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Old October 27th, 2009, 05:00 PM   #1821
big-dog
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Oct.2009

The newly opened Ningbo-Taizhou-Fuzhou CRH (Taizhou, Zhejiang province)





Shijiazhuang-Taiyuan CRH



(hasea.com)
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Old October 27th, 2009, 09:30 PM   #1822
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leo_sh View Post
Can CRH-2 sustain a speed of 350km/h? Kawasaki set a limit of 250km/h on the technology it transferred to Chinese.
The CRH-2C, which can reach 350km/h have a composition of

DT-M-M-M-M-M-M-DT.


Where as the original CRH-2A/E2-1000 have a composition of

DT-M-M-T-T-M-M-DT


DT = Control Trailer
M = Motor
T = Trailer
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Old October 27th, 2009, 09:32 PM   #1823
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Only running costs are relevant. Investment into building the railway is a sunk cost!
only if you're China. at least these days.
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Old October 28th, 2009, 04:35 AM   #1824
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China to buy bullet trains made with Kawasaki tech

By George Gao
From:Gasgoo.com
October 27, 2009

China's Ministry of Railways has signed a contract to buy from a Chinese train-maker 140 bullet trains that will be built with the technology of Kawasaki Heavy Industries Ltd. of Japan, Kyodo News reported today, citing insiders. In the 45 billion yuan ($6.6 billion) deal, China will buy the high-speed trains from Nanche Sifang Locomotive, which has a technology licensing agreement with Kawasaki Heavy, said sources familiar with the matter. The train can run at a top speed of 350 kilometers per hour.

The bullet trains will be manufactured using Kawasaki Heavy's technology for Hayate trains which run on the Tohoku Shinkansen Line in Japan.

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The Hayate bullet trains run on Japan's Tohoku Shinkansen line.

The new trains will run between Beijing and Shanghai and between Beijing and Guangzhou starting next year. Japanese railway-related manufacturers which produce motors, brakes and other railway parts are also expected to benefit from this multi-billion-dollar contract, the sources said.

Meanwhile, China has also placed orders to a Chinese train maker affiliated with Germany's Siemens AG and a joint venture set up by Canada's aircraft and train maker Bombardier Inc. and a Chinese company. China began high-speed train services on the line between Beijing and Tianjin last year and is building similar lines in other parts of the country.
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Old October 28th, 2009, 10:27 PM   #1825
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ANR View Post
The bullet trains will be manufactured using Kawasaki Heavy's technology for Hayate trains which run on the Tohoku Shinkansen Line in Japan.
To anyone in the know: under the terms of these technology transfer contracts, will the local partners in China have to pay Kawasaki, or Bombardier, or Siemens, any royalty for every train produced? Also, after the orders already placed are fulfilled, will Chinese firms be rightfully allowed to produce trains and parts without further obligation towards the copyright owners?
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Old October 29th, 2009, 12:22 AM   #1826
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Japanese trains usually are very conservative, are they not? In that they usually run 25% lower than their top speed? It's something like that, anyway.

Also remember that the 250km/h tagline was probably partly for optics. If they were seen as selling trains to China that "out of the box" run faster than those in Japan, it may cause negative feelings in public.

Of course, we know that's silly thinking, as China is building their network from scratch and has a completely different operating environment, but don't let facts get in the way...

If nothing else it shows that Japanese trains under promise, but over deliver. Well done.
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Old October 29th, 2009, 08:33 PM   #1827
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
Japanese trains usually are very conservative, are they not? In that they usually run 25% lower than their top speed? It's something like that, anyway.

Also remember that the 250km/h tagline was probably partly for optics. If they were seen as selling trains to China that "out of the box" run faster than those in Japan, it may cause negative feelings in public.

Of course, we know that's silly thinking, as China is building their network from scratch and has a completely different operating environment, but don't let facts get in the way...

