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Old January 9th, 2011, 11:02 PM   #2021
Map Guy
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Let's take a closer look at your proposals Daniel, with my comments in italics:

-Belfast-Derry motorway
As already pointed out, a D2 upgrade would suffice perfectly

-Derry-Southbound motorway, with an cross border link to Athlone, to serve traffic to the Republic
The A5 has in planning a D2 upgrade to the border which is being mostly financed by the Republic. Anything south of there, barring upgrades to the N2, are completely unnecessary.

-The M27 should go from Plymouth to Dover
As I've pointed out many times in this thread, it is completely pointless. Proper D2 upgrades between Pool and Brighton yes, but nothing more is needed.

-The North Wales Motorway should actually be built.
The A55 seems to be coping quite well just now.

-There should be a London-Southend motorway
As in the M13? I happen to think the A13, A12 and A127 function well enough for this location.

-The M2 should be extended to Dover to meet the M27 and north to at least the M25, to actually link it to the rest of the motorway network.
Again pointless, the A2 is of a better standard to the west of the M2 than the motorway preceeding it. At the eastern end, the A2 copes fine as the M20 deals with most Channel traffic.

-The A23 south of Gatwick should be the M23
The D2 and in parts D3 A23 is fine for a southern arterial to Brighton, no need for motorway.

-The A3 should become the M3
With the Hindhead Tunnel nearing completion, this route is fine as it is, with no reasonable justification to upgrade to motorway status.

-The M3 should become the M30
See above.

-There should be two motorway ring roads inside the M25, one around the congestion charge zone and one roughly following the Northern Circular Road and one a bit further out than the Southern Circular Road, the latter being the most urgent.
Sigh...I presume you've seen the Westway? Whilst being an amazing feat of engineering, somehow I don't think the rest of it will be finished anytime soon. A ring further out is needed on the southern side, but it won't happen without widespread home clearance, and I wouldn't recommend holding your breath for that to happen. On the North Circular, some upgrades in specific areas like the S2 section for example would work wonders. It doesn't need a complete overhaul.

-Since the M10 number has been freed up, the A1 should become the M10.
THE WHOLE OF IT!!!
The most heavily used part is being upgraded to motorway through Yorkshire, yet a coupe of gaps will remain. It certainly doesn't need renumbering, but a complete motorway from Doncaster to Newcastle would be ideal.

-The M4 should be extended to Pembroke
Considering the A48 is D2 to the A40 anyway, I think only a few small improvements to the A40 beyond here are required, and one is being built as we speak.

-There should be a M36 from Bournemouth to Salisbury and through to Bristol via Bath
D2 bypasses and stretches along busier parts would suffice more than enough in comparison to ploughing a motorway through rural Wiltshire.

-The M8 shoud be 3x3 and the M8 the whole way
Newhouse to Baillieston will get the go ahead soon, as for further widening, that's probably only a matter of time also.

-There should be an M50 from Stoke to Derby and Nottingham
You mean the M64. The A50 was the replacement for this and despite poor designs at either end, performs well considering. Junction upgrades on both the M6 and M1, or even an alternative route round Stoke to the M6 would solve most of the problems this route suffers.

-The M11 to Norwich would meet an M134 from Kings Lynn to Ipswich which would then go through Colchester and Chelmsford to London, to link Ipswich to the capital.
The upgraded A11, again taking place as we speak, will provide a D2 link to Norwich. A motorway driving down the heart of East Anglia wouldn't go down well I imagine and isn't really necessary, after Ipswich, your route is unnecessary due to the A12 which is also undergoing some junction improvements and is all but motorway in name for much of its length.

-The Cambridge branch of the M11, presumably renamed M14, would meet the M10 in Peterborough.
Probably the first realistic suggestion in this list that isn't already being built. It doesn't have to be a motorway, but an upgraded A14 between Cambridge and Huntingdon is one of the most required upgrades in the country.

