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Old October 3rd, 2009, 10:43 PM   #1761
LUCAFUSAR
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What the hell are YOU speakin' about.
1)MAD/BCN was (is) intended to run at 350 kph with ERTMS2, but they keep the 300 kph limit due to technical problems with ERTMS2, so they continue to use to ERTMS1. But there are problems also with the flying ballast...as you said it's a maintenance problem...that generates more costs. However check out here:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=669754

post number 5 in particular.

2)Sorry, i didn't know the Velaro E record was reached with ERTMS1.

3)The ERTMS1 allows over 350 kph but with a relatively small capacity i.e. big distances between a train and another (and, obvious, adapting it to the 350 kph limit is a waste of money, O.K.). The ERTMS2 (theoretically) allows over 500 kph with a higher capacity of the line...and the ERTMS3 and 4 will increase more the capacity of the HS lines. That's the reason because ERTMS2 has been chosen for the MAD/BCN (and also because of the future Talgo380...).
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Old October 3rd, 2009, 10:44 PM   #1762
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
in any case I'm pretty confident that the chinese will take the lead soon, but i just dont believe this will happen by 2012, not even by 2014

and I think only the Velaro and the Talgo something and the future AGV are near these speeds, so what Bombardier can do in just 3 years by 2012 is beyond me
I agree.
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Old October 4th, 2009, 12:53 AM   #1763
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
what 500 km/h train? what testing?

the french run over 570 km/h tests, but the AGV will NOT be even 380, it will be 360 and thats not coming before 2012

which model of which independent chinese manufacturer is going to run these tests
and even if they do, this is bombardier we are talking about and they have not produced anything close to this speed

as for already running at 350, maybe they did during the olympics but i seriously doubt that they do now because they installed ETCS on the Beijing-Tianjin and ETCS is still not capable of handling trafic at those speeds which means less safety (and is the main reason why Barcelona-Madrid is not going at this speed either, even though they could), so the only way to do this is to start trains so rarely that they can stop no matter what. but thats not very economical
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=1555
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Old October 4th, 2009, 02:26 AM   #1764
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbaricManchurian View Post
aham,

well let me quote from that post

Quote:
In a breakthrough, China has developed trains that can run on both high-speed and normal lines, said railway official Zhang Shuguang.
really, thats a breakthrough?...


fine, do the 500 kph test

but then I shall remind you that the french tested 574.8 kph...2 years ago...

so make that 600 kph before I get excited...
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Old October 4th, 2009, 04:15 AM   #1765
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New lines that are being built right now can handle 350-380km/hr service speeds. They are full concrete and elevated. They dont have the problems in France or Spain. So they will do it. They will do it really soon. You will see.
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Old October 4th, 2009, 06:57 AM   #1766
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Chinese railway pics

Near Dongting lake, Yueyang, Hunan Province



Shengshui Temple, Mianyang, Sichuan Province. Taken 7/12/2009



Tianjin



On Harbin-Jiamusi Rail, Heilongjiang province



Huanggutun, Shenyang, Liaoning Province



(hasea.com)
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Old October 4th, 2009, 08:36 AM   #1767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
really, thats a breakthrough?...


fine, do the 500 kph test

but then I shall remind you that the french tested 574.8 kph...2 years ago...

so make that 600 kph before I get excited...
Gramercy, apparently a train that can run on both kinds of lines is an important breaktrough for the Chinese. You can't expect them to immediately take the lead in all fields. Anyway high speed railways are no car racing, and I believe the Chinese are aiming at practicality, not at beating records. Rest assured, the beat-the-record syndrome affects the Europeans more than the Chinese, notwithstanding them building all those mega-structures. The only difference is we can't afford it.
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Old October 4th, 2009, 02:39 PM   #1768
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peloso View Post
Anyway high speed railways are no car racing, and I believe the Chinese are aiming at practicality, not at beating records. Rest assured, the beat-the-record syndrome affects the Europeans more than the Chinese, notwithstanding them building all those mega-structures. The only difference is we can't afford it.
Beating the records syndrome is not really about beating records per say. It's to evaluate new technology and then boast with it in front of potential buyers. It's a real commercial argument as well as a technological one.

In France tests were also conducted to see how trains, passengers and rails will support a 360kph HST.
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Old October 4th, 2009, 08:05 PM   #1769
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peloso View Post
Gramercy, apparently a train that can run on both kinds of lines is an important breaktrough for the Chinese. You can't expect them to immediately take the lead in all fields. Anyway high speed railways are no car racing, and I believe the Chinese are aiming at practicality, not at beating records. Rest assured, the beat-the-record syndrome affects the Europeans more than the Chinese, notwithstanding them building all those mega-structures. The only difference is we can't afford it.
And of course, TGV trainsets also use the same technical standards (track gauge, electrical power, etc) as the rest of the French and most other European railroads, so if their own dedicated high-speed line trackage is down for any reason, they can cross over to other normal lines and continue on at slower speeds.

Mike
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Old October 4th, 2009, 08:10 PM   #1770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgk920 View Post
And of course, TGV trainsets also use the same technical standards (track gauge, electrical power, etc) as the rest of the French and most other European railroads, so if their own dedicated high-speed line trackage is down for any reason, they can cross over to other normal lines and continue on at slower speeds.

Mike
just like they've been doing it for decades now

so why is this a "breakthrough" for the chinese?

