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Old September 30th, 2009, 05:28 AM   #1741
ANR
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Bombardier bags major railway deal

By Li Xiang (China Daily)
Updated: 2009-09-30

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Bombardier’s share of the contract is estimated at 13.5 billion yuan. [China Daily]

China South Locomotive and Rolling Stock Corp (CSR) said yesterday that two of its affiliates have won contracts valued at 72.4 billion yuan from the Ministry of Railways. Subsidiary CSR Bombardier Sifang (Qingdao) Transportation Ltd, a joint venture of Canadian train maker Bombardier and CSR Sifang Locomotive and Rolling Stock Ltd, signed a 27.4 billion yuan contract with the Shanghai Railway Bureau, under which the company will build 80 high-speed trains. The order for Bombardier Sifang's trains, which has a maximum operating speed of 380 kilometers per hour, consists of 1,120 cars. The first train is scheduled for delivery in 2012 with final deliveries expected in 2014, the company said. Bombardier's share of the contract is estimated at 13.5 billion yuan. The deal includes 20 eight-car trainsets and 60 sixteen-car trainsets based on Bombardier's next-generation ZEFIRO high-speed rail technology. The trains will be manufactured in Qingdao, Shandong province. Similarly, subsidiary CSR Qingdao Sifang Locomotive and Rolling Stock Ltd also secured a 45-billion yuan deal yesterday from the Wuhan Railway Bureau to build high-speed trains for the country.

"The 72.4-billion yuan deal is consistent with market expectations," said Yu Aibin, an analyst at Guosen Securities. "The volume is actually a bit smaller than we expected so we'll see more deals signed in the future but they are not going to be as big as this one." "This is an important win for Bombardier as it increases the company's share in the high-speed rail market segment," Cameron Doerksen, a Montreal-based analyst with Versant Partners, was quoted by Bloomberg as saying.

Established in 1998, the Bombardier Sifang joint venture has delivered more than 1,000 passenger rail cars into China since its inception, including a range of high-speed trains and high-grade passenger coaches. In 2007, the company won a $1.5-billion contract from the Ministry of Railways, the largest single order for rail passenger cars in China. "We are very pleased to be delivering leading-edge very high speed rail technology through Chinese expertise and resources. This illustrates the strategic importance of delivering the most advanced rail technology for China from within China," said Pierre Beaudoin, Bombardier's CEO in the company's statement.
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Old September 30th, 2009, 11:32 PM   #1742
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I'm wondering if China has any domestic technology currently in use for its HSR network. Last I heard there were some experimental runs - does anyone have any info on this?
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Old October 1st, 2009, 04:43 PM   #1743
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Quote:
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I'm wondering if China has any domestic technology currently in use for its HSR network. Last I heard there were some experimental runs - does anyone have any info on this?
LOL, they'll just reverse engineer the trains they've acquired and come up with a cheap clone, just like they've done with everything else.
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Old October 1st, 2009, 07:23 PM   #1744
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well there's actually nothing wrong with that

France sold trains to Korea. Korea is now selling trains to Turkey. Turkey could sell trains to Qatar or Saudi someday?

There's no good reason to reinvent the wheel. This is something I've been saying about projects in the US where we need to buy cheap off the shelf trains from overseas then make our own versions. Everytime we tried to do something original through a government run program like defense conversions in the 1970s and the Boston LRV's, it wasn't as good as the product created by competitive industrial firms like Bombardier.
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Old October 2nd, 2009, 03:33 AM   #1745
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China's 1st railway involving private fund starts construction

(Xinhua)
Updated: 2009-10-01

China's first railway involving private fund starts construction in north China's Shanxi province on Monday.

The railway, linking Jiafeng township and Nanchenpu of Jincheng city, stretches 64.29 kilometers. The railway winds through three counties and has six stops, according to local authorities. It is expected to cost 2.3 billion yuan ($340 million), and will be finished in three years. The railway was co-funded by the Broad Union Investment Management Group Co Ltd, the Yufeng Railway Construction Investment Co Ltd and the Railway Bureau of Zhengzhou.

Jincheng is a major coal producing area in China's coal-rich Shanxi province. It is hoped the railway will become an important route to aid building a resource base.

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Old October 2nd, 2009, 07:05 PM   #1746
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaphod View Post
well there's actually nothing wrong with that

France sold trains to Korea. Korea is now selling trains to Turkey. Turkey could sell trains to Qatar or Saudi someday?

There's no good reason to reinvent the wheel. This is something I've been saying about projects in the US where we need to buy cheap off the shelf trains from overseas then make our own versions. Everytime we tried to do something original through a government run program like defense conversions in the 1970s and the Boston LRV's, it wasn't as good as the product created by competitive industrial firms like Bombardier.
It is one thing to buy foreign technology and know-how and then use it when developing a domestic project like the Koreans did with the KTX. It is another thing to buy a foreign product and then re brand it as your own like the Chinese did with the Alstom pendolino 600 series.
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Old October 2nd, 2009, 07:41 PM   #1747
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I have serious doubts about 380 kph

And here is why:
- there is NO train controll system currently that can safely operate trains ABOVE 320 kph, ETCS is the only one that even has a hope and it doesnt even work on the "350" Beijing-Tianjin. i have serious doubts that they actually do this and if they do then they do it without a controll system which means less frequency
- 380 kph would require +103 % energy (cost) compared to running at 300 kph, +67 % compared to 320 kph and +31 % (almost a third) compared to running at 350 kph. as a result the ticked would be twice, two thirds or one third more expensive
- not the chinese, nor bombardier have demonstrated their OWN design anywhere near these speeds
- a train running at 380 kph has to be able to operate SAFELY for LONG distances at +10% more speed, so in fact the design speed would be 418 kph!!!
- there is noone else even attempting this because there are more pressing issues for the japanese/europeans, such as: noise emissions, aerodynamics vs cost, train controll systems etc.


to do this sort of a leapfrog within 2-4 years is something I just dont believe possible

the chinese regime has claimed a lot of things and this just smells like one of their exagerrations

still i dont want to belittle their efforts, i mean thousands of kilometres of 320-350 kph is awesome and i'm sure its only a matter of time to go to 380
but its more like a decade imho
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Old October 3rd, 2009, 01:38 AM   #1748
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they are testing the 500km/h train soon, 380km/h should be easy. Remember, no one believed that China would have the fastest high speed train already at 350km/h, and is a similar situation now. If anyone can work miracles with high-speed trains, it's the Chinese
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Old October 3rd, 2009, 11:40 AM   #1749
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Quote:
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they are testing the 500km/h train soon, 380km/h should be easy. Remember, no one believed that China would have the fastest high speed train already at 350km/h, and is a similar situation now. If anyone can work miracles with high-speed trains, it's the Chinese
what 500 km/h train? what testing?

the french run over 570 km/h tests, but the AGV will NOT be even 380, it will be 360 and thats not coming before 2012

which model of which independent chinese manufacturer is going to run these tests
and even if they do, this is bombardier we are talking about and they have not produced anything close to this speed

as for already running at 350, maybe they did during the olympics but i seriously doubt that they do now because they installed ETCS on the Beijing-Tianjin and ETCS is still not capable of handling trafic at those speeds which means less safety (and is the main reason why Barcelona-Madrid is not going at this speed either, even though they could), so the only way to do this is to start trains so rarely that they can stop no matter what. but thats not very economical
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Old October 3rd, 2009, 11:45 AM   #1750
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There is a 350 kph limit with ERTMS/ETCS level2 only for safety reasons. But the ERTMS/ETCS level2 system allows speeds up to 400 kph.
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Old October 3rd, 2009, 11:59 AM   #1751
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LUCAFUSAR View Post
There is a 350 kph limit with ERTMS/ETCS level2 only for safety reasons. But the ERTMS/ETCS level2 system allows speeds up to 400 kph.
Beijing-Tianjin is Level 1

Level 2 is intended to to that but nowhere on earth do they do that right now
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Old October 3rd, 2009, 12:07 PM   #1752
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Wrong. All the Italian TAV network works with the ERTMS/ETCS 2 level. And not only the TAV network, as you'll can see here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ERTMS

And on the Beijing/Tianjin the CRH3 runs at over 330 kph. On the LGV/Est TGVs run at over 320 kph. On the Rome/Naples ETR500 run at over 310 kph. The same the Velaro/E on the MAD/BCN.
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Old October 3rd, 2009, 02:04 PM   #1753
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Gramercy seems to be right, nowhere the ETCS 2 is working at speeds close to 400 kph (there's a big difference between 350 and 400), and all of the italian TAV network works with ERTMS 2, but just the Rome-Naples stretch has ETCS 2, and that's at 310 kph, as said.
That said, I still believe the Chinese could soon come up with a control system that's as good as the Euro one, and who knows, they might be able (if even with a slightly inferior safety level) to reach higher speeds.
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Old October 3rd, 2009, 03:19 PM   #1754
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Ehm...the TGV Est runs at over 320...but the capabilities of the system is up to 400 kph...I know that the maximum speeds currently are 310-330 kph...but the speed limits will be upgraded in next years...
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Old October 3rd, 2009, 04:55 PM   #1755
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LUCAFUSAR View Post
Ehm...the TGV Est runs at over 320...but the capabilities of the system is up to 400 kph...I know that the maximum speeds currently are 310-330 kph...but the speed limits will be upgraded in next years...
Do you know the meaning of the words "right now"? If so, can you explain me what is "wrong", nay, " wrong", in Gramercy's proposition?
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Old October 3rd, 2009, 05:15 PM   #1756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peloso View Post
Do you know the meaning of the words "right now"? If so, can you explain me what is "wrong", nay, " wrong", in Gramercy's proposition?
Sorry, but there is a misunderstanding. I am talking about the 350 kph limit. I only said that there are many examples where the system is working OVER 310/335 Kph, so UNDER the 350 kph limit (that's a limit due to safety reasons, because the system capabilities are way higher), and with ERTMS2 trains can run at over 400 kph, and with levels 3 and 4 also with shortened intervals between one train and another. However I referred to 400 kph limit ONLY to explain ERTMS capabilities. Maybe I explained the matter in a bad way. Maybe.
P.S.: on the CRH network there'll be the ERTMS safety systems.

