daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old March 5th, 2011, 09:14 PM   #4381
Gag Halfrunt
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 719
Likes (Received): 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
The distance between 2 chinese railway stations are very very long when comparing with Europe and Japan. MoR dismissed most suburban trains in 90 decade, now MoR do transport inter-city passengers only.
Were any suburban services taken over by other operators?
Gag Halfrunt no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old March 5th, 2011, 09:18 PM   #4382
bace
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 11
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gag Halfrunt View Post
Were any suburban services taken over by other operators?
MoR was the loser in comparation with bus.
bace no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 5th, 2011, 09:52 PM   #4383
Restless
Registered User
 
Restless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: London
Posts: 2,170
Likes (Received): 271

Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
350km/h CRHs are slower then 80km/h metro at minimum intervals of 3min.
you are right. The child is wrong.
Of course, you don't actually run trains at 3 minute intervals, which is why you can only squeeze in about 10 trains per hour.

===

Q: What is the minimum interval between shinkansen trains?
A: On the Sanyo Shinkansen, trains running at 300km/h require a minimum interval of 3 minutes 45 seconds between the train in front. On the Tokaido Shinkansen, where the maximum speed is 270km/h, this is 3 minutes 30 seconds.

Source:
http://community.livejournal.com/ele...ains/1705.html

===
Restless no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 5th, 2011, 10:01 PM   #4384
Restless
Registered User
 
Restless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: London
Posts: 2,170
Likes (Received): 271

Groan

A cost-benefit exercise was undertaken, and it was judged that railway capacity was being wasted on short suburban trains.

This was because:

1. the railway line were already running over their capacity
2. for long-haul journeys, railways have a larger ratio of benefits compared to the alternatives
3. for short-distance journeys, it was judged that local buses deliver more benefits, and it was easy to shift passengers to buses.

===

In summary:
Short-distance rail trains generally make a loss. Why bother with these types of services, if long-distance trains make a profit? Especially if you don't have any spare rail capacity

Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
MoR was the loser in comparation with bus.
Restless no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 5th, 2011, 11:07 PM   #4385
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,980
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
The distance between 2 chinese railway stations are very very long when comparing with Europe and Japan.
I count 28 stations between Hongqiao and Nanjing on 301 km high speed railway. Nonstop trains cover it in 73 minutes.

Tokaido Shinkansen has 13 stations between Tokyo and Nagoya, 346 km.

From Hongqiao, Nanjing can be reached in 73 minutes, but reaching Pudong, 62 km away, takes 91 minutes with 29 stops on Shanghai Metro line 2.

If suburban trains overload the lines then buses would overload roads (and so would cars). What is thus necessary is building suburban railways.

Trains that travel at just 80...120 km/h and average just 40 km/h are indeed not very good compared to buses and cars. Which is why China needs to build railways with 150...250 km/h maximum and 100...150 km/h average speed. And frequent stops.
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 6th, 2011, 12:46 AM   #4386
Restless
Registered User
 
Restless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: London
Posts: 2,170
Likes (Received): 271

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
I count 28 stations between Hongqiao and Nanjing on 301 km high speed railway. Nonstop trains cover it in 73 minutes.

Tokaido Shinkansen has 13 stations between Tokyo and Nagoya, 346 km.

From Hongqiao, Nanjing can be reached in 73 minutes, but reaching Pudong, 62 km away, takes 91 minutes with 29 stops on Shanghai Metro line 2.

If suburban trains overload the lines then buses would overload roads (and so would cars). What is thus necessary is building suburban railways.

Trains that travel at just 80...120 km/h and average just 40 km/h are indeed not very good compared to buses and cars. Which is why China needs to build railways with 150...250 km/h maximum and 100...150 km/h average speed. And frequent stops.

It's not really a comparable situation to the Tokaido. There's also the section of the Beijing-Shanghai 350km/h which runs parallel to the slower Nanjing-Shanghai line.
Restless no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 6th, 2011, 01:27 AM   #4387
greenlion
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 374
Likes (Received): 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless View Post
It's not really a comparable situation to the Tokaido. There's also the section of the Beijing-Shanghai 350km/h which runs parallel to the slower Nanjing-Shanghai line.
When the Jinghu PDL opens, the Huning HSR will change to be a 250-300km/h ICL, as it covers 15 passenger stations, some of them are not on the Jinghu PDL. the Jiungu PDL only have 8 stops between Nanjing and Shanghai.

