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Old September 21st, 2012, 10:20 PM   #4921
Restless
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Back some 10-15 years ago, China was already experiencing capacity constraints on the railways. So a decision was taken to use scarce slots for long-distance journeys, because local journeys were better off served by bus and subways anyway.

And today, there's a large shortage of slots for slow-moving freight and not much demand for local journeys. So the plan is to run a lot more freight trains, which are also a lot more profitable than local passenger journeys.



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commuter rail is almost non-exsistant in china, only a single Beijing line and a Shanghai line that's opening soon. Though I feel that after the main HSR grid is complete it would be the next logical step for MOR to put in local/commuter services on the freed up slots, cause it helps support HSR ridership.
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Old September 23rd, 2012, 07:04 PM   #4922
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless View Post
Back some 10-15 years ago, China was already experiencing capacity constraints on the railways. So a decision was taken to use scarce slots for long-distance journeys, because local journeys were better off served by bus and subways anyway.

And today, there's a large shortage of slots for slow-moving freight and not much demand for local journeys. So the plan is to run a lot more freight trains, which are also a lot more profitable than local passenger journeys.
IMHO I think the demand is huge for local services judging from the packed subways of large Chinese cities. The problem is most Chinese railways are double track even in urban centres. What they need to do is triple, quad or even sextuple track sections in urban areas (guangshen railway) to accommodate local services running at rapid transit-like frequencies like JR or the MTR east rail line.
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Old September 23rd, 2012, 11:46 PM   #4923
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saiho View Post
IMHO I think the demand is huge for local services judging from the packed subways of large Chinese cities. The problem is most Chinese railways are double track even in urban centres. What they need to do is triple, quad or even sextuple track sections in urban areas (guangshen railway) to accommodate local services running at rapid transit-like frequencies like JR or the MTR east rail line.
Yeah, but if you're going to create a new local railway service, wouldn't it make more sense to choose the optimal alignment, rather than be restricted to the existing route? Subways these days run at 120km/h, which is not that different from 160-180km/h trains.

And you can't mix many freight services with lots of passenger services running at the same time on a line. I think it worked out as one 200km/h service takes up paths that could be used for 3 freight services.
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Old September 23rd, 2012, 11:58 PM   #4924
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Yeah, but if you're going to create a new local railway service, wouldn't it make more sense to choose the optimal alignment, rather than be restricted to the existing route?
Sure. It is just that the subway is another line to build from scratch.
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Subways these days run at 120km/h, which is not that different from 160-180km/h trains.

And you can't mix many freight services with lots of passenger services running at the same time on a line. I think it worked out as one 200km/h service takes up paths that could be used for 3 freight services.
Yes - high speed trains.

Commuter trains are rather closer in speed to freight trains.
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Old September 24th, 2012, 12:35 AM   #4925
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120 km/h (but constantly) is enough for suburban trains which stop every 4-5 km and at this speed there is not much interference with freight. Besides freight can be run mostly during off-peak hours (at night and during the middle of the day).
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Old September 24th, 2012, 04:15 AM   #4926
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Quote:
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Yeah, but if you're going to create a new local railway service, wouldn't it make more sense to choose the optimal alignment, rather than be restricted to the existing route?
Most cities, as they grow, develop along major transit corridors like say conventional railways. So in many situations the mainline railway is the most optimal alignment. Especially if you connect multiple city centres in a metropolitan area, chances are the most direct alignment is the railway.

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Subways these days run at 120km/h, which is not that different from 160-180km/h trains.
Most subways don't run that fast. Only a handful of Chinese regional express subways go close to that figure. (Beijing subway airport express, future shanghai metro line 16, and HTR tung chung line at 110, 120, 135km/h top service speed respectively) Everything else in China runs at a top service speed of 80ish km/h and of course the average speed is much lower than that unless there is non-stop service (almost non exsistant except shanghai line 16). So it would be nice to see some mainline commuter crosstown services that are faster than subways.

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And you can't mix many freight services with lots of passenger services running at the same time on a line. I think it worked out as one 200km/h service takes up paths that could be used for 3 freight services.
that's why i said you should add more tracks urban areas and commuter trains have similar speeds to freight trains in china

Last edited by saiho; September 24th, 2012 at 04:17 AM. Reason: grammer
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Old September 25th, 2012, 12:45 AM   #4927
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
120 km/h (but constantly) is enough for suburban trains which stop every 4-5 km and at this speed there is not much interference with freight. Besides freight can be run mostly during off-peak hours (at night and during the middle of the day).
You do realise there is a serious lack of freight capacity?

Plus remember that commuter rail is normally loss-making, whilst freight is very profitable.
And high-speed rail is normally somewhere in the middle.

So why bother running commuter rail and lose money?
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Old September 25th, 2012, 05:56 AM   #4928
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So why bother running commuter rail and lose money?
Keep cities accessible when roads become clogged.

Feed passengers into other lines to make those even more profitable.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 06:13 AM   #4929
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Quote:
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You do realise there is a serious lack of freight capacity?
Last time I checked there serious lack of capacity for everything that has wheels and moves in China.

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Originally Posted by Restless View Post
Plus remember that commuter rail is normally loss-making, whilst freight is very profitable.
And high-speed rail is normally somewhere in the middle.
By that logic there should be no commuter rail on earth except in East Asia where some commuter rail networks makes money. Oh and China is in East Asia so there could be a chance...
regardless of its profitability, its not about the money there is the other positive externalities that rail brings to the area.

