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Old October 14th, 2008, 10:33 PM   #121
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It appears that accusing people of prejudice and racism is easier for you than actually trying to argue a point.

Tell me why E&C is a fine area.

Its no different to anywhere else and your views are just an excuse to ignore its needs and leave it be...a bit like Boris Johnsons views really.

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Old October 14th, 2008, 11:16 PM   #122
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You threw up the racism card. Shame on you.
Anyway, as I have had a number of incidents in this area that have added up to give me the impression that it is generally lawless. No doubt there are decent families living there but they remain pretty well hidden.

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Old October 14th, 2008, 11:16 PM   #123
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^

Me too. There is no doubt E&C is a dump. By far the worst in zone 1. That's why its so cheap. I wouldnt want to live there if they paid me to. Even in the Strata which must be the coolest resi tower around.

Anyway, on the subject of cars in the city; the fu**ed up thing about London traffic planning under Ken was that he did everything they can force cars out. The 'cars are bad' religion. So we got tubes crowed to the extend that they are unsuited for cattle transport, empty busses clocking up the streets, biclycles and schooters risking the lives of everybody especially themselves and car drivers wondering why it takes an hour to drive from Shoreditch to Nothing Hill?? What's world class about that??

They filled they streets with bus lanes, bus stops and parking booths and wierd round abouts and a one way street layout that requires a doctors degree to work out. I dont get why main roads like the ring road, kilburn high road, holloway and kingsland road are not minimum four lanes/dual carriageways. On most stretches there is plenty of space. Its a joke.

Big cities need effective transportation across all means; tube, train, bus and cars. In addition to cleaning up the road layout mess, there needs to be some major investments in making road traffic in London work. I mean crossrail/thameslink level investments making driving in, out and across the city smoother and faster. Tunnels and direct links from the M25 into town.

Well I have ranted about this before, it didnt work last time and car traffic is not exactly in vogue at the moment so I am not getting my hopes up too high. Its a shame and an annoyance though - and it is damaging this citys economy.
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Old October 14th, 2008, 11:36 PM   #124
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Anyway, on the subject of cars in the city; the fu**ed up thing about London traffic planning under Ken was that he did everything they can force cars out.
Good. Nobody needs a car in Central London.
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Old October 15th, 2008, 01:31 AM   #125
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Tell me why E&C is a fine area.
It's not, it's a dump - no question about that. But it's a dump in zone 1 that a few decades ago was a smart and popular hub for shopping and leisure of various sorts, and that could be again.

Unlike many dodgy parts of London, which look perfectly all right to the uninitiated, it's a dump precisely because of its planning and architecture. With some decent pedestrian spaces and some new buildings, it has the potential not just to be a bit less of a dump, but actually to be a highlight of central London, a destination to rival, say, Leicester Square or Angel (whatever you think of those places).

And, thanks to Southwark Council and their development partners, there is a plan to do just that. An extensive and expensive (£1.5bn) plan which I for one consider, for the reasons above, the most important regeneration project in all of London.

And Boris is doing his best to stuff it up.



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Old October 15th, 2008, 09:25 AM   #126
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Well I hope it doesnt get stuffed up because visually it is an utter eyesore.

I guess what I was asking that got lost along the way is whether changing the buildings is going to improve the behaviour of the people who live there. Gentrification normally comes at the expense of the existing residents. Presumably the current inhabitants of the area are getting rehoused in shiny new apartments. Whats to stop them going on the rampage again and deteriorating the place to a no go zone again?
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Old October 15th, 2008, 10:16 AM   #127
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Quote:
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Well I hope it doesnt get stuffed up because visually it is an utter eyesore.

?
Well on that we agree.....more reason to give the decent normal families something a bit more reasonable (I say give em....they too are tax payers)
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Old October 15th, 2008, 10:38 AM   #128
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I guess what I was asking that got lost along the way is whether changing the buildings is going to improve the behaviour of the people who live there. Gentrification normally comes at the expense of the existing residents. Presumably the current inhabitants of the area are getting rehoused in shiny new apartments. Whats to stop them going on the rampage again and deteriorating the place to a no go zone again?
I don't think it's a "no-go zone", ugly though it is (I live a couple of miles away and go there quite often - not for pleasure, true, but I've never found it that bad), and I don't by a million miles share your view of the current residents.

But I'm sure it's true that regeneration will change the social mix of the area - at the moment there's a very high concentration of social housing there, and the new developments, including the wonderful Strata, will obviously bring a lot of owner-occupiers and some private renters alongside a 35% or whatever proportion of "affordable" housing. The theory is that owner-occupiers have the greatest incentive to keep the area up since they have a financial stake in it, which is one of many reasons why that social mix is healthy. Another is that owner-occupiers and private renters will also tend to be better off, which will be good for local businesses, help support local jobs, etc - so there should be some trickle-down. I don't see how the regeneration can possibly be at the expense of existing residents - surely it's in their interest more than anyone's.
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Old October 15th, 2008, 11:25 AM   #129
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Its not the residents of Elephant that have created its problems.