..cause the propagandists exaggerate
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Old October 5th, 2009, 11:39 AM   #1771
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disturbman View Post
Beating the records syndrome is not really about beating records per say. It's to evaluate new technology and then boast with it in front of potential buyers. It's a real commercial argument as well as a technological one.

In France tests were also conducted to see how trains, passengers and rails will support a 360kph HST.
No new technologies were used during the 574 kph record. It was like tuning a race car. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV_world_speed_record
So it was for "boasting", yes. Besides, I don't think a 574 kph test can help in improving a train that has to run 350 kph on a regular basis. That's why this whole discussion has no connection whatsoever with Chinese railways and their current development, and citing the French tests doesn't make sense.
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Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
just like they've been doing it for decades now

so why is this a "breakthrough" for the chinese?

..cause the propagandists exaggerate
Why can't it be a breakthrough for the Chinese if the French already did it? Ok, I give up
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Last edited by Peloso; October 5th, 2009 at 11:51 AM.
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Old October 5th, 2009, 01:37 PM   #1772
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peloso View Post
No new technologies were used during the 574 kph record. It was like tuning a race car. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV_world_speed_record
Did you read the article you linked or not? Because like I said, some new technologies were used to make this record. They used new motorized bogies (AGV technology) and new asynchronous motors that were to be used on POS TGVs. This were technologies that hadn't see comemrcial use. This was not a great leap forward but, none the less, it was used to check and validate some new technological choice and configurations. As well as accumulating data on very high speed.

The rest, aerodynamic preparation, is more like tuning like you said.
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Old October 6th, 2009, 09:12 PM   #1773
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is there any news on the Shanghai-Hangzhou maglev?
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Old October 7th, 2009, 08:04 AM   #1774
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
is there any news on the Shanghai-Hangzhou maglev?
forget about it, never gonna happen!
shanghai-hangzhou HSR currently underconstruction
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Old October 7th, 2009, 06:23 PM   #1775
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
is there any news on the Shanghai-Hangzhou maglev?
At best, the maglev will be extended to the Hongqiao Airport/HSR/urban rail intermodal hub. But even that is doubtful given the rampant NIMBYism involved. I won't be surprised if a future government then converts the maglev to regular HSR to permit through trains to Pudong.
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Old October 7th, 2009, 06:37 PM   #1776
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At best, the maglev will be extended to the Hongqiao Airport/HSR/urban rail intermodal hub. But even that is doubtful given the rampant NIMBYism involved. I won't be surprised if a future government then converts the maglev to regular HSR to permit through trains to Pudong.
wouldnt that be a shame...
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Old October 8th, 2009, 06:43 AM   #1777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
wouldnt that be a shame...
In my opinion, this is a great thing.

The Pudong line is universally panned as an expensive white elephant which has been losing huge sums of taxpayer money. The maglev will hopefully be a symbol for Communist Party bigwigs not to waste taxpayer yuan on "face projects" when there are cheaper alternatives and more pressing priorities. Besides, China is an authoritarian dictatorship, and if the Maglev is stopped by NIMBYism in China, this is proof that Maglev will not be accepted anywhere in the world. Other governments in the world will not waste time and money by considering Maglev.

Finally, the Chinese government wants Pudong airport to become *the* aviation hub for Eastern China and a major hub for the world. It will make a lot of sense to have direct, steel-on-wheel, high speed trains between Pudong Airport and cities in the Yangtze Delta: Hangzhou, Nanjing, Suzhou, and so on. Pudong becomes the global airport for nearly 100 million people!
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Old October 8th, 2009, 07:51 PM   #1778
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanfan89 View Post
In my opinion, this is a great thing.

The Pudong line is universally panned as an expensive white elephant which has been losing huge sums of taxpayer money. The maglev will hopefully be a symbol for Communist Party bigwigs not to waste taxpayer yuan on "face projects" when there are cheaper alternatives and more pressing priorities. Besides, China is an authoritarian dictatorship, and if the Maglev is stopped by NIMBYism in China, this is proof that Maglev will not be accepted anywhere in the world. Other governments in the world will not waste time and money by considering Maglev.

Finally, the Chinese government wants Pudong airport to become *the* aviation hub for Eastern China and a major hub for the world. It will make a lot of sense to have direct, steel-on-wheel, high speed trains between Pudong Airport and cities in the Yangtze Delta: Hangzhou, Nanjing, Suzhou, and so on. Pudong becomes the global airport for nearly 100 million people!
nice thougths on HSR linking cities to Pudong Airport, but probably is not feasiable.

Think hard thoughts about capital cost vs return, as well as travel patturns and preferences.

And the Maglev was never meant to make money, rather technological advancement and bragging rights. And in those, even without Transrapid's tech transfer, the Maglev was a huge success.
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Old October 8th, 2009, 08:01 PM   #1779
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I think it is history in its proposed form .It will be replaced either by one of these HSR's at 350 or if they are obssesed about maglev the new homemade maglev which is much cheaper and thus much slower (At 150kmph) would at best be implemented
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Old October 9th, 2009, 05:21 AM   #1780
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Investment is already done. I dont think it is that big of burden for Shanghai. Also, increased passenger number will decrease the burden. Also, I dont know whether it is losing money right now or not? Do any of you guys have any figures at all? Or just guessing??
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