daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old January 3rd, 2011, 03:03 PM   #1981
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,615
Likes (Received): 19410

We had that indoctrination for years in the Netherlands and was proven untrue. It is true additional traffic will use the motorway, but it's ridiculous to claim it will endlessly increase and no widening will ever be adequate. London is a city of 10 million yet has the beltway that suits a population of 1 - 2 million. The road needs to be widened accordingly.

For example, 1 year after adding 1 lane on the A2 motorway in the Netherlands, traffic congestion is still down by 96%. How about that for "induced demand"?
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old January 3rd, 2011, 04:55 PM   #1982
sotonsi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,563

Widening the M25 does work - around Rickmansworth, it's a lot better, even though it's not finished yet and the bit to the north will still have roadworks for a while. Though 4+ lanes on a carriageway leads to California-style driving - collector-distributor carriageways are a better option, and alternative routes (like the M31 or the various parallel dual-carriageways like the A404) should also be seriously considered if widening 4-lane sections.

The M40-M4 section was to have been widened to D3+2, rather than the D4 it was eventually widened to - would have flowed much better and has needed that extra lane for about 15 years so very annoying that they didn't pay for it.

However, as I said upthread, the problem isn't the number of lanes on the bits between junctions, it's the junctions - too low capacity for the traffic using them and often coming with annoying lane drops - especially the double one for the M3 junction, which causes all sorts of trouble.

Note: I'm using more British descriptions for number of lanes, dealing with only one side of the road. I'm doing this for my sanity. Where I said "D4" and "4-lane" that means that there are 8 lanes in total (but 8-lane roads could mean 5 lanes one way and 3 the other or something). D3+2 would be a 4-lane road with a 6-lane road in the median/central reserve/whatever it's called in the type of English we're meant to use here.
sotonsi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 3rd, 2011, 05:23 PM   #1983
Penn's Woods
Deadpan Snarker
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 6,247
Likes (Received): 781

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
We had that indoctrination for years in the Netherlands and was proven untrue. It is true additional traffic will use the motorway, but it's ridiculous to claim it will endlessly increase and no widening will ever be adequate. London is a city of 10 million yet has the beltway that suits a population of 1 - 2 million. The road needs to be widened accordingly.

For example, 1 year after adding 1 lane on the A2 motorway in the Netherlands, traffic congestion is still down by 96%. How about that for "induced demand"?
Meaning, five to ten times as many lanes as now?
Penn's Woods no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 3rd, 2011, 05:59 PM   #1984
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,615
Likes (Received): 19410

I didn't say that. If you compare it to a city of similar size, like Paris, you can see Paris has 3 ring roads plus numerous spurs and radial motorways getting closer to where people live and work than in London. Madrid has an even more developed motorway network than Paris.

The M25 around London carries through, regional and local traffic. Nearly all sections carry over 120,000 vehicles per day, which is about the max for 6 lanes and smooth traffic. The I/C value is likely very poor along most of M25, exceeding 0.9 or 1.0 in many places (below 0.7 - 0.8 is an adequate traffic flow). Shoulder running isn't going to improve that, shoulders will need to be open nearly all day and is thus not a sustainable, robust and safe option in the long term.

Like I said, London needs a local-express setup with 12 - 14 lanes, like 3+4+4+3 lanes. Local traffic can exit at any junction, through traffic only at major interchanges. This will require a total rebuild of much of the M25, but hey, you're not paying fuel duties and other automobile taxes for no reason. The UK mindsetting needs to change. Not long ago the attitude towards motorways in the Netherlands was much like in the UK, decades of standstill or only minor improvements that didn't keep up with demand. Things can change!
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 3rd, 2011, 06:03 PM   #1985
Comfortably Numb
Goddess of Winter
 
Comfortably Numb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 2,521
Likes (Received): 309

5 lanes either side for any road is enough IMO. The more lanes you build, the more weaving in and out and chaining lanes there is, plus if you widen only in sections (as with the M25), you create bottlenecks and accident blackspots when the motorway goes from 6 lanes to 4 lanes and to 3 lanes.

It's better to build more arterial roads to alleviate pressure. London could do with a 2nd ring, even if it isn't a complete ring road. I would also build a motorway running from the M3 at Basingstoke, up to the M4, M40, across linking to the M1 at Luton and across to the M11 and terminating somewhere in Essex, linking to the A13. Such a motorway would only need 3 lanes and would divert a LOT of traffic from the Greater London area / M25, so no further M25 widening would be necessary. It would also connect a lot of dots, as in give many of the relatively large towns & cities in counties such as Berkshire, Bedfordshire, Hertfordshire and Essex east / west linkage.

