apply to local passenger trains which fit the speed of freight trains.
I wasn't being entirely careful, though in any case local trains share more characteristics with (low-frequency) metros and buses, and do not have the same problems face by current long-distance classic trains. What I meant was conventional long-distance trains on trunk routes like Shanghai - Chengdu, which will almost certainly cease to exist when the HSR network becomes mature.
__________________
My Shanghai photos - Nanjing Road, People's Square, The Bund, Xintiandi and more!
NCT no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 14th, 2011, 06:56 PM   #4276
Simfan34
Complainer-in-Chief
 
Simfan34's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: NYC
Posts: 11,886
Likes (Received): 2463

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
If NYC can build a new Grand central, it would have been much larger! NCT has a fetish for small underground stations, he just hates comfortable, natural lighted, shiny, big ones
No, China builds big, we in the US build small. We'll be lucky if we get a new Penn Station before the middle of the century.
__________________
(Don't forget Ethiopia and NYC, too!)
Simfan34 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 14th, 2011, 07:19 PM   #4277
cbz
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 86
Likes (Received): 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simfan34 View Post
No, China builds big, we in the US build small. We'll be lucky if we get a new Penn Station before the middle of the century.
In terms of number of platforms and tracks, Grand Central is still the biggest
cbz no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 14th, 2011, 08:41 PM   #4278
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,975
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
All these new high speed train stations are required and as a bonus great looking . If NYC can build a new Grand central, it would have been much larger! NCT has a fetish for small underground stations, he just hates comfortable, natural lighted, shiny, big ones
How does Shin-Osaka station compare? A major station new built for the high speed railway station, in the outskirts of city.
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 15th, 2011, 09:47 AM   #4279
zergcerebrates
Registered User
 
zergcerebrates's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Guam,Los Angeles
Posts: 2,287
Likes (Received): 62

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbz View Post
In terms of number of platforms and tracks, Grand Central is still the biggest
Yea only in tracks/platforms, but overall the Chinese stations are bigger concourse wise most US stations are small now due to its age.
zergcerebrates no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 15th, 2011, 07:55 PM   #4280
k.k.jetcar
Registered User
 
k.k.jetcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Sapporo
Posts: 1,811
Likes (Received): 452

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
How does Shin-Osaka station compare? A major station new built for the high speed railway station, in the outskirts of city.
Well, when Shin-Osaka Station was built in the early 1960's, it was likely the most modern railway station in Japan at that time. It was elevated over the conventional railway lines and an elevated subway line, so all concourses, waiting rooms, shops, etc. were located underneath the (3 and a half) platforms, allowing a compact footprint. In Japan people generally arrive at the station only a few minutes before catching a train (as trains are almost always on-time), so waiting rooms tend to be small as well as concourses.
k.k.jetcar no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
china, high speed train, rail, tgv

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 03:38 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium