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Old July 2nd, 2013, 10:31 PM   #661
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Originally Posted by cloud32 View Post
I think there needs to be a seperate thread discussing transport in Elephant and Castle...
I think the broader topic of the merits or not of driving in central London should be kept the flip out of this thread, but you can't discuss the wider regeneration of E&C without discussing the remodelling of the roads.

You won't reduce the traffic passing through E&C, but you certainly can drastically remodel the layout as was planned in the masterplan by removing the two huge roundabouts and filling in the pedestrian subways.

The latter certainly is happening... the subways of the southern roundabout (Walworth Road / Newington Butts) have been filled in and replaced by traffic lights and pedestrian crossings, and although not quite E&C, the subways of Bricklayers Arms roundabout have been removed over the past few weeks.

The larger northern roundabout is much more of a beast... I think it's unavoidable that removing it and installing pedestrian-friendly crossings would worsen traffic along key arteries like the A3 and A201, but it's a price worth paying because at present the 'heart' of E&C is a roaring roundabout flanked by awful buildings, and as long as this is the case the urban fabric of the area will be broken no matter how many gleaming Stratas etc are built.
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Old July 2nd, 2013, 10:38 PM   #662
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The larger northern roundabout is much more of a beast... I think it's unavoidable that removing it and installing pedestrian-friendly crossings would worsen traffic along key arteries like the A3 and A201, but it's a price worth paying because at present the 'heart' of E&C is a roaring roundabout flanked by awful buildings, and as long as this is the case the urban fabric of the area will be broken no matter how many gleaming Stratas etc are built.

There's quite a lot of evidence that congestion can become self-limiting. In other words, if roads become congested, drivers avoid making the journey. It simply takes too long. Traffic grows when roads are uncongested, but growth rates decline as congestion develops, reaching a self-limiting equilibrium. Encouraging car use in London is reckless stupidity, alternatives exist.
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Old July 2nd, 2013, 10:45 PM   #663
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There's quite a lot of evidence that congestion can become self-limiting. In other words, if roads become congested, drivers avoid making the journey. It simply takes too long. Traffic grows when roads are uncongested, but growth rates decline as congestion develops, reaching a self-limiting equilibrium. Encouraging car use in London is reckless stupidity, alternatives exist.
As if to illustrate the point, I witnessed the poor lady cyclist who was killed by an artic on the northern roundabout 4 years ago. I'm sure very many young professional people who would be looking to buy the new properties in the E&C area would love nothing more than to save a lot of money and cycle from there to their City or West End jobs, but wouldn't risk having to dice with death and negotiate the roads around E&C.
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Old July 2nd, 2013, 11:00 PM   #664
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A current TFL study is underway to remove the northern roundabout, due August 2013.

This follows Mayor of London support of the Peninsularisation around the tube station, in part to facilitate escalator entries to the underground.

http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/6928

A design study for the proposed new intersection is also underway with the team behind Bankside Urban forest, funded by Mayor
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Old July 2nd, 2013, 11:04 PM   #665
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Paulina's link:

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Figures published by TfL this week show that during the rush hour 34 per cent of all northbound vehicles at Elephant & Castle roundabout are bikes.
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Old July 3rd, 2013, 12:40 AM   #666
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Aren't large intrusive roads always to the detriment of pedestrians? I mean, can't we all agree that the largest single problem in regenerating the E&C was and is still all the damn traffic? Busy roads are unpleasant, and even if you insist and win an argument for the necessity of them, they will remain unpleasant and detrimental to the pedestrian realm.
Wide roads aren't that big a problem for pedestrians. Loads of cities in America, European mainland, Australia, and well just about everywhere, have very wide and broad avenues. They do however have very wide paving alongside, and are often lined with trees and rather attractive. In the UK developers are permitted to build right up to the edge of plots leaving very narrow paving, and roads are often bloody ugly. The narrow pavements also leave no room for segregated cycle lanes, and some people who claim most roads should be narrowed don't use buses which struggle to overtake and navigate, or think about ambulances, deliveries etc. Even if all private cars were banned in many places the roads can't be narrowed.
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Old July 3rd, 2013, 02:59 AM   #667
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Wide roads aren't that big a problem for pedestrians. Loads of cities in America, European mainland, Australia, and well just about everywhere, have very wide and broad avenues. They do however have very wide paving alongside, and are often lined with trees and rather attractive. In the UK developers are permitted to build right up to the edge of plots leaving very narrow paving, and roads are often bloody ugly. The narrow pavements also leave no room for segregated cycle lanes, and some people who claim most roads should be narrowed don't use buses which struggle to overtake and navigate, or think about ambulances, deliveries etc. Even if all private cars were banned in many places the roads can't be narrowed.
Precisely.
Every big city has certain amount of traffic which will not disappear however hard we try to encourage people to use public transport. I work in Covent Garden area and majority of cars there are already delivery vehicles, cabs, etc.
On Monday morning there are jams created in 90% by vans and small trucks with deliveries. There must be some road space available. We can't simply pedestrianize the whole zone 1.
Also as a regular bus user the whole idea of cycling lanes (especially ridiculously named cycling super highways) drive me mad. Buses are much slower nowadays and a lot of it is due to cyclists clogging bus lanes.
London definitely needs dedicated cycling paths. They don't have to be alongside the major arteries, but they should be separated as much as possible from the regular traffic.
Bit of blue paint doesn't make a "cycling super hwy"
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Old July 3rd, 2013, 11:40 AM   #668
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
Precisely.
Every big city has certain amount of traffic which will not disappear however hard we try to encourage people to use public transport. I work in Covent Garden area and majority of cars there are already delivery vehicles, cabs, etc.
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Wide roads aren't that big a problem for pedestrians. Loads of cities in America, European mainland, Australia, and well just about everywhere, have very wide and broad avenues. They do however have very wide paving alongside, and are often lined with trees and rather attractive. In the UK developers are permitted to build right up to the edge of plots leaving very narrow paving, and roads are often bloody ugly. The narrow pavements also leave no room for segregated cycle lanes, and some people who claim most roads should be narrowed don't use buses which struggle to overtake and navigate, or think about ambulances, deliveries etc. Even if all private cars were banned in many places the roads can't be narrowed.
sounds like you have both hit a brick wall! How about shared space?
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Old July 3rd, 2013, 12:08 PM   #669
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As shown by the end result of Elephant and Castle, wanting cars to be accommodated (or out of sight) requires expenditure. Simply trying to ignore the car in the plans and spend the bare minumum on their infrastructure ends up with the messy compromise we can see in E&C. If the developers were truly serious about taking the car out of the developmeent they needed to spend money. Lots of it on dropping the major trunk routes below ground. E&C is indeed a missed opportunity for both road users and residents.
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Old July 3rd, 2013, 12:11 PM   #670
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well if there were not some pointless sightlines covering it then we might have been able to allow the developers to make more money and free up more even space
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Old July 3rd, 2013, 12:41 PM   #671
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Elephant and Castle is about as prime as you can get right now in London. If a developer can't make a profit out of a plot like that then they seriously need to rethink their business model.
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Old July 3rd, 2013, 01:04 PM   #672
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Elephant and Castle is about as prime as you can get right now in London. If a developer can't make a profit out of a plot like that then they seriously need to rethink their business model.
Who is to say the developer isnít going to make money from it. I am sure Lendlease will make at least a 15% margin on it, after all it Southwark who are paying for the expensive demo.

You seem to be confusing the wider road network reconfiguration with LL redevelopment of Heygate. It has little to do with the success of that as LL will redevelop the Heygate regardless. This whole off course debate over car usage stems from LL taking liberties with trying to push for more car parking spaces as they are very lucrative. The simple solution should be for Southwark to tell them where to go and just get on and build as they have done very well out of Southwark taxpayers already.
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Old July 3rd, 2013, 02:59 PM   #673
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Originally Posted by Vnofd5 View Post
Ffs, not this transport and traffic crap again.
hey, 'transport and traffic crap' is my bread and butter

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Not sure of your point. You're saying the pedestrian realm wouldn't be improved in all of these areas without traffic? That having vehicles streaming down the middle isn't to the detriment of people on foot in every one of the locations you just listed? I'm not saying it's practical or even possible to remove it, I'm saying that it being there, even if it has to be makes the area less pleasant for pedestrians.

And I didn't say the problem with E&C was all the damn traffic I said that one of the biggest problems was all the damn traffic. It is. Just you try telling the chumps who have been trying to replan the damn thing for god knows how many years that it doesn't matter.
No, my point is that on roads where traffic is busy and exists for a reason, it is entirely possible for that road to remain a pleasant pedestrian environment whilst still accommodating vehicles. It's in our own interest for the E&C to be as optimal for its road users as possible, this can be done whilst still creating a far superior pedestrian environment than currently exists. There are examples all over London where it works. That's all I was trying to get at with that post, hope this clears it up for you.
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Old July 3rd, 2013, 04:32 PM   #674
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Well earlier proposals drawn up by the previous developers, before it all collapsed in acrimony, called for a new main road connecting Walworth Rd to Old Kent Road, that would have allowed the main road to have been reduced slightly, but that was rejected by the council.
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Old July 3rd, 2013, 04:45 PM   #675
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
Precisely.
Every big city has certain amount of traffic which will not disappear however hard we try to encourage people to use public transport. I work in Covent Garden area and majority of cars there are already delivery vehicles, cabs, etc.
On Monday morning there are jams created in 90% by vans and small trucks with deliveries. There must be some road space available. We can't simply pedestrianize the whole zone 1.
Also as a regular bus user the whole idea of cycling lanes (especially ridiculously named cycling super highways) drive me mad. Buses are much slower nowadays and a lot of it is due to cyclists clogging bus lanes.
London definitely needs dedicated cycling paths. They don't have to be alongside the major arteries, but they should be separated as much as possible from the regular traffic.
Bit of blue paint doesn't make a "cycling super hwy"
Another thing I have noticed is the very extensive use of underground parking in European countries. It's rare in the UK, and even in expensive developments built from scratch sometimes parking and bays are at ground floor level causing poor street level integration & active frontages, if built at all.

I suppose this is because in the UK developers whinge and moan about spending money, landbank for years, and the price of land is very high so once bought things are built as cheaply as possible. Interesting that this year profits across all large house builder are up, and up by double figures. Is quality increasing with that?

With such large scale developments as the E&C, a pragmatic approach is needed and a realisation needed that it is a major junction. Make it more attractive, remove the hideous amount of clutter as was done as the southern roundabout, and where possible double the width of all pavements, push back new buildings to these widths, and extend existing pavements which is often quite possible.

Last edited by SF-02; July 3rd, 2013 at 04:50 PM.
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Old July 3rd, 2013, 05:45 PM   #676
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There is zero evidence that cyclists delay buses in any way. This is an urban myth, no idea where it came from. If every London cyclist decided to drive in the congestion would be hideous.
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Old July 3rd, 2013, 06:01 PM   #677
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There is zero evidence that cyclists delay buses in any way. This is an urban myth, no idea where it came from. If every London cyclist decided to drive in the congestion would be hideous.
Seriously if you want to be taken seriously at least accept some have a point. I see cyclists slowing do traffic and buses all the time ( when I am walking along the pavement), itís not an urban myth at all and I would also suggest the vast majority of people cycling to work didnít drive anyway and got public transport. I have never met a single person who worked in the City or West end that drove a car to work ( yes driven a scooter or bike) unless they worked in a trade/role that required them to drive.
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Old July 3rd, 2013, 06:14 PM   #678
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Car ownership among cyclists is higher than among non cyclists:


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The vast majority of adult cyclists hold a driving licence, and research shows that car ownership is actually higher than average among those who cycle regularly.

http://road.cc/content/news/77480-mo...s-point-theyre

There is no evidence buses are impeded by cyclists since the average speed of cyclists is higher than for motor traffic.
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Old July 3rd, 2013, 06:26 PM   #679
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Car ownership among cyclists is higher than among non cyclists:





http://road.cc/content/news/77480-mo...s-point-theyre

There is no evidence buses are impeded by cyclists since the average speed of cyclists is higher than for motor traffic.
Yes cyclists own cars, as do a whooping great number of commuters who use public transport but it doesnít mean they will drive to work in central London does it and you can quote stats until the cows come home but I have seen on many occasions buses and other vehicle slow to a crawl as there is a much slower cyclist preventing anyone from overtaking. This militant the cyclist is always right does the cycle lobby no favours at all.

The simple fact with congestion is there is only finite road space, as there is bus,tube,train capacity and an increase of around 2million people from 1990-2020, there will always be congestion purely because of this simple fact. Not ideal but that is how it is.
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Old July 3rd, 2013, 06:43 PM   #680
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I'm not being particularly militant, nor am i saying the cyclists is always right, I'm pointing out that there is no evidence, anywhere, that cyclists delay buses and if London cyclists took their vehicles into the urban centre the delays would be real and very noticeable.


image hosted on flickr




Quote:
With road space being a limitation in-built up cities, selfish road users who slow everyone else down are becoming a real problem. Using the road two abreast, slowing others down, causing traffic etc….

Those bloody car drivers need to be sorted out. The two person wide vehicle which is often seen with only a driver, takes up more space than they need to on the roads. Thus causing traffic and preventing the faster moving road users on more suitable width vehicles from using the road as efficiently as they could do.

I always find it amusing when someone comments that cyclists hold up traffic and how they should all get cars. What they can’t see is that a bicycle is one less car, and a bike is a hell of a lot easier to overtake.

Who stole all the road space?



Above is the road space that 60 people require when traveling by bus, bicycle and car. Quite clearly the cars take up a hell of a lot more space, the bus takes up the least but all people most travel to the same dictation or stay on the bus till they get near to their destination. The bicycle takes up a little more than the bus but much less than the cars, users are able to travel to their destinations individually.

Why do we still cater for such inefficient private transportation in cities?
http://www.croydoncyclist.co.uk/limited-road-space/
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