If nothing else it shows that Japanese trains under promise, but over deliver. Well done.

what are you talking about?
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Old October 30th, 2009, 07:48 AM   #1828
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I think he meant, in Japan, because of older infrastructure trains cannot reach their full potential (top speed).
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Old October 30th, 2009, 08:07 PM   #1829
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UD2 View Post
what are you talking about?
What part wasn't clear?

This part? 1) usually run 25% lower than their top speed

They are scheduled to run slower than their maximum speed in order to allow any lost time to be made up. This keeps the trains on time.

I remember seeing 25% somewhere, but that may be the safety threshold that trains must attain ( operational vs. max safe speed )

this part? 2) optics?

About the 250km/h advertised speed, it wouldn't surprise me if Japan underpromises as it does not control the line.

Any accidents can be blamed on higher speeds that were "not recommended" allowing them to save face.

In addition, the issue of advertising the export of technology that allows trains to run faster in China than Japan may unsettle the nationalists in Japan. Thus the comment about optics.

this part? 3) underpromise/overdeliver
I thought that underpromise and overdeliver were pretty clear, but basically... they promise one performance level to be conservative, but the train can far exceed that in real life.

I realize that perhaps the post wasn't as clear as it could have been. Hope this helps.
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Old October 30th, 2009, 08:22 PM   #1830
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
I realize that perhaps the post wasn't as clear as it could have been. Hope this helps.
To me your post was pretty clear, and I agree too.
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Old October 30th, 2009, 08:35 PM   #1831
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Optics wasn't the best choice of word, as this has absolutely nothing to do with the physics of light.

(Public) image would have been better.
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Old October 31st, 2009, 04:52 AM   #1832
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Quote:
They are scheduled to run slower than their maximum speed in order to allow any lost time to be made up. This keeps the trains on time.
Perhaps, but I think the lower operational speeds are a result of line capacity constraints i.e. you can't have many 250km/h trains running on 3 or 5 minute headways.

Quote:
Any accidents can be blamed on higher speeds that were "not recommended" allowing them to save face.
Um, it's not an issue of "saving face", its just common worldwide business practice of manufacturers to avoid liability if a reckless railway operator runs a train above its recommended speed. Anyway, in Japan no shinkansen trains can run above designated safe line speeds, as the digital ATC system will apply brakes automatically should the driver overspeed.

Quote:
In addition, the issue of advertising the export of technology that allows trains to run faster in China than Japan may unsettle the nationalists in Japan. Thus the comment about optics.
Wow, I didn't know these nationalist boogeymen had such an influence on overseas rolling stock sales. Care to point out a documented source? Anyway, these wingnut emperor worshippers are even more fringe now that their LDP buddies are no longer in power after the recent national election.
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Old October 31st, 2009, 05:17 AM   #1833
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post
Um, it's not an issue of "saving face", its just common worldwide business practice of manufacturers to avoid liability if a reckless railway operator runs a train above its recommended speed.
This depends on the terms of the contract. Formally it isn't even the same train, in fact it's manufactured in Qingdao, not in Japan, so I don't know if there's any problem with liability, but actually there would be an issue of "saving face" since the train does, somehow, "come" from Japan. As for being "reckless", I think the Chinese railways' bosses know better than you and me, otherwise they wouldn't have signed a contract for 140 trains to have them run at 300 or more on a daily basis and risk to render them useless.
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Old November 1st, 2009, 02:01 PM   #1834
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I don't think 350km/h is unachievable for Kawasaki... considering that the Bombardier Joint venture has also recently signed a $4billion contract for 80 Zefiro trains with a maximum operating speed of 380km/h
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Old November 1st, 2009, 03:51 PM   #1835
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
What part wasn't clear?

This part? 1) usually run 25% lower than their top speed

They are scheduled to run slower than their maximum speed in order to allow any lost time to be made up. This keeps the trains on time.