Last edited by Comfortably Numb; January 3rd, 2011 at 06:09 PM.
Comfortably Numb no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 3rd, 2011, 08:00 PM   #1986
poshbakerloo
***Alexxx***
 
poshbakerloo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: London, Manchester, Cheshire, Sheffield, Moscow
Posts: 5,092
Likes (Received): 292

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post

For example, 1 year after adding 1 lane on the A2 motorway in the Netherlands, traffic congestion is still down by 96%. How about that for "induced demand"?
But London is a lot bigger and the M25 is a lot busy. I don't think you would notice a different unless you have 10-12 lanes all the way around, and even then it would most probably need widening again...and it would cost a huge amount as the M25 is very long.
__________________
"BEFORE WE MARRY...I HAVE A SECRET!"

I <3 London
poshbakerloo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 3rd, 2011, 08:13 PM   #1987
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,615
Likes (Received): 19410

It cost so much because they've been dragging this out since forever. Cost will only increase over time, especially because construction cost inflates faster than the general price levels.

First of all, M25 should've been finished in the early 70's, and upgraded in the late 80's and now again. Instead, the first section of M25 didn't open until 1975, and wasn't completed until 1986. Before 1982, large sections were missing. M25 really was a late-comer.

Not much tax money have been spent on major road projects in the UK in the last 20 years compared to other countries. It's about time these tax pounds begin to roll again and get the most important economic area of the country moving again!
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 3rd, 2011, 08:58 PM   #1988
Comfortably Numb
Goddess of Winter
 
Comfortably Numb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 2,521
Likes (Received): 309

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
It cost so much because they've been dragging this out since forever. Cost will only increase over time, especially because construction cost inflates faster than the general price levels.

First of all, M25 should've been finished in the early 70's, and upgraded in the late 80's and now again. Instead, the first section of M25 didn't open until 1975, and wasn't completed until 1986. Before 1982, large sections were missing. M25 really was a late-comer.

Not much tax money have been spent on major road projects in the UK in the last 20 years compared to other countries. It's about time these tax pounds begin to roll again and get the most important economic area of the country moving again!
Problem is Chris, the combined power of Britain's environmentalists and the NIMBY's is often a major stumbling block for any new road building, even grade separated dual carriageways such as the A34 Newbury By-pass, which isn't even a motorway, but almost never got built. The Western Orbital Motorway in the West Midlands was a great project that would have eased so much traffic in the Black Country urban area if built in the late 80's / early 90's as planned (when the money was available), but the NIMBY's prevented it.
Comfortably Numb no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 3rd, 2011, 09:03 PM   #1989
Penn's Woods
Deadpan Snarker
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 6,247
Likes (Received): 781

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I didn't say that....
I know. I was kidding you, sort of.
Penn's Woods no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 3rd, 2011, 10:52 PM   #1990
Map Guy
Cartographic Nutjob
 
Map Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Bristol
Posts: 115
Likes (Received): 16

Okay how about this a (slightly) sensible solution to ease the congestion on the south and west parts of the M25 whilst at the same time providing some much superior links to other major routes in the country.

image hosted on flickr


Red being new build projects, yellow being upgrades to existing routes and the blue for more speculative roads that might not be necessary.
__________________
James

Britain's Lost Motorway Network: My Flickr set of map scans A collection of all the bits of motorway we didn't build that made it onto a map. And a few that weren't planned at all!

The rest of my Flickr photos - motorsport, roads and more!
Map Guy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 4th, 2011, 01:31 AM   #1991
piotr71
Registered User
 
piotr71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Beskidy
Posts: 4,300

Slightly outdated video, but still nice to watch.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7573486.stm

piotr71 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 4th, 2011, 02:19 AM   #1992
Comfortably Numb
Goddess of Winter
 
Comfortably Numb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 2,521
Likes (Received): 309

Quote:
Originally Posted by Map Guy View Post
Okay how about this a (slightly) sensible solution to ease the congestion on the south and west parts of the M25 whilst at the same time providing some much superior links to other major routes in the country.

image hosted on flickr


Red being new build projects, yellow being upgrades to existing routes and the blue for more speculative roads that might not be necessary.
Map Guy,

I like your map, but in all honesty, there is no real need to improve anything that far south. If anything, it's the commuter towns and cities to the west, north and east of Greater London that need connecting. Combine that with a motorway that takes all non-London traffic away from London and you have Comfortably Numb's trademark M10 route, running from Basingstoke to Medway, crossing the M3, M4, M40, M1 (south of Luton), A1(M) (at Stevenage), M11 (at Stansted Airport), then down to the M2 and M20 in Medway Kent, with a new crossing being built across the Thames estuary. This would alleviate so much traffic, especially on the M25. All of the non-London bound traffic from the continent on Numb's patented and new M10 would take that route, rather than clog up the M25. My M10 would also link large towns/cities such as Luton, Reading and Southend. It would take so much traffic away from the M25 and much of the motorway could be built on existing 'A' roads, especially the Hampshire, Berkshire and Hertfordshire stretches). 3 lanes either side would do the job too. The impact to the countryside would be minimal and would take traffic away from congested 'A' roads.

Should I email my suggestions to whichever **** is the Transport Minister?
Comfortably Numb no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 4th, 2011, 07:39 AM   #1993
Penn's Woods
Deadpan Snarker
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 6,247
Likes (Received): 781

British signage questions:

I'm watching Top Gear, and finally learning how to use Street View (so I could pose these questions about signs spotted on the show, but it's good to know).

On this one, does "Services" on the exit sign just mean that there's stuff at that exit as opposed to a service area? (Because I can't find a service area)

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie...12,176.2,,2,-5

AND on this one, what's the little square thing next to the A303?

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie...2,235.72,,2,-5

Apologies if these links don't bring you to the signs - never done this before....
Penn's Woods no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 4th, 2011, 06:04 PM   #1994
Stainless
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Pyeongnae
Posts: 420
Likes (Received): 34

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxx☢Power View Post
I'm guessing it refers to this.. Are those blue and white signs "unofficial"?
Yes, the blue and white signs are inside the service area, so you are no longer on the highway but on private property.

As for the yellow square next to Andover, it might be an alternative route. With these, when a major road needs to be shut, they can place a temporary sign saying 'follow ㅁ' and the rest of the route is already marked out on existing signposts.
Stainless no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 4th, 2011, 07:06 PM   #1995
sotonsi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,563

Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
On this one, does "Services" on the exit sign just mean that there's stuff at that exit as opposed to a service area? (Because I can't find a service area)
Only official Service areas that meet full requirements for an MSA (motorway service area) can be signed on motorways. As for where it is, it's a little hard to see as it's not directly off the junction, and the industrial estate hides it a bit, but it's right next to the junction
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxx☢Power View Post
Are those blue and white signs "unofficial"?
Thankfully, those blue and white signs in service areas are unofficial, and will never ever get approval from anyone with half a brain. They break almost every convention for traffic signs in the book at MOTO service areas like that. Particularly bad is using a sign that looks very similar to the 'real world' "No Pedestrians" sign to mark pedestrian crossings. CBRD has a big go at them here. The first bit you linked to (a step or two back) is surprising - a proper speed limit sign, triangles for warnings - proper signs. I do like it that they demand you go straight on, when you have no other choice - they need to learn how to direct people (after all, they did just force everyone before that sign to turn right into the car's car park with their manditory turn right sign).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stainless View Post
As for the yellow square next to Andover, it might be an alternative route. With these, when a major road needs to be shut, they can place a temporary sign saying 'follow ㅁ' and the rest of the route is already marked out on existing signposts.
It is a diversionary/alternative route.
sotonsi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 4th, 2011, 08:15 PM   #1996
DanielFigFoz
Registered User
 
DanielFigFoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: No fixed abode
Posts: 4,434
Likes (Received): 896

Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
British signage questions:

I'm watching Top Gear, and finally learning how to use Street View (so I could pose these questions about signs spotted on the show, but it's good to know).

On this one, does "Services" on the exit sign just mean that there's stuff at that exit as opposed to a service area? (Because I can't find a service area)

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie...12,176.2,,2,-5

AND on this one, what's the little square thing next to the A303?

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie...2,235.72,,2,-5

Apologies if these links don't bring you to the signs - never done this before....

The sign with "services" means that there is a normal service area at that exit.