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So why bother running commuter rail and lose money?
In railway economics, even if your branch lines don't make money but they do bring an overall increase in profit from induced ridership in the mainline; you should keep it. HSR in Japan an France is profitable partly because of the dense local rail in their cities.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 06:31 AM   #4930
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New 25T train debut on Guangzhou-Shijiazhuang route (Aug 2012)

There's very cool video on Guangzhou-Shijiazhuang T89



from weibo and baiu
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Old September 25th, 2012, 09:00 PM   #4931
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Must be part of the order MOR put in earlier this year for thousands of new 25T carriages.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 10:48 PM   #4932
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saiho View Post
Last time I checked there serious lack of capacity for everything that has wheels and moves in China.
So should overground rail capacity be used for unprofitable short-distance commuters who can take a bus or subway, instead of long-distance passengers and freight trains that are more profitable?


Quote:
Originally Posted by saiho View Post
By that logic there should be no commuter rail on earth except in East Asia where some commuter rail networks makes money. Oh and China is in East Asia so there could be a chance...
regardless of its profitability, its not about the money there is the other positive externalities that rail brings to the area.
Yup. Most countries have to subsidise their commuter rail networks.

In the UK, I think about half of all commuter services/rails were cut as everyone turned to cars and trucks about 40years ago. The commuter services still run because the rails have already been paid for, so the subsidies aren't too great.

And at the moment, Chinese commuters just aren't able to afford the costs of a commuter network. I think it'll take another 5-10years before incomes rise enough to make it economically feasible, so it's better to concentrate on the profitable parts of the network first.


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Originally Posted by saiho View Post
In railway economics, even if your branch lines don't make money but they do bring an overall increase in profit from induced ridership in the mainline; you should keep it. HSR in Japan an France is profitable partly because of the dense local rail in their cities.
Yup, but dense local networks are better provided by buses which are normally profitable, and by subways. The subways are underground next to city-core locations, and travel overground in the suburbs at 120km/h as well.

In comparison, commuter rail lines cover fewer people and fewer places of interest.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 11:04 PM   #4933
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Subways are ok and needed in large cities, although generally more expensive to build than commuter rail lines. No one, however, is particularly keen on long bus journeys. In places where nothing better is available (in cities and sizable towns) they tend to be relegated to poor people with everyone else driving with disastrous consequences to average commuting times. For smaller places were real metro is not justified light rail is a good alternative.There is a big boom in construction of new light rail in many European towns after so much of it was closed in 50-ties and 60-ties...
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Old September 26th, 2012, 02:30 AM   #4934
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Quote:
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So should overground rail capacity be used for unprofitable short-distance commuters who can take a bus or subway, instead of long-distance passengers and freight trains that are more profitable?
yes it should because

A) subways don't go everywhere and aren't too common in china right now (in the grand scheme of things)
B) buses are hardly higher order higher capacity transit and people take them cause they have no choice. (unless its BRT but thats not too common either)

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Yup. Most countries have to subsidise their commuter rail networks.
So, ya the reasons they keep them is the reason China should get some.

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In the UK, I think about half of all commuter services/rails were cut as everyone turned to cars and trucks about 40years ago. The commuter services still run because the rails have already been paid for, so the subsidies aren't too great.
well maybe they should ramp up the subsidies cause london is kinda a commuter nightmare and right now UK is sort of regretting Beeching Axe losses.

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Yup, but dense local networks are better provided by buses which are normally profitable, and by subways. The subways are underground next to city-core locations, and travel overground in the suburbs at 120km/h as well.
given chinas density just buses and subways probably not good enough. buses will get packed and its not economical to put a subway everywhere.

buses should be local feeders and distributors in urban areas serving a dense trunk urban rail network like tokyo or seoul.

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In comparison, commuter rail lines cover fewer people and fewer places of interest.
The technology has nothing to do how much people or places of interest it covers, its the alignment. The Yamanote line covers a lot of people with lots of places of interest. While Kunming Metro line 6 is currently (temporarily) the most useless subway line on earth.
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Old September 26th, 2012, 02:56 AM   #4935
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New 25T train debut on Guangzhou-Shijiazhuang route (Aug 2012)

There's very cool video on Guangzhou-Shijiazhuang T89



from weibo and baiu

Yeah.. whoever made that video is in love with trains, such a romantic clip
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Old September 28th, 2012, 04:29 AM   #4936
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The new 160 km/h locomotives have been caught up close and personal on video, finally. Enjoy

HXD1D:



HXD3D:
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Old September 28th, 2012, 10:42 AM   #4937
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That's really cool, they can certainly use the 160km/h loco for freight trains carrying express parcels.
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Old September 28th, 2012, 11:00 AM   #4938
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9.28 Jinshan Rail, (aka Shanhai Metro Line 22) opens today

The 56km line 22 is Shanghai's first commuter rail.







(weibo.com)
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Old September 28th, 2012, 04:50 PM   #4939
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Haha who are those rebels that turned their seat towards the window?
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Old September 28th, 2012, 06:01 PM   #4940
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The recent improvements in China's railway system is impressive. They seem to be upgrading everything.
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