I remember seeing 25% somewhere, but that may be the safety threshold that trains must attain ( operational vs. max safe speed )

this part? 2) optics?

About the 250km/h advertised speed, it wouldn't surprise me if Japan underpromises as it does not control the line.

Any accidents can be blamed on higher speeds that were "not recommended" allowing them to save faces.

In addition, the issue of advertising the export of technology that allows trains to run faster in China than Japan may unsettle the nationalists in Japan. Thus the comment about optics.

this part? 3) underpromise/overdeliver
I thought that underpromise and overdeliver were pretty clear, but basically... they promise one performance level to be conservative, but the train can far exceed that in real life.

I realize that perhaps the post wasn't as clear as it could have been. Hope this helps.
1. yes. all trains do that. sames reason why you don't drive your car to it's max speed. The rated operational speed of a train will always be lower than what's capable. That's common practice.

2. Japan didn't promise a 250km/h train. The tracks that the trains were designed to operate on only allowed for a maxium of 250km/h. And the same liability issues as was mentioned above.

3. This point is the same as the top 2 combined.

I was less confused about what you said then I was trying to figure out more on your train of thought before i gave my 2 cent.
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Old November 1st, 2009, 03:54 PM   #1836
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless View Post
I don't think 350km/h is unachievable for Kawasaki... considering that the Bombardier Joint venture has also recently signed a $4billion contract for 80 Zefiro trains with a maximum operating speed of 380km/h
It is. China, with the help of the original manufacture I presume, redesigned the E2-1000 with a DT-M-M-M-M-M-M-DT config that currently operates at 350km/h.

I don't think anybody is arguing that.
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Old November 4th, 2009, 12:06 PM   #1837
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Construction work of the second double track of the Lanzhou-Xinjiang Railway begins

Lanxin Railway Second Double Track

1776 km long, 31 stations
Speed: 200–250 km/h
Cost: CN¥143.5 billion (US$21 billion)
Construction begins: 2009 November 4
Completion: 2014
Minimum railway curve radium: 7000 meters
Maximum inclination: 12‰ for most of the route, 20‰ for difficult sections, 13‰ from Zhangye to Qumul

Lanzhou West - (Gansu-Qinghai border) - Xining - (Qinghai-Gansu border) Zhangye - Jiuquan - Jiayuguan - (Gansu-Xinjiang border) - Qumul - Turpan - Urumqi

795 km in Gansu, 268 km in Qinghai, 713 km in Xinjiang

Quote:
人民网北京11月4日电 (记者严冰)今天上午11时,兰新铁路第二双线建设动员大会在新疆乌鲁木齐市新建兰新铁路第二双线二宫火车站站址隆重举行,大会宣布兰新铁路第二双线开工建设。铁道部今天还透露,兰新铁路第二双线自兰州西站引出,经青海省西宁、甘肃省张掖、酒泉、嘉峪关、新疆维吾尔自治区哈密、吐鲁番,引入乌鲁木齐站,线路横跨新疆、甘肃、青海三省区,全长1776公里,共设31个车站。其中甘肃境内795公里,青海境内268公里,新疆境内713公里。线路为Ⅰ级双线,设计时速为200公里/小时,兰州至西宁段和哈密至乌鲁木齐段线下预留提速为250公里/小时。项目投资估算总额1435亿元,建设工期5年。届时,北京至乌鲁木齐将由现在的40小时缩短为12小时左右,列车可实现夕发朝至。

Last edited by yaohua2000; November 4th, 2009 at 12:14 PM.
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Old November 4th, 2009, 12:35 PM   #1838
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wow the silk railway!!
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Old November 4th, 2009, 01:30 PM   #1839
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great stuff

and based on google earth, the view will be awesome
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Old November 4th, 2009, 01:38 PM   #1840
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clkgtr View Post
Leading-edge BOMBARDIER ZEFIRO technology to feature maximum operating speeds of 380 kph

.....



.....
Nice design





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