Last edited by LUCAFUSAR; October 3rd, 2009 at 05:49 PM.
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Old October 3rd, 2009, 05:27 PM   #1757
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All right.

We established (?) that ETCS 2 can theoretically handle 380 but it doesn't do that right now anywhere, in fact it doesn't even do 350 kph in regular timetable.
We also established that the Beijing-Tianjin only has ETCS 1, so the chinese right now are not even able to experiment with ETCS 2 and scheduled trains.

Based on this I seriously doubt that within 2-3 years the chinese will have a controll system not only theoretically allowing 380 (418...), but doing that in a regular timetable. Lets say they install ETCS 2 on these long lines. What makes you believe they will be able to make it work if neither the french, nor the spanish nor the italians can make it work today, 3 years before this supertrain is supposed to work in china.

If you look at recent introductions (Switzerland for example) it usually takes 1-3 years to set the system up, test it test it test it, then test it some more, and then make it handle trains....at 200-250 kph...in Switzerland!
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Old October 3rd, 2009, 06:09 PM   #1758
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gramercy, you have to know that originally the Madrid/Barcelona was inteneded to run at 350 kph with ERTMS2. In fact a SERIAL Velaro E was able to reach 404 kph on MAD/BCN with ERTMS2. Now, this line works at 300/310 kph due to the air turbulence that causes loose stones to be picked up and thrown at quite dangerous speeds (in fact the new chinese lines don't use loose stone ballast so there isn't this problem - everything is solod concrete, which is more expensive in theory. In fact the CRH3 runs over 335 kph), but THEORETICALLY is ALREADY capable to reach the speed of 350 kph. In France is the same, they did test with TGV Duplex at 360 kph...i heard of rumors about SNCF asked RFF to increase the speed limit from 300 (or 320 on the LGV/Est) to 360 kph...In Italy a 350 kph limit is antieconomical because of the short TAV lines interrupted by urban sections with their speed reductions stretches.

Last edited by LUCAFUSAR; October 3rd, 2009 at 06:22 PM.
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Old October 3rd, 2009, 06:27 PM   #1759
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in any case I'm pretty confident that the chinese will take the lead soon, but i just dont believe this will happen by 2012, not even by 2014

and I think only the Velaro and the Talgo something and the future AGV are near these speeds, so what Bombardier can do in just 3 years by 2012 is beyond me
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Old October 3rd, 2009, 07:49 PM   #1760
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LUCAFUSAR View Post
gramercy, you have to know that originally the Madrid/Barcelona was inteneded to run at 350 kph with ERTMS2. In fact a SERIAL Velaro E was able to reach 404 kph on MAD/BCN with ERTMS2. Now, this line works at 300/310 kph due to the air turbulence that causes loose stones to be picked up and thrown at quite dangerous speeds (in fact the new chinese lines don't use loose stone ballast so there isn't this problem - everything is solod concrete, which is more expensive in theory. In fact the CRH3 runs over 335 kph), but THEORETICALLY is ALREADY capable to reach the speed of 350 kph. In France is the same, they did test with TGV Duplex at 360 kph...i heard of rumors about SNCF asked RFF to increase the speed limit from 300 (or 320 on the LGV/Est) to 360 kph...In Italy a 350 kph limit is antieconomical because of the short TAV lines interrupted by urban sections with their speed reductions stretches.
Ehm, what the hell are you talking about?

Madrid-Barcelona is still intended to run at 350 km/h with ERTMS level 2.

ERTMS level 2 is not installed on the line yet because of technical problems. The 404 km/h run was done with ERTMS level 1. The 300 km/h limit in that line has nothing to do with ERTMS 1 which can be used for 350, 400 km/h or even 500 km/h if you like, but because they built the system with ERTMS 2 in mind from day one, to equip the line with ERTMS level 1 with specs for 350km/h would have been a waste of money.

The flying stones have no implications for the speed restrictions but is a cost/maintenance problem for the operator, ADIF has already aproved 350 km/h commercial traffic, once level 2 is installed it is up to the operator to decide how fast they want to run their trains.
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