the distence between Nanjing and Shanghai is 300 km, that's the length of Huning HSR. at this distence, 250-300km/h ICL's will be great to connect big cities and smaller cities around them, for example, the Jingshi PDL (Beijing-Shijiazhuang), is set to open by end of 2011, the 281 km HSR has 6 stops, designed speed 350km/h, at the same time, a 250-300km/h Jingshi ICL is under planning, it will cover more stations, to connecct Beijing and Shijiazhuang with smaller or satellite cities around them.

this picture shows Beijing's 8 HSR's around it:


Jingshi ICL
Jingshi PDL (Beijing-Shijiazhuang section of Jingguang PDL)
Jingjiu PDL (Beijing-Nanchang-Hongkong)
Jinghu PDL
Jingjin ICL
Jingtang ICL (Beijing-Tangshan)
Jingshen PDL (Beijing-Chengde-Shenyang)
Jingzhang ICL (Beijing-Zhangjiakou)
greenlion no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 6th, 2011, 04:53 AM   #4388
bace
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 11
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
I count 28 stations between Hongqiao and Nanjing on 301 km high speed railway. Nonstop trains cover it in 73 minutes.

Tokaido Shinkansen has 13 stations between Tokyo and Nagoya, 346 km.

From Hongqiao, Nanjing can be reached in 73 minutes, but reaching Pudong, 62 km away, takes 91 minutes with 29 stops on Shanghai Metro line 2.

If suburban trains overload the lines then buses would overload roads (and so would cars). What is thus necessary is building suburban railways.

Trains that travel at just 80...120 km/h and average just 40 km/h are indeed not very good compared to buses and cars. Which is why China needs to build railways with 150...250 km/h maximum and 100...150 km/h average speed. And frequent stops.
It's a GREAT joke.
CRH350 need ~50 kilometer to accelerate from 0 to 350 km/h, so CRH350s are slower (about 15km/h average speed) than 120km/h EMU if they stop 28 stations on 301 km high speed railway.
bace no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 6th, 2011, 05:27 AM   #4389
quashlo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 14,835
Likes (Received): 3215

Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless View Post
Q: What is the minimum interval between shinkansen trains?
A: On the Sanyo Shinkansen, trains running at 300km/h require a minimum interval of 3 minutes 45 seconds between the train in front. On the Tokaido Shinkansen, where the maximum speed is 270km/h, this is 3 minutes 30 seconds.
I think people may be confusing the concept of headways, as there are multiple constraints.

The 3 min. that people are quoting for CRH is probably the minimum headway permitted by the train control system, when trains are actually in motion and running consecutively. This is an accepted practical standard for HSR operations. Digital ATC (used by all Shinkansen except the Nagano and San'yō lines... San'yō is getting the upgrade right now) allows for this, as do its derivatives, including the ATC system on the Taiwan high-speed rail, which is based on the ATC-NS used on the Tōkaidō Shinkansen.

The numbers you are quoting for the Shinkansen are the constraints at the terminal crossovers due to the need to switch tracks, and are from a now-defunct site. Tōkyō Station is probably around 3 minutes, 15 seconds now after the conversion to digital ATC in 2006... The 3 minutes, 30 seconds you are quoting for the Tōkaidō Shinkansen is the analog ATC that had been in use since the line first opened in 1964. There is a clear explanation for laypersons here (in Japanese) about the effect of the terminal constraints on actual headways, written by professors who are experts in this stuff.
quashlo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 6th, 2011, 10:50 AM   #4390
makita09
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,536
Likes (Received): 92

Yes and it also needs pointing out that 3 minute headway is only required at full speed, a train puling out of a station after a fast one has passed only requires a head way of a minute, as it isn't going very fast at that point. By the time it is at linespeed the headway is back to the 3 minute requirement.
__________________
"There is no problem so bad that you can't make it worse" - Chris Hadfield
makita09 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 6th, 2011, 10:57 AM   #4391
:jax:
Registered User
 
:jax:'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Södertälje
Posts: 1,303
Likes (Received): 540

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
I count 28 stations between Hongqiao and Nanjing on 301 km high speed railway. Nonstop trains cover it in 73 minutes.

Trains that travel at just 80...120 km/h and average just 40 km/h are indeed not very good compared to buses and cars. Which is why China needs to build railways with 150...250 km/h maximum and 100...150 km/h average speed. And frequent stops.
One station per 10 km does sound excessive for not-so-high-speed-anymore trains. But as most of these stations would be there to feed the major stations anyway it could be possible to have a staggered local train schedule. If the major stations are 1, 16, and 30, one train could go 1, 8, 16, 21, 26, 30, another 1, 6, 11, 16, 24, 30 and so on (actual schedule dependent on which stations and traffic pattern make sense). The trains would move near top speed most of the time, at the cost of some complexity of schedule if you want to go from minor station to minor station and having to change at a major station.
:jax: no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 6th, 2011, 01:56 PM   #4392
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,980
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
It's a GREAT joke.
CRH350 need ~50 kilometer to accelerate from 0 to 350 km/h, so CRH350s are slower (about 15km/h average speed) than 120km/h EMU if they stop 28 stations on 301 km high speed railway.
Are they?
What is difficult is accelerating at high speed. How long does CRH350 take to accelerate from 300 km/h to 350 km/h? And how much from 0 to 100 km/h?
How does the acceleration of CRH350 from 0 to 100 km/h compare to an 120 km/h EMU?
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 6th, 2011, 06:30 PM   #4393
ironalbo
Un chileno más
 
ironalbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Santiago
Posts: 339
Likes (Received): 62

anyone have more pics to upload please??? less talk and more pics please...
ironalbo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 7th, 2011, 05:49 AM   #4394
ANR
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 932
Likes (Received): 117

High speed rail stays on track

By Xin Dingding (China Daily)
Updated: 2011-03-07

BEIJING - China's newly-appointed railway minister has said the country will continue to develop its high-speed rail network as planned even after its former minister was ousted. Sheng Guangzu, who took office on Feb 25 to replace former railway minister Liu Zhijun, made the remarks on Saturday when responding to questions whether China's policy of high-speed rail development will change with Liu's fall from grace.

Liu was placed under investigation for "severe violation of discipline" on Feb 12 by the discipline watchdog of the Communist Party of China (CPC). Liu's is "an individual case" and will not have a big impact on the railway system's future development and morale, Sheng was quoted by the Beijing News as saying. He said the change of minister will not change the roadmap of China's high-speed railway development, as the country will continue to develop its fast train network under its national medium-to-long-term program. The railway system now runs stably and achieved its mission during the past Spring Festival travel peak, he said. It was the first time 62-year-old Sheng faced the media after taking office at the railway ministry. The former head of the General Administration of Customs was vice-railway minister before being transferred to customs as deputy commissioner in 2000.

Zhang Junbang, director of the Zhengzhou railway bureau and a deputy to the National People's Congress (NPC), told China Daily that the plan for building high-speed railways in his bureau's territory this year has not changed, and a high-speed rail line linking Wuhan, capital of Central China's Hubei province, and Shijiazhuang, capital of North China's Hebei province, will be completed by the end of this year. Following the removal of Liu and later the ministry's deputy chief engineer Zhang Shuguang - both leaders in China's high-speed railway development - the ministry faced doubts and pressure from many sides.

Some believed the ministry will not be able to pay back the huge loans it borrowed from banks for building the massive high-speed rail network, while others suspected the stunningly fast construction of the high-speed railways might generate potential safety hazards.

As to the solvency of the ministry's affiliated companies, Sheng said on Saturday that the 1.8-trillion-yuan ($274-billion) debt used for building the country's massive high-speed rail network was still "at a controllable level". "I believe the high-speed rail market will be rosy" after many projects still under construction are put into service, he said.

As for whether the ministry should build so many high-speed railways in only a few years, Wang Mengshu, a professor at the Research Center of Tunnel and Underground Engineering at Beijing Jiaotong University and a deputy to the NPC, said that forming a network in a relatively short period can generate more profits than laying out the railways one by one. And the quick speed of construction is not likely to affect quality as the key to safety is the rail track, and China has overcome difficulties to make sure the tracks stay where they are for years so that trains will not derail at high speeds, he said.

Zheng Xinli, former deputy director of the policy research office of the CPC Central Committee and a member of the National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference, said that with the growth of the network and people's income, high-speed railways will gradually attract more passengers and eventually begin to make a profit. By then, paying back the huge debt will not be a problem, Zheng said.

The country has planned to expand its high-speed rail network to 13,000 km by 2012 and to 16,000 km by 2020. At the end of 2010, the network was already the world's longest at 8,358 km, of which 5,149 km were put into service in 2010.
ANR no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 7th, 2011, 07:28 AM   #4395
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,960
Likes (Received): 18220

Well ... a state enterprise borrowing from a state enteprise probably won't be a big problem ...
__________________
Hong Kong Photo Gallery - Click Here for the Hong Kong Galleries

World Photo Gallery - | St. Petersburg, Russia | Pyongyang | Tokyo | Istanbul | Dubai | Shanghai | Mumbai | Bangkok | Sydney

New York, London, Prague, Iceland, Rocky Mountains, Angkor Wat, Sri Lanka, Poland, Myanmar, and much more!
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 7th, 2011, 10:55 AM   #4396
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,980
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by ANR View Post
By Xin Dingding (China Daily)
Updated: 2011-03-07

BEIJING - China's newly-appointed railway minister has said the country will continue to develop its high-speed rail network as planned even after its former minister was ousted. Sheng Guangzu, who took office on Feb 25 to replace former railway minister Liu Zhijun, made the remarks on Saturday when responding to questions whether China's policy of high-speed rail development will change with Liu's fall from grace.

Liu was placed under investigation for "severe violation of discipline" on Feb 12 by the discipline watchdog of the Communist Party of China (CPC). Liu's is "an individual case" and will not have a big impact on the railway system's future development and morale, Sheng was quoted by the Beijing News as saying. He said the change of minister will not change the roadmap of China's high-speed railway development, as the country will continue to develop its fast train network under its national medium-to-long-term program. The railway system now runs stably and achieved its mission during the past Spring Festival travel peak, he said. It was the first time 62-year-old Sheng faced the media after taking office at the railway ministry. The former head of the General Administration of Customs was vice-railway minister before being transferred to customs as deputy commissioner in 2000.

Zhang Junbang, director of the Zhengzhou railway bureau and a deputy to the National People's Congress (NPC), told China Daily that the plan for building high-speed railways in his bureau's territory this year has not changed, and a high-speed rail line linking Wuhan, capital of Central China's Hubei province, and Shijiazhuang, capital of North China's Hebei province, will be completed by the end of this year. Following the removal of Liu and later the ministry's deputy chief engineer Zhang Shuguang - both leaders in China's high-speed railway development - the ministry faced doubts and pressure from many sides.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ANR View Post
As for whether the ministry should build so many high-speed railways in only a few years, Wang Mengshu, a professor at the Research Center of Tunnel and Underground Engineering at Beijing Jiaotong University and a deputy to the NPC, said that forming a network in a relatively short period can generate more profits than laying out the railways one by one. And the quick speed of construction is not likely to affect quality as the key to safety is the rail track, and China has overcome difficulties to make sure the tracks stay where they are for years so that trains will not derail at high speeds, he said.

Zheng Xinli, former deputy director of the policy research office of the CPC Central Committee and a member of the National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference, said that with the growth of the network and people's income, high-speed railways will gradually attract more passengers and eventually begin to make a profit. By then, paying back the huge debt will not be a problem, Zheng said.

The country has planned to expand its high-speed rail network to 13,000 km by 2012 and to 16,000 km by 2020. At the end of 2010, the network was already the world's longest at 8,358 km, of which 5,149 km were put into service in 2010.
Where are the 3000 km railways that shall be built between 2012 and 2020?
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 7th, 2011, 02:35 PM   #4397
yaohua2000
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 453
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Where are the 3000 km railways that shall be built between 2012 and 2020?
It's has been revised to 13000 km by the end of 2011 and 25000 km by the end of 2015.
yaohua2000 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2011, 03:08 AM   #4398
HunanChina
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Changsha
Posts: 265
Likes (Received): 5

High-speed railway of Coastal area in the West Guangdong province(Shenzhen深圳-Maoming茂名) approved by Development and Reform Commission.

371km, 200km/h and upgradeable to 250km/h. maybe could connect with Hainan ER ICL at 2020.
image hosted on flickr



image hosted on flickr

Last edited by HunanChina; March 12th, 2011 at 03:14 AM.
HunanChina no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2011, 06:17 AM   #4399
big-dog
Registered User
 
big-dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,080
Likes (Received): 6840

Hangzhou east station (U/C)

One of the largest railway stations once built (again )

The project will be completed at the end of 2011, opening by June 30th 2012.

renderings







Construction pics (March 10th)







from news.xinhuanet.com
big-dog no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2011, 03:17 PM   #4400
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,980
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by HunanChina View Post
High-speed railway of Coastal area in the West Guangdong province(Shenzhen深圳-Maoming茂名) approved by Development and Reform Commission.

371km, 200km/h and upgradeable to 250km/h. maybe could connect with Hainan ER ICL at 2020.
image hosted on flickr



image hosted on flickr
What is due for opening in 2020 - just the part Shenzhen-Maoming, or the part Maoming-Haikou?
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
china, high speed train, rail, tgv

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium