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Old November 16th, 2005, 06:14 PM   #41
LocksRocks
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I think Victoria is just surviving on it's past reputation as a major station.
I would imagine Oxford road is more popular. The facts are it doesn't really serve high capacity routes, maybe in rush hour 2 car trains are busy, but at other times trains are dead. I've been from Swinton into Victoria, waited around 40 minutes for a train and there be 3 people on the whole train. Even when the tram extentions are built would there be a need for any more expansion? The outside of Victoria is great but the inside is shite and has been for years. The fact is that unless more routes are created, why should Victoria be turned into a dream station nobody uses?
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Old November 16th, 2005, 06:21 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golddigga18
well whatever, theres the ctrl and of course the jubilee line extension - "the most expensive railway ever built" not to mention the east london line extension, dlr extension and croydon tramlink? anyone, no?

ive made my point!
The DLR, ELL is paid for by London council taxpayers. The Jubilee line was pushed by Maggie to save her pet project ahead of London's transports preferred project of the ELL, in fact the JLE was about 10th on the list.

Where do you want the Channel Tunnel Rail Link to go? should it bypass London to link up with Liverpool Lime St?

This is what annoys Londoners is people on this board think that central govt is paying for everything, no mostly its being paid for by the mayor stacking the city up with debt and out of council tax.

Instead of waiting for central govt to give the cash out, Greater Manchester should be asking for a Mayor like London's and then you would get power over transport.
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Old November 16th, 2005, 06:57 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pricemazda
The DLR, ELL is paid for by London council taxpayers.


the councils in greater manchester do not have the power to pay for metrolink by increasing council tax i belive so that is annother example of london bias

Quote:
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Instead of waiting for central govt to give the cash out, Greater Manchester should be asking for a Mayor like London's and then you would get power over transport.
we probably should but even if it was to happen, it wouldn't be anytime soon
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Old November 16th, 2005, 06:59 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LocksRocks
I think Victoria is just surviving on it's past reputation as a major station.
I would imagine Oxford road is more popular. The facts are it doesn't really serve high capacity routes, maybe in rush hour 2 car trains are busy, but at other times trains are dead. I've been from Swinton into Victoria, waited around 40 minutes for a train and there be 3 people on the whole train. Even when the tram extentions are built would there be a need for any more expansion? The outside of Victoria is great but the inside is shite and has been for years. The fact is that unless more routes are created, why should Victoria be turned into a dream station nobody uses?
I fear Victoria will never be a dream station because of the points you made there in your post.I agree VAST amounts dosh will have to be forked out for anything like approaching the standard of Manc Piccadilly and if we are relying on Northern rail to provide the cash I think we can forget any major referb in the near future. The tight fisted sods won't even fork out for new trains to replace those 1970's trollybus cattlecarts that are well past their time. Another problem is it will be difficult to surpress that oppressiveness of the platforms that are under the MEN Arena.The stark flourescent lighting makes it worse,its the same reason I hate New Street in Brum.
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Old November 16th, 2005, 07:28 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LocksRocks
I think Victoria is just surviving on it's past reputation as a major station.
I would imagine Oxford road is more popular. The facts are it doesn't really serve high capacity routes, maybe in rush hour 2 car trains are busy, but at other times trains are dead. I've been from Swinton into Victoria, waited around 40 minutes for a train and there be 3 people on the whole train. Even when the tram extentions are built would there be a need for any more expansion? The outside of Victoria is great but the inside is shite and has been for years. The fact is that unless more routes are created, why should Victoria be turned into a dream station nobody uses?
During the datytime it is quiet - however it's packed at rush hour. My four car train in the morning is always full to bursting. It's also very well used at weekends with loads of busytrains from mid morning right through to 11pm. The station also serves the MEN Arena. I don't think lack of use is a vaild excuse for the powers on high to trott out for leaving it in a mess.
If you're travelling from many places it's the only station you can use.
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Old November 16th, 2005, 10:06 PM   #46
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look at what you could have won........

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Old November 16th, 2005, 10:46 PM   #47
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If only...
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Old November 17th, 2005, 12:11 AM   #48
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jcg, you cruel man , that is the beauty that got me into skyscraper's back when i was still doing my paper round , i'll love this ****** to become reality after all these years
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Old November 17th, 2005, 12:36 AM   #49
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That would have looked amazing.

I get trains 3 or 4 times a week to Oxford Road, which does get very busy and they probably won't do any work to it, they've put new toilets in but that's it. A new coat of paint would be a start.

oscar9 I to wish they would replace those old trains I get on them most of the time, passengers should get cheaper fares for going on those.
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Old November 17th, 2005, 12:51 AM   #50
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I never realised that was the location for the Vector Arena tower. Thanks jcq - what a superb pic.


Of the 5 stations serving the city centre, Victoria is by far the most underrated and under exploited. If various bodies are investing in Salford Central in order to make it a more prominent and attractive hub in view of when Spinningfields inevitably spills over the river, then I dont see why there isn't a similar long term vision for Manchester Victoria - especially with all the proposed developments at Greengate. Actually this is probably part of the reason. Greengate lies within Salfords boundary which will be served by Victoria lying within Manchester.

Still, as the area becomes more and more developed especially given the pace of change at the minute it is surely inevitable that Victoria will be the focus of greater investment, better rolling stock and better connections. If the BBC relocate to the Exchange Station site then this could just be the tipping point.

Last edited by SleepyOne; November 17th, 2005 at 01:11 AM.
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Old November 17th, 2005, 01:05 AM   #51
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so it has been cosidered to build a huge mofo tower there in the past... why not build it now! woop
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Old November 17th, 2005, 01:13 AM   #52
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We need to stop thinking of Victoria as a train stopping place. It is first and foremost a top drawer development site. The fact that it is a railway station is the major reason for its current sad state. If it was a bare piece of land in that location it would have been snapped up by now.
A few local (btw subsidised) trains aren't going to get developers queuing up.
The Vector Tower was exactly what was/is required for the site- it could still work with the right commercial mix but as I've said before on this thread, the previous investment proposal lacked focus and therefore credibility - ultimately why it didn't happen at the time. It was also seen as an Olympic Bid project. The Bid failed so 'no need for Vector Tower then'.
No reason why a 'son of' proposal could not be successful. Manchester is also a much more credible proposition than it was then.
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Old November 17th, 2005, 11:37 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Latic
During the datytime it is quiet - however it's packed at rush hour. My four car train in the morning is always full to bursting. It's also very well used at weekends with loads of busytrains from mid morning right through to 11pm. The station also serves the MEN Arena. I don't think lack of use is a vaild excuse for the powers on high to trott out for leaving it in a mess.
If you're travelling from many places it's the only station you can use.
A valid point Latic, the way I see it few people connect or travel long distances from Victoria. That results in few people spending any great time there, no businesses will want to invest there as there isn't the custom. I don't think the development of the station is viable wholey as a station. It should be developed mainly as a through station and a non travelling, indoor public space. Opening some boozers, cafes, book shop etc all under a nice glass roof. I think we need to take more of a European or even US look at stations. Let Piccadilly have have a Sainbury's, WH Smith etc with frantic passengers rushing to buy a sandwich and paper before they travel to London. Let Victoria have people enjoying their lunch while not travelling anywhere. This can only come about through the private sector.

Last edited by LocksRocks; November 17th, 2005 at 12:54 PM.
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Old November 17th, 2005, 11:58 AM   #54
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Wow. Lovely pic, thanks jcg.

Couldn't agree more LocksRocks. I reckon development is the only thing that will fund improvements to Victoria Station.
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Old November 17th, 2005, 03:42 PM   #55
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why would you need people to eat sandwiches there? thats nothing to do with it?! unless i have completly missed the point? :S think about it as an office development close to transport network - would look good next to the lonely CIS - there is the space and demand i guess. It doesnt matter that there isnt 'customers around there' (build it and they will come)
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Old November 17th, 2005, 03:46 PM   #56
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67 floors and gold?
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Old November 17th, 2005, 04:03 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richmond_Michael
why would you need people to eat sandwiches there? thats nothing to do with it?! unless i have completly missed the point? :S think about it as an office development close to transport network - would look good next to the lonely CIS - there is the space and demand i guess. It doesnt matter that there isnt 'customers around there' (build it and they will come)
The thread is about the state of Victoria, so who is going to pay for the improvements? Either Network Rail or a private investor. If it's down to NR they would only invest the bear minimum as to them it is a fairly low priority station.
So the only way a really good improvment would be made would be through a developer. A developer can build a skyscraper in a number of locations, so why bother developing a station too? Because they can generate income through leasing space within the station. High value rent won't come through commuters buying a paper on their way home, it would have to come through cafes, bars etc.

Last edited by LocksRocks; November 17th, 2005 at 04:53 PM.
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Old November 17th, 2005, 07:57 PM   #58
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I'm fairly confident that Victoria will get some kind of refurb in the future. New development is already moving out that way, and if the Boddington's brewery gets redeveloped, its going to be surrounded by new developments.
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Old November 17th, 2005, 08:00 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LocksRocks
A valid point Latic, the way I see it few people connect or travel long distances from Victoria. That results in few people spending any great time there, no businesses will want to invest there as there isn't the custom. I don't think the development of the station is viable wholey as a station. It should be developed mainly as a through station and a non travelling, indoor public space. Opening some boozers, cafes, book shop etc all under a nice glass roof. I think we need to take more of a European or even US look at stations. Let Piccadilly have have a Sainbury's, WH Smith etc with frantic passengers rushing to buy a sandwich and paper before they travel to London. Let Victoria have people enjoying their lunch while not travelling anywhere. This can only come about through the private sector.
It's a good plan, however would be logistical problems getting rid of Victoria as a station. Oldham, Ashton and Rochdale would be completely cut off the network. Besides it would take me an extra half hour to get home from work which is what really counts .

Ideally you could develop the car park into something similar to what you suggest - there's quite a bit of room. Incorporate Victoria itself into this and hey presto - good devlelopment in striking distance of Shudehill, Exchange Square and the Green Quarter.
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Old November 17th, 2005, 08:33 PM   #60
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Currently the main obstacle to something happening here is the railway station itself and that it is owned by a quango called Network Rail.

The overwhelming bollocks of bureaucracy (and therefore cost and delay) that surround the railway industry and the public sector is enough to get most developers jumping under trains.
Piccadilly managed to get it's remake approved before Byers renationalised the railways thank god.

On the plus side, everything has it's price and the scale of the challenge means that the eventual development will have to be on a large scale to pay for it all.
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