Elephant & Castle £1.5bn Regeneration | Southwark | Approved

[Manuel]

The space devoted to road traffic in this part of town is to big, that's pretty clear. Too big considering the other traffic and even too big for road traffic as this place was designed, as you mentioned, to cater for longer through traffic. So now we've got two big roundabouts that are functionning far from their theoretical traffic capacity.

Reducing their capacity wouldn't harm essential road traffic but would not improve the other traffic especially pedestrians flows.

Removing them carefully while providing boulevard style capacity would result in a very vast improvment, especially if it is designed on Barcelona or Paris boulevards.

But I guess Boris is worrying about the reduced road capacity proposed in the E&C masterplan. Dont reduce it too much, humanise it, and get the things done quickly!

[Manuel]

But sometimes while reading some of the comments here I feel you think London is Los Angeles, when it is not at all.

[potto]

Boris is just listening to the AA, like he did with Parliament Sq. I would personally rather listen to Richard Rogers than the Clarkson types, seems obvious but sadly we have a Mayor who just doesnt get it. They have about as much grasp on the urban as a Little Chef Restaurant.

[Officer Dibble]

Originally Posted by Manuel

I dont know why some are so obsessed against the car. I would be too if London had, in its past, ever cattered for the motorist. It is not the case and never have been. Go and visit continental Europe and you see how much has been done to relieve traffic by building road capacity.

I dont suggest building underpasses and tunnels. But as the shopping centre and Heygate estate are supposed to go, is it not possible to keep both intersections and create a shared surface area inbetween?

I'm not "obsessed against the car"; I own a car myself and before I bought it I quite often rented cars. But in a big city like London, it's obvious that if the city is to be livable, we should all walk, cycle or use public transport whenever possible (personally I cycle to work most days, and catch the tube if it's raining hard). I've lived in a number of continental European countries and while it's quite true that road networks as a whole are often much more extensive than ours (and I think there's an excellent case for more road-building nationally, and for extending the motorway network in particular), IN THE CITIES there's almost without exception far better pedestrian provision. This is sometimes simply a result of historic development patterns (e.g. Italian piazzas), but often it's the result of enlightened planning decisions in the 60s, 70s and 80s, when we were systematically ruining life for pedestrians and cyclists alike. We have a lot of catching up to do with most of contintental Europe in this respect, and we were making some progress during Ken's mayoralty. Looks like that progress is dead in the water now.

[Manuel]

Originally Posted by potto

Boris is just listening to the AA, like he did with Parliament Sq. I would personally rather listen to Richard Rogers than the Clarkson types, seems obvious but sadly we have a Mayor who just doesnt get it. They have about as much grasp on the urban as a Little Chef Restaurant.

@Officer
I agree with you but Ken has also made a lot of mistakes while in office regarding road capacity especially in the Outer Boroughs that made him pay the price!
London is not Paris, it has a much lower density and a looser public transport cover. All road traffic is not transferable to the pavement or on the cycle lanes. For this essential trafic there's only the vital minimum right now in the inner boroughs and a charging scheme for those who choose to pollute by using their car in the very centre.

The three of us agree broadly. But I was more ranting of the quasi hysteria against car declared by Ken...

And we have new tools such as shared surface, boulevard with phased traffic light to ensure low speed flows etc...

[potto]

Originally Posted by Manuel

But sometimes while reading some of the comments here I feel you think London is Los Angeles, when it is not at all.

British post war policy was to follow the US. The cities here *did* follow North American urban design.

We also realised the horrors of what was being destroyed/created at roughly the same time too, eg in San Francisco the urban motorways brought about protests and sprouted a huge debate in urban literature see Jane Jacobs The Death and Life of Great American Cities (1961).

What we have in London, The Euston road, Hyde Park Corner, Park Lane, Elephant & CAstle, London Bridge, Blackfriars etc are all remenants from that error.

They are a dead end they can not be joined up to create something useful from a motorists point of view as it would require a realisation of that destructive dream.

There is no point keeping these pointless ad hoc structures sucking up all the life out of our incredibly valuable urban space.

Basically Boris is saying this sort of space is more valuable as a place to give a motorist a brief 10 second fantasy of unlimited possibility in a steel can before the next set of traffic lights.

[Manuel]

That's nothing compared to america, spanish, french, Italian, German or dutch cities. Britain did follow america but never went as far as its european counterpart. That is a misconception.

To balance Jane Jacobs, there's also P. Hall Great Planning disaster...

[Octoman]

Originally Posted by potto

There is no point keeping these pointless ad hoc structures sucking up all the life out of our incredibly valuable urban space.

Agree on most of the places you mentioned but Elephant and castle is bloody ugly and generally populated by scum. Nobody would care if we drove a substial road through the area to connect better bits of south London to the centre - like Clapham.

[DarJoLe]

Originally Posted by Octoman

generally populated by scum.

You really do have a way with words. Idiot.

[Octoman]

Okay, that was insensitive. My apologies.

The thing is I am highly biased about this area. I used to live near the place and saw nothing but trouble whenever I went there. The entire place was overrun by aggressive beggars. Public drunkeness everywhere. Constant fights. For anyone who lived around there it was an area to avoid. I had my camera stolen there, my car wing mirror kicked off. Another time I had a drunk jump on my bonnet when I stopped at some lights. I had a nut case junky throw a needle at me in one of the underpass. The whole place feels to me like something out of mad max.