-The M180 should be extended to Grimsby in the East to the M62 at Huddersfield in the West.
Apart from being virtually empty except for port traffic, and the A180 doing absolutely fine, the eastern extension is completely unnecessary, whilst your western extension would get little use until crossing the M1, where it would be useful in cutting the M1-M62 corner at Leeds. In theory then what is needed is not an M180 extension but a corner-cutting route that could probably take the number M68.

-There should be a series of links between cities on the would be M10 to cities on the M6.
I don't quite know what to say to this...

-The M65 should be extended through Bradford to the M10 to Leeds (also serving as a northern ringroad)
Would probably see a fair bit of use, but the North Yorkshire moors and dales might be a bit of an issue, being part of a National Park.

In essence, what we can deduce from these proposals is that you've taken a look at a main road map of the UK, seen where the gaps in the blue lines are, and filled them in. You severely underestimate the usefulness of D2 A roads and yet at the same time completely ignore some of the most congested parts of the country in dire need of improvements. All in all, a very mis-guided examination of the UK road network.

What I suggest is to listen to what some of the other contributors here and on SABRE say in regard to needed projects, and brush up on some UK road history at both CBRD and Pathetic Motorways. That way you'll have a rough and ready knowledge that will allow you to have a decent debate with other road enthusiasts on the requirements of the British network. Don't take any of this the wrong way, I value your opinions as it's interesting to hear what other people have to say on this subject, I'd just rather you know a little more for your own sake before someone comes along and calls you a complete idiot or whatever, you know what forums are like!
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Old January 9th, 2011, 11:06 PM   #2022
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The current British motorway network is pretty good in connecting all major population centers. It may need some more spurs or some missing links. The geography doesn't require a large motorway network, but it does require ample roadway capacity. Look at the number of large (100.000+) cities M1 serves for example.
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Old January 9th, 2011, 11:08 PM   #2023
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Okay, you may be right in a lot of things but one of those websites, I don't remember which, does talk about the unsuitability of links towards Southend, for example.
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Old January 10th, 2011, 01:31 AM   #2024
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Map Guy View Post
Let's take a closer look at your proposals Daniel, with my comments in italics:
]

-The M27 should go from Plymouth to Dover
As I've pointed out many times in this thread, it is completely pointless. Proper D2 upgrades between Pool and Brighton yes, but nothing more is needed.

-The A23 south of Gatwick should be the M23
The D2 and in parts D3 A23 is fine for a southern arterial to Brighton, no need for motorway.

-The A3 should become the M3
With the Hindhead Tunnel nearing completion, this route is fine as it is, with no reasonable justification to upgrade to motorway status.

-The M3 should become the M30
See above.
I know all these roads quite well and must say your answers are very reasonable. Actually, more than reasonable. Only thing I would consider again is A27. Actually, A27 and A259. I would really see a need for a D2 by-pass for Bexhill and Hastings and would love to see(not counting D2 extension to Brighton) some plans of reconstruction existing Chichester's by-pass(just get rid of most roundabouts on it).

M3 should not get any new number indeed, however if it had extra lanes from J14 to J8 and from J3 to J2 wouldn't bad idea.
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Old January 10th, 2011, 01:37 AM   #2025
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You mean the M12/M13? There's no Schipol-sized airport sitting on Maplin Sands, which was the justification for the routes to the airport beyond-Southend (and at least 1 four-track railway).

You have the A13 and A127 which don't cause any problems.

With 2 mostly grade-separated DCs to the edge of the urban area, as well as two decent railway routes.
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Old January 10th, 2011, 02:51 AM   #2026
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I would like a Manchester-Sheffield motorway. The M67 was meant to do this?

Another thought I had would be another cross route similar to the M62 but further south...

M6 at Newcastle/Stoke - Derby - M1 at Nottingham -Newark - Lincoln...

For part of this the A50 could be used/upgraded...M50?
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Old January 10th, 2011, 06:18 AM   #2027
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The current British motorway network is pretty good in connecting all major population centers. It may need some more spurs or some missing links. The geography doesn't require a large motorway network, but it does require ample roadway capacity. Look at the number of large (100.000+) cities M1 serves for example.
I disagree. The network is pretty good, but there are many gaps to be plugged and there are many major cities without a motorway (or even major trunk road connection at all), for example Newcastle-Edinburgh, Manchester-Sheffield and London-Norwich & East Anglia.
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Old January 10th, 2011, 09:16 PM   #2028
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielFigFoz View Post
Okay, you may be right in a lot of things but one of those websites, I don't remember which, does talk about the unsuitability of links towards Southend, for example.
It does indeed, Pathetic Motorways discusses the M13 which was designed to go to the south of Southend! Sotonsi has it wrapped up nicely in his post above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by poshbakerloo View Post
I would like a Manchester-Sheffield motorway. The M67 was meant to do this?

Another thought I had would be another cross route similar to the M62 but further south...

M6 at Newcastle/Stoke - Derby - M1 at Nottingham -Newark - Lincoln...

For part of this the A50 could be used/upgraded...M50?
Yes the Ministry of Transport felt much the same in the early 70s, hence the planning of the M64 which never ended up being built, instead we have an upgraded A50 which is only let down at it's two ends by poor junction designs, and the M6Toll which I think we can all agree was a complete waste of time.
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Old January 11th, 2011, 09:01 PM   #2029
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The current British motorway network is pretty good in connecting all major population centers. It may need some more spurs or some missing links. The geography doesn't require a large motorway network, but it does require ample roadway capacity. Look at the number of large (100.000+) cities M1 serves for example.
Fortunately the 1950s planners were visionary and made 3-lanes motorways. It would be far worse today otherwise.
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Old January 11th, 2011, 09:11 PM   #2030
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Indeed, a lot of motorways had 3 lanes, but many have since been expanded to that.
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Old January 11th, 2011, 10:18 PM   #2031
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Map Guy View Post


Yes the Ministry of Transport felt much the same in the early 70s, hence the planning of the M64 which never ended up being built, instead we have an upgraded A50 which is only let down at it's two ends by poor junction designs, and the M6Toll which I think we can all agree was a complete waste of time.
Using google maps I can created this to show the route I thought of. I've tried to make it as realistic as possible by missing as many buildings as possible, which is what I'm sure they would do anyway...

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?hl=...775118469f834a
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Old January 11th, 2011, 10:33 PM   #2032
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Not by me.
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Old January 11th, 2011, 11:59 PM   #2033
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Some brilliant things on that video from one of our Overseas Territories - a 25 speed limit sign (as well as a 30 one), a lack of official signs leading to a ton of unofficial ones for restaurants and such. And there's more Cayman Islands from that youtube user.

There's also the sideways traffic lights on gantries, the head height green street name signs and centre turning lanes from the USA, which it has close links, being their Tax Haven of choice...

There's capital letter direction signage and a lack of the road numbers that are there.
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Old January 12th, 2011, 12:23 AM   #2034
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Indeed, that user has a few videos. The signs and markings are an interesting mix of US and UK. I don't get how the Cayman turning lanes are any different from those on Britain
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Old January 12th, 2011, 03:26 AM   #2035
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Honestly aside from a few signs and cars and the other side of the road it would like look Florida, very similar to the US indeed.
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Old January 12th, 2011, 07:44 PM   #2036
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Gibraltar:



Bermuda:

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Old January 12th, 2011, 07:46 PM   #2037
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielFigFoz View Post
Gibraltar:


Bermuda:
NO! Gibraltar is SPANISH! (Sorry for the comment, but it's the only thing I can say)
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Old January 12th, 2011, 07:55 PM   #2038
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NO! Gibraltar is SPANISH!
It's not, since 300 years. Get over it and stop being chauvinistic.
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Old January 12th, 2011, 08:00 PM   #2039
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NO! Gibraltar is SPANISH! (Sorry for the comment, but it's the only thing I can say)
Its a British territory. Its residents are hugely supportive of British rule too.
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Old January 12th, 2011, 08:57 PM   #2040
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NO! Gibraltar is SPANISH! (Sorry for the comment, but it's the only thing I can say)


Actually you could have said nothing at all.
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