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Old March 10th, 2013, 08:23 PM   #5221
hkskyline
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Originally Posted by big-dog View Post
yes. per MOR minister Sheng the future rail fare will be made accordng to the market by the new founded railway corporation.

I guess the ticket price will be a floating one and tickets will be easier to get in hot seasons.
I take that as prices will only go up, not down.

No capacity increase is capable of handling high-season "golden week"-type travel.
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Old March 10th, 2013, 08:36 PM   #5222
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Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
I take that as prices will only go up, not down.

No capacity increase is capable of handling high-season "golden week"-type travel.
Why? I think this has already been discussed and there is no rationale behind such claims. The example of Spain suggests that prices actually can go down as it happened there. New Year travel season is an exception and it can be handled in a different manner. Capacity is increasing too which means that inevitably there will be (and already is in some cases) spare capacity which is not being utilized.

There is absolutely no way that introducing some fare flexibility and efficiency would make things worse or more expensive. All it will take is to adjust some habits. Pretty much what happened with aviation over the past 10 years or so. Flisghts have never been as affordable as they are now and this is due to fare flexibility which work according to market demand and is able to adjust to it quite rapidly. Same can work for trains and already does in many cases (not yet in China though).
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Old March 10th, 2013, 09:11 PM   #5223
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Probably, new China Railway Corporation will be one of the biggest companies in the world.
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Old March 10th, 2013, 09:15 PM   #5224
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Probably, new China Railway Corporation will be one of the biggest companies in the world.
In terms of asset value it should be pretty big. Any idea what it could be?
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Old March 10th, 2013, 10:09 PM   #5225
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Why? I think this has already been discussed and there is no rationale behind such claims. The example of Spain suggests that prices actually can go down as it happened there. New Year travel season is an exception and it can be handled in a different manner. Capacity is increasing too which means that inevitably there will be (and already is in some cases) spare capacity which is not being utilized.

There is absolutely no way that introducing some fare flexibility and efficiency would make things worse or more expensive. All it will take is to adjust some habits. Pretty much what happened with aviation over the past 10 years or so. Flisghts have never been as affordable as they are now and this is due to fare flexibility which work according to market demand and is able to adjust to it quite rapidly. Same can work for trains and already does in many cases (not yet in China though).
I guess we'll have to wait and see, I agree with HKSkyline that prices will likely take a significant hike. Especially during the CNY where the government will have to intervene to freeze the price, otherwise price will go up so much due to demand that lots of migrant worker will simply not be able to afford a ticket. The ticket price drop in aviation is a reflection of global trend and the fact that capacity has been added significantly and operational cost is constantly going down. It also faces strong competition from alternative means of travel such as highways and HSR. As many have demonstrated here railway ticket price hasn't been rising in China for the past decade, considering the rate of inflation rail travel is actually getting cheaper by the year. The newly formed corporation will likely become public like many other state owned companies, and will strive for profit. The current network operates as a public service with its primary goal to serve the Chinese economy, not making profit. Much like metro operators around Chinese cities, MOR's losses are understandable and expected, can you imagine if metro companies making ticket prices flexible? Sure it will help with the balance sheet but it defeats the fundamental purpose of these mass transit systems.
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Old March 10th, 2013, 10:39 PM   #5226
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Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
I guess we'll have to wait and see, I agree with HKSkyline that prices will likely take a significant hike. Especially during the CNY where the government will have to intervene to freeze the price, otherwise price will go up so much due to demand that lots of migrant worker will simply not be able to afford a ticket. The ticket price drop in aviation is a reflection of global trend and the fact that capacity has been added significantly and operational cost is constantly going down. It also faces strong competition from alternative means of travel such as highways and HSR. As many have demonstrated here railway ticket price hasn't been rising in China for the past decade, considering the rate of inflation rail travel is actually getting cheaper by the year. The newly formed corporation will likely become public like many other state owned companies, and will strive for profit. The current network operates as a public service with its primary goal to serve the Chinese economy, not making profit. Much like metro operators around Chinese cities, MOR's losses are understandable and expected, can you imagine if metro companies making ticket prices flexible? Sure it will help with the balance sheet but it defeats the fundamental purpose of these mass transit systems.

True. However there has to be some balance. If cheap trains are so vital to the economy why not make them free altogether? That would benefit the economy, right? Or would it?

Transport is not meant to be free and neither a social utility for the poor. It has to go in line with rational and sustainable urban development and development of alternative means of transport which all should come into an equilibrium of what is affordable, beneficial to the wider economy and profitable. China has got excellent conditions for that. And this is why:

- China already has (and continues to improve very fast) world-class road and expressway network.
- World-class airports and airline companies
- World-class HSR and conventional railway systems
- World-class urban public transit systems
- Rational and contemporary urban development policies which allow to locate large numbers of the population in fairly compact areas not far from their workplace.

All of that is either already in place or will be in place very soon.

China is one of very few countries in the world which possesses all of those attributes and therefore it is unreasonable to say that introducing more flexibility will make things worse. It won't.

All of that (and perhaps some other factors? Did I miss anything?) is a good indicator that there won't be suppressed demand problem in China as is the case in some other countries (such as UK where infrastructure is inadequate and demand is 'regulated' by simply making the use of it more expensive be it railways, urban public transit or roads).

In other words China has (or will soon have) massive amounts of capacity in ALL areas of transportation which means they will be able to compete among themselves without exceeding capacity and so give good value for money, otimum use of the infrastructure and healthy competition which all in all will benefit everyone.

I think this is rational. What is NOT rational is subsidizing one area (e.g. railways) which distorts the competition and creates obstacles for other means of transport. The excuse that poor (are they really THAT poor?) migrant workers will have to pay more for their holiday trips is not a good excuse. They are used to dirt-cheap fares which will probably have to change. And if the government won't be keen of that they can simply make an exception for the holiday-season trips and leave them at the 'dirt-cheap' level. Or even free if they feel like it. However in real life conditions there is absolutely no rationale to do that (i.e. leave the current system).

Last edited by Pansori; March 10th, 2013 at 10:45 PM.
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Old March 11th, 2013, 08:02 AM   #5227
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You have made some good points, especially about subsidizing one mode of transportation to make it more competitive than other, market driven means. But I still think China's infrastructure is still inadequate compare to demand, and for many people railway's subsidized prices made it the only affordable means of transportation. Sure migrant workers can afford to take a more expensive train, but they may feel that the increasing transportation cost will no longer justifying getting a job in Dongguan, they might as well stay home and find a job that pays less but also closer to home. The consequences of such thoughts will be shortage of workers in coastal regions, hampering their economic developments. Multinationals sure could choose to build factories in more inland cities, but if they have to invest in such scale of infrastructure buildup anyway they might as well move to countries with even cheaper labor cost.
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Old March 11th, 2013, 09:36 AM   #5228
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Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
I guess we'll have to wait and see, I agree with HKSkyline that prices will likely take a significant hike. Especially during the CNY where the government will have to intervene to freeze the price, otherwise price will go up so much due to demand that lots of migrant worker will simply not be able to afford a ticket.
How are the L trains possible now?

They are only slightly slower than the regular number and K trains, but about half the price in the same classes.

I can see a source for the space on railways. At New Year, there is less freight available because the factories close due to workers leaving, and of the freight which could be available, the durable goods can wait.

But where are passenger trains and crews found to serve L trains?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
The newly formed corporation will likely become public like many other state owned companies, and will strive for profit. The current network operates as a public service with its primary goal to serve the Chinese economy, not making profit. Much like metro operators around Chinese cities, MOR's losses are understandable and expected, can you imagine if metro companies making ticket prices flexible? Sure it will help with the balance sheet but it defeats the fundamental purpose of these mass transit systems.
Should the Ministry of Transport start expressly subsidizing certain types of services, and get from the Railway Corporation express price estimate? Like, the Ministry is chartering so and so many L trains, selling them to migrants at such and such price, paying the Corporation so and so much to include hard seat cars in number, K, T and Z trains, etc.?
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Old March 11th, 2013, 10:18 AM   #5229
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Fire

By dawei2012 (published on Feb 26, 2013)



and Ice

By dawei2012 (uploaded on Jan 31, 2012)
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Old March 11th, 2013, 06:29 PM   #5230
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China to wrap up Tibet railway extension line

BEIJING, March 8 (Xinhua) -- China will soon finish building an extension line of the Qinghai-Tibet Railway to link Lhasa to Xigaze, the second largest city in southwestern Tibet Autonomous Region, chairman of the Tibet regional government Losang Jamcan said Friday.

"Hopefully, the Lhasa-Xigaze rail line will be completed at the end of this year or the beginning of 2014," Losang Jamcan said in a group discussion of the government work report at the parliament's annual session, which opened in Beijing Tuesday.

He said the completion of the project would facilitate the development of an ecological tourism zone that covers Lhasa, Xigaze and Nyingchi cities.

China began the construction of the 253-km line from Tibet's capital Lhasa to Xigaze in September 2010.

Stretching through five counties as well as over the 90-km long Yarlung Zangbo Grand Canyon, the line is expected to bring rail line for the first time to the southwestern parts of Tibet, which now rely solely on roads for transport.

This is the first extension of the Qinghai-Tibet Railway that opened in July 2006.

The Lhasa-Xigaze railway, with a budget of 13.3 billion yuan (about 2.1 billion U.S. dollars), is capable of transporting 8.3 million tonnes of cargo every year, according to previous reports.

In building the new line, engineers have designed route detour around nature reserves and drinking water sources to better protect the fragile plateau environment.

Losang Jamcan said Tibet will continue to boost infrastructure construction to bring out the potential for tourism while protect the ecological environment in the region.

Tibet received 11 million domestic and overseas visitors last year, bringing in a total tourism revenue of 13.2 billion yuan (2.1 billion U.S. dollars), data from the regional government showed.

Xigaze, with a history of more than 600 years, is Tibet's second largest city and the traditional seat of the Panchen Lama.

Xigaze City is the administrative center of the Tibetan prefecture of the same name, a 182,000 square km area that borders India, Nepal and Bhutan. It is also famous for Qomolangma (known as Mount Everest in the West), which rises up from within it.
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Old March 11th, 2013, 07:27 PM   #5231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
How are the L trains possible now?

They are only slightly slower than the regular number and K trains, but about half the price in the same classes.

I can see a source for the space on railways. At New Year, there is less freight available because the factories close due to workers leaving, and of the freight which could be available, the durable goods can wait.

But where are passenger trains and crews found to serve L trains?

Should the Ministry of Transport start expressly subsidizing certain types of services, and get from the Railway Corporation express price estimate? Like, the Ministry is chartering so and so many L trains, selling them to migrants at such and such price, paying the Corporation so and so much to include hard seat cars in number, K, T and Z trains, etc.?
The L trains will continue because demand will still outpace supply even with increased prices, a lot of L trains are formed from short haul intercity services between eastern cities, and many are tourism trains that normally serve popular vacation destinations. I think the National Railway Bureau will still regulate prices to an extend during CNY, and subsidizing the corporation is a way to suppress price hikes and organize L trains. The same thing happens with all the airlines during Chunyun.
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Old March 12th, 2013, 04:33 AM   #5232
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Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
As impressive as the network is, it's still no where near Sun Yat Sen's original plan...



Hopefully the new Rail Corp. will not disappoint. As much as we complain about rail ministry, it did a hell of a good job at building out infrastructure.
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Old March 12th, 2013, 12:18 PM   #5233
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OT - thank you for sharing the map with us Luhai. Interesting - some islands on the East China Sea are not colored in light yellow color and the border on the McMahon Line is not recognized yet. What year is this map from?
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Old March 12th, 2013, 12:54 PM   #5234
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OT - thank you for sharing the map with us Luhai. Interesting - some islands on the East China Sea are not colored in light yellow color and the border on the McMahon Line is not recognized yet. What year is this map from?
Most likely soon after 1911, the formation of the Republic of China.
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Old March 12th, 2013, 01:07 PM   #5235
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Most likely soon after 1911, the formation of the Republic of China.
Sun Yatsen lived till 1925. So when did he write this map?
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Old March 14th, 2013, 06:05 AM   #5236
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Originally Posted by gdolniak View Post
OT - thank you for sharing the map with us Luhai. Interesting - some islands on the East China Sea are not colored in light yellow color and the border on the McMahon Line is not recognized yet. What year is this map from?
Way off topics here...
The plan was from 1913-1914, though the map may be from much later. As it seems to be from a history book of sorts. (Since Russia is referred to as Soviet Union in the map, which is post 1917 or more precisely, post 1922 when the Reds decisively won) Also note the Chinese-Burmese border is unmarked and China had a narrow strip of land to the Sea of Japan. In addition to Thailand been refereed to as Siam and Vietnam as Annam. (Which indicate pre ~1947) However, India, Nepal, Burma are refereed to as independent states rather than part of the British Empire. (Which indicate post ~1947)

If post-1947, RoC map should look like this. Which I believe is still produced on the island of Taiwan.

Last edited by luhai; March 14th, 2013 at 06:28 AM.
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Old March 14th, 2013, 07:45 AM   #5237
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its shows Bangladesh as independent country so it is "post 1971 map" or most recent one
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Old March 15th, 2013, 06:07 AM   #5238
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In terms of asset value it should be pretty big. Any idea what it could be?
1.04 trillion yuan ($165.73 billion)

Quote:
China launches new State-owned railway corporation

Updated: 2013-03-15 10:10

(Xinhua)

BEIJING -- The Chinese government has approved the establishment of China Railway Corporation to perform the commercial functions of the defunct Ministry of Railways as part of the cabinet restructuring plan.

The planned corporation, with a registered capital of 1.04 trillion yuan ($165.73 billion), will be a wholly State-owned enterprise administered by the central government and supervised by the Ministry of Transport and the future State Railways Administration (SRA), according to a statement posted on the government website.

... ...
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Old March 15th, 2013, 07:57 AM   #5239
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Assets value should be more, imho. Registered capital is different than assets value. Only train sets it has can be more than Also it depends how they define the "assets". Do train stations count? Apparently, this corporation will be responsible for the building of infrastructure too so that alone is a huge business.

Last edited by foxmulder; March 15th, 2013 at 06:35 PM.
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Old March 15th, 2013, 08:08 AM   #5240
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its shows Bangladesh as independent country so it is "post 1971 map" or most recent one
Are you talking about the first map or the second map? The first map should be soon after 1911, after the formation of the Republic of China.
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