I realise the plans are there to try to improve this but the point I am making is that the area is thought of with such distaste that most people would be happier to have their passage through it eased. Boris is therefore highly unlikely to face opposition to plans to maintain traffic flow, rightly or wrongly.

[DarJoLe]

So you agree with Boris then?

[Octoman]

Actually, if I'm honest I am starting to become a bit disappointed with Boris's urban planning decisions. In this case though I can see that if the plan will genuinely cause major traffic congestion in the surrounding area then the redevopment would only export to problems elsewhere. Why cant the roads be dropped sub surface as part of the plan? Canary Wharf has an underground roundabout.

[Zenith]

There's no rightly about it. By tackling traffic flow and traffic flow only he isn't dealing with the core problem of the area is he now! I'm sure most people would love to turn a blind eye, stick on their blinkers and leave the peasants to fend for themselves but somebody has to live there, and not everyone is a scumbag. People have aspirations you know, difficult as it might seem to a toff like Boris. Regeneration, Redevelopment, tackling the core problems, tackling the crime. A sweeping concerted effort can be achieved here.

[Officer Dibble]

Originally Posted by Octoman

Okay, that was insensitive. My apologies.

The thing is I am highly biased about this area. I used to live near the place and saw nothing but trouble whenever I went there. The entire place was overrun by aggressive beggars. Public drunkeness everywhere. Constant fights. For anyone who lived around there it was an area to avoid. I had my camera stolen there, my car wing mirror kicked off. Another time I had a drunk jump on my bonnet when I stopped at some lights. I had a nut case junky throw a needle at me in one of the underpass. The whole place feels to me like something out of mad max.

This is all an argument for regeneration, not for ever-increasing traffic.

If the political argument in London is really going to boil down to the Tories investing in the places that are already smart and building roads over the rest, and other parties trying to bring the rest up to the standard of the smart places, then the Tories should never win another London election again.

[mulattokid]

Originally Posted by Octoman

Agree on most of the places you mentioned but Elephant and castle is bloody ugly and generally populated by scum. .

A very large African and south American Community...you do let your true self out occasionally dont you

[DarJoLe]

Originally Posted by Octoman

Why cant the roads be dropped sub surface as part of the plan? Canary Wharf has an underground roundabout.

Because then you'll just be turning the area into another Euston underpass. Whilst Westferry Circus looks attractive from the surface level, try and walk from it to Westferry DLR, or to the Landmark development and you'll see why these underpasses are pedestrian nightmares.

Canary Wharf was lucky because it had a blank slate to start with, and is built on a level higher than the surrounds. Unless you suggest raising Elephant and Castle up one level similar to the Barbican it's completely unfeasible to carve underneath it.

It's a simple question; do you think the centre of a suburb and major internode of South London should be dedicated to a landmark of a glorified traffic roundabout, or a central public piazza for people to congregate, enjoy, and socialise.

[Octoman]

Originally Posted by mulattokid

A very large African and south American Community...you do let your true self out occasionally dont you

Dont try to distort what I am saying by throwing around the racism card. Its a absolutely pathetic and put forward for no other reason than to stifle debate. I couldnt give a fuck with community these people came from. I am just putting forward my honest feelings about the area having lived near it and I'm not going to tone that down just because of some PC bullshit.

The area is really bad. In addition to my other experiences I have mentioned I have seem someone pepper sprayed and another guy vomit on the floor about 5 feet from my (then) girlfriend. i moved there from Bow and regretted it from the second I did it. Bow has its rough edges too but the that part of the East End has a style and a culture about it that elevated the place above its crap architecture.

It's a simple question; do you think the centre of a suburb and major internode of South London should be dedicated to a landmark of a glorified traffic roundabout, or a central public piazza for people to congregate, enjoy, and socialise.

But thats not the question at all. The question iswhether this can be done without causing huge knock on congestion to surrounding areas that are also struggling.

And the second part of the quote, from my experience of the place a central public plaze would not be 'enjoyed' and used to 'socialise and congregate'. It will be treated exactly the same as the existing rather ugly central space. The only way that what you are suggesting is if the area gentrifies and drives out the existing population. Perhaps thats the plan.

[mulattokid]

^ OOh hit a nerve then...then just what scum were you talking about Mr Right wing..oh I let another one out maniac?

Man vomited near my girlfriend!..thats has happened to me in Kensington you twat!

You try and cover your seedy tracks far too late! You are a bigot and then you have the nerve to deny it! Anyone doubting that should visit the Boris for Moyor thread. How defensive you people become when cornered!

Anyway, your humanside aside, I see you think E&C with its sub human population is only good enough to be a motorway...complete change of subject eh?

[Octoman]

It appears that accusing people of prejudice and racism is easier for you than actually trying to argue a point.

Tell me why E&C is a fine area.

[wjfox]

I have to agree with Octoman here, it's a very dodgy area. Tramps, drug addicts and gangs walking around. I lived there for over a year so I should know. And the area itself is a shit hole... filthy buildings and windswept concrete plazas, piss-stained alleys and underpasses, graffiti everywhere. Walworth Road has had 3 murders in the last few months.