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Old July 3rd, 2013, 06:51 PM   #681
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While I agree with the sentiment and am a regular cycle commuter myself, there's no way that 60 moving cyclists take up that little road space.
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Old July 3rd, 2013, 07:05 PM   #682
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true at a certain speed but that would just be the same for buses, lorries and cars so their volume would also extrapolate proportionally.

The thing with human powered cycles and particularly walking humans is that the speed is directly related to physical effort and so a low speed is highly attractive so it becomes safe for a variety of users without convoluted street engineering can exist harmoniously.

Until powered vehicles become more intelligent regarding external sensors and guaranteed travelling speeds then they will always require vastly more space and heavy engineering solutions as speed is virtualised and encouraged.
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Old July 3rd, 2013, 09:01 PM   #683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post
I'm not being particularly militant, nor am i saying the cyclists is always right, I'm pointing out that there is no evidence, anywhere, that cyclists delay buses and if London cyclists took their vehicles into the urban centre the delays would be real and very noticeable.


image hosted on flickr






http://www.croydoncyclist.co.uk/limited-road-space/
Seriously do you not listen, I have seen it myself several times when cyclists have held up traffic just because it doesn't follow your milltant mindset doesn't mean its not real and yes isn't that picture lovely, shame it has no bearing on real life. Why not go all out and put all those cyclists hogging the road space on the pavement as pedestrians and then volia, there is no road congestion whatsoever and problem solved.
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Old July 3rd, 2013, 09:12 PM   #684
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I'd say the problem of the Peninsula is the failure of politics and the banking crises putting paid to development for five years.
I believe it goes back further than that. The E&C shopping mall has changed hands a number of times in the last 20 years. To their credit, LB Southwark have resisted attempts by some developers to hold them over a barrel and accept compromises in quality. Southwark don't deserve criticism by anyone for holding things up, they deserve praise for recognising how important E&C is to London.

For what its worth, I've just finished designing some preliminary proposals for a new layout for E&C in collaboration with an engineering colleague for the Mayors Road Task Force launch this time next week. I'm half expecting every urban design and architecture consultancy in London to jump up in outrage and claim they can do better. However we've had glowing feedback so far and I'm pretty satisfied with the results we've achieved...everything looks integrated and fits.

I hope the public and media support it also, although there is always room for improvement.
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Old July 3rd, 2013, 09:20 PM   #685
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I believe it goes back further than that. The E&C shopping mall has changed hands a number of times in the last 20 years. To their credit, LB Southwark have resisted attempts by some developers to hold them over a barrel and accept compromises in quality. Southwark don't deserve criticism by anyone for holding things up, they deserve praise for recognising how important E&C is to London.

For what its worth, I've just finished designing some preliminary proposals for a new layout for E&C in collaboration with an engineering colleague for the Mayors Road Task Force launch this time next week. I'm half expecting every urban design and architecture consultancy in London to jump up in outrage and claim they can do better. However we've had glowing feedback so far and I'm pretty satisfied with the results we've achieved...everything looks integrated and fits.

I hope the public and media support it also, although there is always room for improvement.
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Old July 3rd, 2013, 10:00 PM   #686
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Old July 3rd, 2013, 10:08 PM   #687
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Quote:
Originally Posted by london lad View Post
Seriously do you not listen, I have seen it myself several times when cyclists have held up traffic just because it doesn't follow your milltant mindset doesn't mean its not real and yes isn't that picture lovely, shame it has no bearing on real life. Why not go all out and put all those cyclists hogging the road space on the pavement as pedestrians and then volia, there is no road congestion whatsoever and problem solved.

Given that the average speed of rush hour traffic in London is 7mph and a reasonable average cycling speed is 13mph what you're claiming makes no sense. That's not militant talk, it's the reality of road transport speeds in the capital. Cyclists travel twice as fast as a car in traffic.

Quote:
An average cyclist can travel at 12-15mph, twice the speed of a car in rush-hour London.
http://www.bikehub.co.uk/news/averag...-says-citroen/

Don't believe me? They did a race. Volia! The bike won:

Quote:
In an attempt to find the quickest means to negotiate the virtually gridlocked streets of the capital, we organised a race. Starting in West London, with London City Airport the target destination, our presenters introduced their weapons of choice. In a shock result that could spell the end of Top Gear as we know it, the bicycle came first, then the speedboat, then the Oyster card, and finally the car. Ahem.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b008czf4
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Old July 3rd, 2013, 10:41 PM   #688
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Please stop the general chatter about cycling / traffic etc.

Discuss the specifics of the roundabouts and traffic / cycling at E&C yes, but this general discussion is tiresome. Transport and infrastructure please. I'll delete any further posts so don't bother wasting your time.
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Old July 3rd, 2013, 11:00 PM   #689
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John Craven was talking about how horrible Elephant and Castle is nearly thirty years ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U483hG2myDI

What it could be:



Quote:
Until recently, the only realistic way to access the shops has been to navigate one of several gloomy, intimidating, urine-soaked subways.

Building the civic square would require substantial changes to how motor vehicles move around the area because the roundabout would no longer exist.

If the same number of vehicles tried to navigate the new road layout then it’s possible some journeys would take longer. But that's to ignore that 50% of journeys in London are less than two miles, and it only requires a small percentage of these to be walked or cycled to free up enough road space to allow the remaining motor vehicles to continue to move just as freely.

Unfortunately, the Mayor and Transport for London have halted the regeneration project, objecting to its interference with traffic flow. This is somewhat surprising because Boris Johnson has been very complimentary in the past about this “fantastic” development plan.

Now, since TfL pulled the plug on it, the Mayor is conspicuously failing to back a civic vision that would provide a vast people-friendly area, including a transport hub where people could switch effortlessly between train, tram, bus and tube.
http://lcc.org.uk/articles/people-fr...ort-for-london
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Old July 3rd, 2013, 11:35 PM   #690
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London, like Paris or Tokyo, will always suffer from bigcityitis. You can't turn Elephant and Castle into some sort of a village square.
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Old July 3rd, 2013, 11:45 PM   #691
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How many village squares have train, tram, tube and bus links? It's about improving the public realm at a major interchange.
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Old July 4th, 2013, 12:16 AM   #692
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I live in E&C and it is the most car dominated area of London I've seen. It takes probably double the time it should to get anywhere on foot due to the awkward roundabouts and subways.

Even public transport is a nightmare. Plenty of buses, but most of them stop outside the shopping centre where you have about a metre of pathway, this is clogged up by 50 people waiting for a bus whilst others are barging their way through trying to get to the tube station. It's a mess, I can't believe the rea doesn't make a proper bus station.

It really is a relic of the 60's and needs a complete overhaul, but it wont happen because its such a busy junction and any car disruption would probably have major knock on effects. The problem is only going to get worse as these new developments come about, they are great but they will lead to a massive increase in the pedestrian population who are going to get a nasty shock.
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Old July 4th, 2013, 12:26 AM   #693
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Reduce the cars, create less need for road space, extend the pedestrian realm. It's not rocket science.
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Old July 4th, 2013, 12:56 PM   #694
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I'm lost. What are latest on plans for development of Elephant & Castle?
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Old July 4th, 2013, 02:43 PM   #695
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy Mack View Post
I'm lost. What are latest on plans for development of Elephant & Castle?
Here you go, in some sort of order:


Removal of the Southern Roundabout with subways [started in 2010]:

image hosted on flickr

Elephant and Castle southern roundabout from Strata by Matt From London, on Flickr


Replaced by the Southern Junction without subways [completed in 2011]:




Demolition of the Rodney Road section of the Heygate Estate [complete]:



Construction of Trafalgar Place residential scheme, on the 'Rodney Road' section of the old Heygate [currently under construction]:






Construction of One The Elephant, by Strata [currently under construction]





Demolition of the main Heygate Estate [Starting in 2015]:

image hosted on flickr

1-242 Ashenden - Heygate Estate by sarflondondunc, on Flickr


Construction of the main Heygate Regeneration [to start after the main Heygate Estate is demolished]

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Old July 4th, 2013, 04:56 PM   #696
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In all fairness, the Trafalgar Place part of the scheme looks pretty good. Certainly it is a vast improvement over the existing realm.

One thing that concerns me with these sorts of regenerations is the permeability to the surrounding areas. They should seamlessly blend in IMO. If the development turns its back on its surroundings you just end up with a wealth enclave rather than a poverty enclave.
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Old July 4th, 2013, 07:13 PM   #697
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Whats happening with the tower block next to Strata? is it just getting a clean?
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Old July 4th, 2013, 07:24 PM   #698
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I think so, yeah. Apparently part of the contract to the developers of Strata was to clean it (I think I heard).

Also, you can't get any more 60s then a tower block on a street called 'Rodney Road'
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Old July 4th, 2013, 08:45 PM   #699
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2015!!!!!

..why the hell are they waiting another 2 years to demolish something that's been virtually derelict since about 2011, and making me physically sick to look at for longer than that.

..If you're gonna tell me there are some 'hold-outs' who won't leave...then fuck' em, knock it down with them in it.
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Old July 5th, 2013, 01:02 AM   #700
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeFiBkIlLeR View Post
2015!!!!!

..why the hell are they waiting another 2 years to demolish something that's been virtually derelict since about 2011, and making me physically sick to look at for longer than that.

..If you're gonna tell me there are some 'hold-outs' who won't leave...then fuck' em, knock it down with them in it.
There are a couple in the low-rise portions, but all of the barrier blocks are empty. Can't see why these at least can't be pulled down now. They look even worse of late; the security of the block flanking New Kent Road (Ashenden) has been penetrated and now there's graffiti all over, on all floors.

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