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Old December 30th, 2011, 01:14 AM   #4521
Pansori
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoneybee View Post

There might be fine tuning along the way, but I believe the future of HSR network in China is assured. Sometimes people over-react to short term events or make the mistake of believing policy decision in China are all based on politics and personal preference of a few leaders. The reality is actually far from that.
this should be looked at from a wider perspective. I think this has a lot to do with the more recent Western (well, American to be more precise) short-term goal escalation. This is primarily noticeable in various investment fields (primarily stocks and currencies but also some other transactions). Entire generations of professionals grew up with the vision that finance is somehow the best and most prominent field to be in. It's not. It's just the intermediary between the subjects (people, companies, governments).

Therefore the mindset of such people (including ones in the media and news) may not longer comprehend the idea that something may be done not with a sole objective of making a profit by the end of Q4 or achieving a positive cash flow by the end of Q2 next year.

They don't understand that China's 'dependency' on fixed asset investments is happening not because it's an easy way to boost growth or inflate a bubble but, above all, because Chinese people must be fed up of waiting in those massive queues in the sweaty and claustrophobic train stations and then riding overcrowded slow trains. Also because economy has to growth not only next year but also after 10 or 15 or even 30 years. And, finally, also because it's just better to invest a trillion USD into good, efficient and fast transportation rather than use it to bail out failed banks of give it out for consumption...

Building good and efficient railway network (as well as road network, seaports, airports...) is one of the main core 'hardware' components of a fast moving, dynamic and contemporary economy which China is deemed to be regardless whether some like it or not.

Last edited by Pansori; December 30th, 2011 at 01:19 AM.
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Old December 30th, 2011, 02:31 AM   #4522
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Absolutely agree with you, the impressive expansion of rail network in China is investing for the future, while satisfying the demand of today. The US once had visionary projects like that as well, such as the New Deal and the National System of Interstate and Defense Highways.
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Old December 30th, 2011, 11:08 AM   #4523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
He didn't say what comprised that 6366km figure, only that's the length of railway line will be put into service. To compare in 2011 the figure is laid new line 3176km, double existing line 2468km, put into operation 2022km.
Here is what was promised for 2011:
http://www.dearpassengers.com/2011/0...lways-in-2011/

Quote:
1. This year will see the opening of a whole slew of HSR routes, including the critical Beijing-Shanghai, Beijing-Shenzhen and Shanghai-Shenzhen High Speed Railways.

Here’s what’s opening this year on the rails:

■Beijing-Shanghai HSR
Did.
Quote:
■Harbin-Dalian HSR
■Beijing-Shenzhen HSR
Meaning:
Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou-Wuhan
Wuhan-Guangzhou (open since 2009)
Guangzhou-Longhua (opened 2011)
Quote:
■Tianjin-Qinhuangdao HSR
■Nanjing-Hangzhou HSR (direct; will skip Shanghai entirely)
■Shanghai-Shenzhen HSR
Meaning:
Shanghai-Hangzhou (open since 2010)
Hangzhou-Ningbo
Ningbo-Wenzhou-Fuzhou-Xiamen (open)
Xiamen-Longhua
Quote:
■Wuhan-Yichang HSR
■Hefei-Bengbu HSR
■Wuhan-Xiaogan HSR
■Wuhan-Xianning HSR
■Xilinhot-Ulanhot Railway
■Longyan-Xiamen Railway
Which of the above are permanently cancelled, which are delayed to 2013 or beyond, and which are now on time to open sometime in 2012?
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Old December 30th, 2011, 01:39 PM   #4524
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Guangzhou-Shenzhen CRH

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzM3NTY5NzI4.html

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzM3NjgzNTE2.html
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Old December 30th, 2011, 07:39 PM   #4525
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
this should be looked at from a wider perspective. I think this has a lot to do with the more recent Western (well, American to be more precise) short-term goal escalation. This is primarily noticeable in various investment fields (primarily stocks and currencies but also some other transactions). Entire generations of professionals grew up with the vision that finance is somehow the best and most prominent field to be in. It's not. It's just the intermediary between the subjects (people, companies, governments).

Therefore the mindset of such people (including ones in the media and news) may not longer comprehend the idea that something may be done not with a sole objective of making a profit by the end of Q4 or achieving a positive cash flow by the end of Q2 next year.

They don't understand that China's 'dependency' on fixed asset investments is happening not because it's an easy way to boost growth or inflate a bubble but, above all, because Chinese people must be fed up of waiting in those massive queues in the sweaty and claustrophobic train stations and then riding overcrowded slow trains. Also because economy has to growth not only next year but also after 10 or 15 or even 30 years. And, finally, also because it's just better to invest a trillion USD into good, efficient and fast transportation rather than use it to bail out failed banks of give it out for consumption...

Building good and efficient railway network (as well as road network, seaports, airports...) is one of the main core 'hardware' components of a fast moving, dynamic and contemporary economy which China is deemed to be regardless whether some like it or not.
Well Said, Brother, well said!

The western governments/societies seem to have forgotten in recent years how important infrastructure (all kinds - both hard and soft) is to the overall strength and long term properity of a nation, and the fact that infrastructure has to be continuously renewed as the society and technology changes.

I think we at the west have become too comfortable in our current living conditions and not willing to accept the fact that the world changes every day - what we had as the best in the past might not even be considered adequate in the future.
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Old December 30th, 2011, 08:56 PM   #4526
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Thanks stoneybee.

One more thing that some are forgetting is that virtually all developed western nations were building similar projects (relevant to their size of course) even if demand was much lower than it currently is in China. For instance, Germany drew its autobahn plans long before most Germans owned a car... Same in many other countries which now have extensive and adequate transportation systems. They are enjoying it now and reap the benefits. Imagine if back in the 50's or so Germany would had decided that such fixed asset investments like autobahn construction are not sustainable and cause too much debt... But it didn't. This is the reason it's now got state of the art transport infrastructure which contributes to its status as a global economic power and a superpower in the global trade.
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Old December 31st, 2011, 02:02 AM   #4527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HunanChina View Post
Which direction is the first video going?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Thanks stoneybee.

One more thing that some are forgetting is that virtually all developed western nations were building similar projects (relevant to their size of course) even if demand was much lower than it currently is in China. For instance, Germany drew its autobahn plans long before most Germans owned a car... Same in many other countries which now have extensive and adequate transportation systems. They are enjoying it now and reap the benefits. Imagine if back in the 50's or so Germany would had decided that such fixed asset investments like autobahn construction are not sustainable and cause too much debt... But it didn't. This is the reason it's now got state of the art transport infrastructure which contributes to its status as a global economic power and a superpower in the global trade.
True. Plus when the world runs out of oil China will be able to transport people without much of it since they'll have an excellent electrified rail system....unlike the U.S. where we'll have to go back to horses.
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Old December 31st, 2011, 02:15 AM   #4528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Which of the above are permanently cancelled, which are delayed to 2013 or beyond, and which are now on time to open sometime in 2012?
Harbin-Dalian PDL, construction completed, test run delayed to March 2012, service start June 2012.

Beijing-Shijiazhuang HSR, service start delayed to late 2012.

Shijiazhuang-Wuhan PDL, construction completed, test run delayed to March 2012, service start July 2012.

Tianjin-Qinhuangdao HSR, suspended by Ministry of Environmental Protection in May 2011. AFAIK the suspension hasn't been lifted.

Nanjing-Hangzhou HSR, construction completed, test run delayed to Feb 2012, service start June 2012.

Hangzhou-Ningbo PDL, service start delayed to June 2012.

Xiamen-Shenzhen Railway (passenger and freight mixed use), severely delayed, viaduct construction suppose to finish by Jan 2011, they are no where near that as of this month. I believe it will be delayed into 2013.

Wuhan-Yichang HSR, construction completed and test started in Nov 2011, service start June 2012.

Hefei-Bengbu PDL, service start on time August 2012.

Wuhan Megalopolis Intercity Rail, Xianning section open May 2012. Others (Xiaogan, Huangshi, Huanggang) delayed to 2013.

Xilinhot-Ulanhot Railway, under construction, most major infrastructural projects finished by end of 2011, opening possibly delayed to 2013.

Longyan-Xiamen Railway (passenger and freight mixed use), construction finished, test starts March 2012, service start date unknown.

Now we just need to add those 2012 openings up and see how many km they are.

Last edited by hmmwv; December 31st, 2011 at 02:28 AM.
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Old December 31st, 2011, 10:49 AM   #4529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
Harbin-Dalian PDL, construction completed, test run delayed to March 2012, service start June 2012.
904 km
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
Beijing-Shijiazhuang HSR, service start delayed to late 2012.
281 km
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
Shijiazhuang-Wuhan PDL, construction completed, test run delayed to March 2012, service start July 2012.
840 km
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
Tianjin-Qinhuangdao HSR, suspended by Ministry of Environmental Protection in May 2011. AFAIK the suspension hasn't been lifted.

Nanjing-Hangzhou HSR, construction completed, test run delayed to Feb 2012, service start June 2012.
249 km
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
Hangzhou-Ningbo PDL, service start delayed to June 2012.
152 km
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
Xiamen-Shenzhen Railway (passenger and freight mixed use), severely delayed, viaduct construction suppose to finish by Jan 2011, they are no where near that as of this month. I believe it will be delayed into 2013.

Wuhan-Yichang HSR, construction completed and test started in Nov 2011, service start June 2012.
293 km
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
Hefei-Bengbu PDL, service start on time August 2012.
131 km
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
Wuhan Megalopolis Intercity Rail, Xianning section open May 2012.
How long is that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
Others (Xiaogan, Huangshi, Huanggang) delayed to 2013.

Xilinhot-Ulanhot Railway, under construction, most major infrastructural projects finished by end of 2011, opening possibly delayed to 2013.

Longyan-Xiamen Railway (passenger and freight mixed use), construction finished, test starts March 2012, service start date unknown.
171 km
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post


Now we just need to add those 2012 openings up and see how many km they are.
3021 km, plus Wuhan-Xianniang.

What are the remaining 3345- km?
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Old December 31st, 2011, 06:52 PM   #4530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
Harbin-Dalian PDL, construction completed, test run delayed to March 2012, service start June 2012.

Beijing-Shijiazhuang HSR, service start delayed to late 2012.

Shijiazhuang-Wuhan PDL, construction completed, test run delayed to March 2012, service start July 2012.

Tianjin-Qinhuangdao HSR, suspended by Ministry of Environmental Protection in May 2011. AFAIK the suspension hasn't been lifted.

Nanjing-Hangzhou HSR, construction completed, test run delayed to Feb 2012, service start June 2012.

Hangzhou-Ningbo PDL, service start delayed to June 2012.

Xiamen-Shenzhen Railway (passenger and freight mixed use), severely delayed, viaduct construction suppose to finish by Jan 2011, they are no where near that as of this month. I believe it will be delayed into 2013.

Wuhan-Yichang HSR, construction completed and test started in Nov 2011, service start June 2012.

Hefei-Bengbu PDL, service start on time August 2012.

Wuhan Megalopolis Intercity Rail, Xianning section open May 2012. Others (Xiaogan, Huangshi, Huanggang) delayed to 2013.

Xilinhot-Ulanhot Railway, under construction, most major infrastructural projects finished by end of 2011, opening possibly delayed to 2013.

Longyan-Xiamen Railway (passenger and freight mixed use), construction finished, test starts March 2012, service start date unknown.

Now we just need to add those 2012 openings up and see how many km they are.
What's the difference between HSR and PDL? Is a PDL a high speed line?
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Old December 31st, 2011, 09:08 PM   #4531
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PDL's are passenger dedicated lines I'm assuming. Probably meaning only passenger HSR trains run on those lines.
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Old January 1st, 2012, 02:38 AM   #4532
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post

How long is that?

3021 km, plus Wuhan-Xianniang.

What are the remaining 3345- km?
Wuhan-Xianning section is 90km. It's a good question where the remaining 3345km come from, however most of those ones we have calculated are HSR lines, there are so many smaller conventional intercity and freight lines that various railway bureaus put into service that are not national projects. In addition, there are double lines of current single track lines. I think it's almost impossible to determine the exact lines put into service until the end of 2012.
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Old January 1st, 2012, 11:43 AM   #4533
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
Wuhan-Xianning section is 90km.
Thanks.
I note that Wuhan and Xianning already are connected by high speed railway. Xianning North is 85 km from Wuhan on Wuhan-Guangzhou high speed railway. There is 1 intermediate stop, namely Wulongquan East.

With the second Wuhan-Xianning high speed railway, it means 3111 km of known lines for 2012.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
In addition, there are double lines of current single track lines.
Are these 3111 km, probably all double track lines, counted double into the 6366 km? Then only 144 km remain.

Also, are there any triple or quadruple lines of current double or triple track lines which are due to open in 2012?
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Old January 2nd, 2012, 04:22 AM   #4534
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Are these 3111 km, probably all double track lines, counted double into the 6366 km? Then only 144 km remain.

Also, are there any triple or quadruple lines of current double or triple track lines which are due to open in 2012?
I very much doubt they will count double because when they speak of mileage of new lines put into operation, they never counted double tracks. Mileage of doubling current line will always be specified in the news piece.

According to this investment bulletin, in 2011 total new line put into operation is 2022km, and they project that out of the 6366km new lines put into service in 2012, there will be 2957km of PDL, and 722km of ICL. The rest are conventional passenger and freight rail lines with speed below 200km/h. http://www.gjzq.com.cn/main/a/20111227/3366541.shtml

This article is even more interesting, it revealed that according to MOR's initial 2011 schedule (prior to Liu Zhijun's removal) they intend to put 7901km of new line into service, finish doubling 6861km of current single line, electrifying 8800km of current line, lay 7935km of new track, and lay 6211km of new track to double current single line. Out of the planned 7901km of new lines 4642km are HSR. http://hwlzx.crmsc.com.cn/news_Show_user.asp?ID=776
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Old January 4th, 2012, 08:02 AM   #4535
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Another high speed railway to open in Dragon Year is Longhua-Futian:
http://www.szdaily.com/content/2011-...nt_6340677.htm
In September. How long is that?
A feature of the trains:
Quote:
The VIP toilet in the first class is 6 to 7 square meters. The doors are censor-controlled and facilities are similar to those in the first-class area of an airplane.
In other words, the doors are impossible to open with pants down?
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Old January 4th, 2012, 06:41 PM   #4536
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The distance of Longhua(Shenzhen North)-Futian section wasn't clear, but the Guangzhou-Hong Kong line is quote at 142km, Guangzhou-Shenzhen North section 102km, and Futian-Hong Kong section 26km, so by calculation Longhua-Futian is about 14km.
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Old January 4th, 2012, 08:52 PM   #4537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
I very much doubt they will count double because when they speak of mileage of new lines put into operation, they never counted double tracks. Mileage of doubling current line will always be specified in the news piece.

According to this investment bulletin, in 2011 total new line put into operation is 2022km
Known high speed lines were:
Guangzhou-Zhuhai, 7th of January, 117 km
Changchun-Jilin, 13th of January, 111 km
Beijing-Shanghai, 30th of June, 1318 km
Guangzhou-Longhua, 26th of December, 102 km
total 1648 km.
That means a total of 374 km of all other railways.
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Old January 6th, 2012, 01:36 AM   #4538
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taipei Walker View Post
There will be another station in Shenzhen on this line - Longhua Station, I think it will be much larger as it will also include costal line, here is the map:


Except for being transit station, this station will also be completely underground (first underground station in China) and it will be in the very heart of Shenzhen main CBD - in China stations are usually far from main CBD.
I couldn't find the information searching through the thread. What is the Rapid Transit System(RTS)? Also when will the Futian station open? I see wikipedia mentions 2012 but says status is open (must be only for the subway).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futian_Metro_Station
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Old January 6th, 2012, 03:37 AM   #4539
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I am not sure but based on the distance and number of stops, I would assume it's a type of commuter rail.
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Old January 6th, 2012, 03:49 AM   #4540
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
I am not sure but based on the distance and number of stops, I would assume it's a type of commuter rail.
I was wondering if it already exists or if it's proposed. I've never heard of it before. The Pearl River Delta is going to be very well connected. You can either fly from HKG to CAN (Dragonair or China Southern) or take the train.
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