Elephant is a major intersection and interchange for those traveling through South London up to Central London. The vast majority of people you see at Elephant in any one time don't live in the area.

The problem is the planning; the cavernous pedestrian walkways beneath the roundabouts, the two large roundabouts and countless sets of traffic lights, the bland shopping centre and 60s office blocks....
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Old October 15th, 2008, 07:28 PM   #130
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So calling the residents of E&C scum is in fact a misrepresentation as other factors are involved...Hmm. I always think informed caution is the best attitude..thank you

Additionally, providing the changes suggested will go some considerable way to alleviating the diificulties you site.
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Old October 15th, 2008, 08:23 PM   #131
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Thats my experience of the area. It is by far the worst part of London I have come accross and whether the people are residents of the place or passing through I found their behaviour to be generally threatening. The place has an air of menace about it.

Perhaps there is a majority of thoroughly decent people hiding behind doors who will emerge blinking into the sunlight once this scheme is complete. I hope so.

Either way I cant knock the scheme for trying to improve the area. In fact I like what they are doing with the place and the tall we are getting is one of my favourites in the pipeline.
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Old October 15th, 2008, 08:36 PM   #132
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The traffic layout that is causing all the trouble.

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Old October 16th, 2008, 10:37 AM   #133
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Looking at these plans I'm not sure what the problem is actually. Am I right that the roundabout in question is the triangular one to the bottom? It appears that the route through will be maintained but as a junction rather than a gyratory. The thing does work anyway. its a massive bottleneck that can take 45 minutes to get through at busy times.

If its the one to the north I can see potential problems for motorists coming from the East and heading South. The roundabout will be incomplete and it appears that they will be redirected abound the periphery of the area. Other than that though little will change.
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Old October 16th, 2008, 08:23 PM   #134
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Quote:
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This roundabout issue has taken a couple of years now
<snip>
The timescales are frustrating for everyone, but hang in there, you will see progress this year.
Don't bank on it, removing the roundabout has been canned.
http://brockleycentral.blogspot.com/...undabouts.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/davehil...oris-transport
http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/3531
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Old October 16th, 2008, 08:57 PM   #135
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Well that was written in April 07 wasn't it? So it's already failed to come true: we did not see progress last year. Thanks to Boris, we won't see progress this year either.
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Old October 17th, 2008, 01:08 AM   #136
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Some harsh words said about poor E&C. It may look bleak but it's not all that bad. It's not the locals fault that the area has been allowed to slide. Even when the shopping centre was new it's design is hardly friendly and inviting with its ramps and levels. Most of my friends goto Walworth Road and the reasons they go E&C is the market which is the saddest thing about the area as it's thrown in a cramped and grotty area. I wonder if this will find a more suitable setting in the future?
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Old October 17th, 2008, 08:22 AM   #137
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I agree. One of my dearest friends lives there and he is a saint, so it cant be all bad.
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Is it pure coincidence that a mans ******* resembles a brain - requisite with both hemispheres, and its truncated spinal cord - always in search of sensation?
(Mark Joseph 2008)
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Old October 17th, 2008, 02:24 PM   #138
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Most of my friends goto Walworth Road and the reasons they go E&C is the market which is the saddest thing about the area as it's thrown in a cramped and grotty area. I wonder if this will find a more suitable setting in the future?
Yes, there is due to be a new market square, which the council regards as very important. The initial part is sited immediately to the south of the Oakmayne site, and would be built on top of a new subsurface loading area. The idea is that it would therefore be able to trade during the major development works, which involve demolition of the existing site. However the Oakmayne scheme is on hold at present and unlikely to start until the housing market recovers.
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Old October 17th, 2008, 08:12 PM   #139
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Thanks for that SELondoner. Good to hear.
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Old October 18th, 2008, 02:29 AM   #140
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elephant and castle is nowhere near as bad as everyone said it is, there are plenty of areas in London, poorer, more grotty and more violent, it's just highlighted due to it being a major thoroughfair people have to go through to get to alot of places, i mean is the haygate any worse than i dunno off the top of my head stonebridge, south kilburn, market, woodberry down, ferrier, angell town, white city or the winstanley estate, they are all a much of a muchness in my opinion.

it's not the people that make these areas bad its the neglect, enfield council are piloting a scheme in edmonton, if its broken fix it straight away, this goes for smashed windows etc, and i for one think schemes like that as well as total redesigns if absolutely necessary are what improve these areas, not a bunch of new developments which if treated the same as the old will be knocked down in 30 years!

basically what i am saying is, they shouldn't push the poor out of elephant all the new people should be additions rather than replacements and they should help enhance the environment and make it somewhere that people are proud to call home, black or white, rich or poor!

Last edited by bigbossman; October 18th, 2008 at 02:34 AM. Reason: words added
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