The little square is a detour route (it identifies where people on a particular detour should go)
DanielFigFoz no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 4th, 2011, 09:19 PM   #1997
Map Guy
Cartographic Nutjob
 
Map Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Bristol
Posts: 115
Likes (Received): 16

Quote:
Originally Posted by Comfortably Numb View Post
Map Guy,

I like your map, but in all honesty, there is no real need to improve anything that far south. If anything, it's the commuter towns and cities to the west, north and east of Greater London that need connecting. Combine that with a motorway that takes all non-London traffic away from London and you have Comfortably Numb's trademark M10 route, running from Basingstoke to Medway, crossing the M3, M4, M40, M1 (south of Luton), A1(M) (at Stevenage), M11 (at Stansted Airport), then down to the M2 and M20 in Medway Kent, with a new crossing being built across the Thames estuary. This would alleviate so much traffic, especially on the M25. All of the non-London bound traffic from the continent on Numb's patented and new M10 would take that route, rather than clog up the M25. My M10 would also link large towns/cities such as Luton, Reading and Southend. It would take so much traffic away from the M25 and much of the motorway could be built on existing 'A' roads, especially the Hampshire, Berkshire and Hertfordshire stretches). 3 lanes either side would do the job too. The impact to the countryside would be minimal and would take traffic away from congested 'A' roads.

Should I email my suggestions to whichever **** is the Transport Minister?
That M10 route you suggest would indeed alleviate that sort of problem, but what you must realise is that the vast majority of freight in the UK is transported by lorries, many of which come from Europe or take containers from ports. Combine this with traffic flows to and from the channel tunnel and its ports and there is a large demand placed on the M25, M26 and M20 as the only realistic route to these destinations from the whole of the UK. Subsequently there is far too much traffic on the southern side of the M25. My idea works by seperating the local and regional traffic which would continue to use the existing M25 and an M62 Relief Road-style motorway parallel to the M25 which would take long distance traffic and would only have junctions with the M26, M25/A21, M23, A3 and finally the M25 once more before leaving to link up with the M3, M4 and A34, utilising the old M31 route and the A329(M). The other routes are merely upgrades that would help this scheme deliver it's full potential, by getting the long distance traffic off the M25, leaving it free to deal with the local and regional traffic.

Your M10 scheme is simply linking up commuter towns around the M25, where actual traffic flow between them is probably quite minor in comparison to commuter traffic in and out of London (which will almost exclusively be dealt with by the radial routes, eg the M1 for Luton, M3 for Basingstoke, etc etc) as well as the long distance traffic which will head onto the M25 at Sevenoaks, and won't be able to realistically use your route as a logical alternative until the M40 in all honesty. In that respect you could argue that extending your M10 around to the north of Crawley and round to the M26/M20 junction may seem like the logical solution, but then who would be encouraged to deviate so far off the course of the M25 to go all the way round to Basingstoke when a route following the existing course of the M25 much more closely would both be quicker and less likely to have a greater impact on the countryside and surrounding environment? I admit my scheme does nothing to alleviate M25 congestion in the home counties, but barring the existing widening projects, junction improvements and ATM, I'm not sure what would improve that area.
__________________
James

Britain's Lost Motorway Network: My Flickr set of map scans A collection of all the bits of motorway we didn't build that made it onto a map. And a few that weren't planned at all!

The rest of my Flickr photos - motorsport, roads and more!
Map Guy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 4th, 2011, 09:24 PM   #1998
Penn's Woods
Deadpan Snarker
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 6,247
Likes (Received): 781

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielFigFoz View Post
The sign with "services" means that there is a normal service area at that exit.

The little square is a detour route (it identifies where people on a particular detour should go)
Thanks (to you, sotonsi, stainless and Maxx Power!) - are there lots of places where the service area's not directly accessed from the highway it's serving like that? When I saw "services" on the sign but no service area on the map (along the highway), I just assumed that they were saying that if you get off here you'll be in a commercial area where you can find petrol and food and so on.

I like signs; they add to the sense of place. When I've got Top Gear on and I see them pass a sign, I'll pause so I can read it and then figure out where they are.
Penn's Woods no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 4th, 2011, 10:04 PM   #1999
DanielFigFoz
Registered User
 
DanielFigFoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: No fixed abode
Posts: 4,434
Likes (Received): 896

No, the UK has a large amount of road side services, and it it isn't common for people to be taken off the main roads for it.
DanielFigFoz no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 6th, 2011, 04:16 PM   #2000
PortoNuts
Registered User
 
PortoNuts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Porto
Posts: 24,095
Likes (Received): 7514

__________________
Got one head for money and one head for sin..
PortoNuts no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
highways, motorway, united kingdom

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium