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Old May 14th, 2011, 09:37 PM   #2321
bleetz
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So you want a good southern expressway there (2+2, I suppose?) yet you don't want a motorway to the point that you think that we are stupid dumbasses? A 2+2 expressway (with hard shoulders) is basically a motorway with tractors and mopeds. And there are plenty of 2+2 motorways around, nobody here mentioned a 3+3. So the difference between your proposal and something that you're really enthusiastically oppose is actually not that great. Unless I am missing something.
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Old May 14th, 2011, 11:11 PM   #2322
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I oppose crappy reasoning that is based on lies and undermines the case for improvements.

My point about expressway (no hard shoulders - they aren't even considered essential for motorways now - I'm talking about a road like Havant to Chichester, or Arundel to Worthing, the whole way, if you are lucky) is that you won't get a motorway. I frankly don't care if it's blue or green signs on the road, but pushing for blue is another obstacle (though less than making the case all about the very minor, if existent at all 'national importance' crap like "fast route from Southampton to the continent" based off an inability to read a map).

My point about 3+3 is that the M25-M20 is mostly that (where not more lanes) and that 2+2 means elephant racing, meaning hold ups as a lorry limited to 56mph overtakes a lorry limited to 55mph (can happen on 3+3, but you can avoid them by using the third lane) - elephant racing on the South Coast renders your M25 hold ups point null and void, as you'll get held up on the South Coast route.

The difference between what I oppose and what I would love to see on the South Coast is very little in terms of construction, but massively different in terms of reasoning: I don't object to the road, I object to the reasons.

There's a reason that I am enthusiastically opposing the idiocy - because this myth of the M25 being a (lot) longer way around from Southampton to Dover won't die, even after empirical evidence. The pushing of this myth means that the idea cannot be taken seriously, especially as it's been the front and centre case from several people who are pushing a South Coast Motorway in this thread, rather than actual things based on facts like local and regional reasons to build it, which are almost invisible.
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Old May 14th, 2011, 11:40 PM   #2323
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M20, as seen from the Eurostar in summer 2008:





This picture I don't know exactly where it was taken. All I know is that it was taken in UK from Eurostar train:

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Old May 15th, 2011, 12:19 AM   #2324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
This picture I don't know exactly where it was taken. All I know is that it was taken in UK from Eurostar train:

That's the M2 Medway Viaducts, the one in the foreground was built at the same time as High Speed 1, when they upgraded the M2 there from 2+2 to 4+4.
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Old May 15th, 2011, 12:39 AM   #2325
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Southampton to Folkestone by the Google Maps suggested route is 143 miles (M3, M25, M20). Via he present south coast route it is 135 miles. Bare in mind the former route is motorway without tight curves, corners etc. Using http://www.daftlogic.com/projects-go...calculator.htm to plot a rough distance along the south coast from Chichester to Folkestone, plus adding the Google Maps distance for Southampton-Chichester gives 120 miles. Not a dramatically shorter route, but shorter none the less.

More of an important reason in my opinion is to provide an alternative route to the M25; even if it was slightly longer it would still be a more attractive route than the M25. A single route around London is always going to be insufficient in my opinion, particularly on the West/South West side.

I don't really care what they call it, whether it is classified as a motorway or not, and neither do I believe the average driver does who doesn't ride an invalid carriage, horse, bicycle etc. As long as it's at least 2x2 with grade separation (no roundabouts etc) and decent alignment I don't mind whether the signs are green and it's called the South Coast Garden Path.
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Old May 15th, 2011, 02:37 AM   #2326
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If you use the A259 east of Breznett, then you have to allow the use of not using the recommended route and going via Guildford on the northern route. For Dover and the Channel Tunnel, Google's recommended route (with pins at Rye and Pevensey to get the route onto the South Coast route west of Breznett) goes via the Trunk road, which goes via Ashford. The A31 & M25 route takes off the 8 mile difference you have. Lets compare apples with apples, shall we? - I have two different comparisons upthread, and the difference is a mile for each.

I can't see how you can take off 15 miles by straightening along the South Coast either - you can get a few between Hastings and Folkestone (though I doubt people in Hastings would want a decent route in that direction, but rather towards Ashford. Enviromental impact and engineering studies wouldn't like the route over Romney Marsh either - it's a hypothetical shortening, but not one that would ever see the light of day if a South Coast Motorway or whatever came into play), but not that many. West of Hastings you might lose a whole mile.

Southampton to Dover sort of journeys would be better served by 'POLO' than a South Coast route - Gatwick is closer to the direct line than Brighton. They are an irrelevancy (not least because of the low frequency with which they are made) for discussion of the South Coast Motorway. This is my point.
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Old May 15th, 2011, 04:13 PM   #2327
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Three motorways that could be constructed (Although probably never will)

South Coast Motorway...
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?hl=...84,2.90863&z=9

Birmingham West Motorway...
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?hl=...4bd2d5799&z=10

Cross Country Motorway...
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?hl=...18469f834a&z=9

I've tried to do it so it misses built up areas and woodland area, and also so that it uses upgraded A roads in several places...
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Old May 15th, 2011, 05:53 PM   #2328
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They might be constructed, especially the South Coast motorways. But it will probably take a long time for any government to realise its need.
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Old May 15th, 2011, 07:32 PM   #2329
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Got a couple more pictures of the M2 viaducts. These were taken from the North Downs Way National trail (which I walked the entire length of last summer) which actually crosses the Medway next to the motorway as there's no other bridge nearby. Rather an interesting experience walking nearly a mile with 70-80mph traffic on one side and a 50ft drop on the other! (In the space of less than a week I went over these bridges on foot, on the high-speed train and on the motorway).

First is what you see from the village of Cuxton.
Next two are at the top of the hill about a mile on, facing east.
Then from the footpath on the north side of the bridge - you can see how close the traffic is.
Last two are from the other bank of the Medway - the concrete bridge on the other side are where the second and third pictures were taken. The train is a high-speed 'Javelin' on its way to Dover or Canterbury.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink

Last edited by Sarepava; May 15th, 2011 at 07:43 PM.
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Old May 16th, 2011, 12:14 AM   #2330
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The first picture is so quaint.
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Old May 16th, 2011, 03:07 AM   #2331
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Old May 16th, 2011, 07:50 PM   #2332
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Old May 17th, 2011, 12:43 AM   #2333
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Old May 18th, 2011, 12:49 AM   #2334
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Quote:
Motorway limit could be raised to 80mph

The speed limit could be raised to 80mph on motorways under proposals to be unveiled by ministers.

At the same time limits on some rural roads could be cut as the Government looks to cut the number of people killed and seriously injured in car crashes. Proposals for an overhaul of speed limits are likely to be unveiled later in the year. Philip Hammond, the Transport Secretary, has signalled that he is ready to lift the 70mph limit to 80 if it is in the interests of the British economy.

Since taking office, the Government has sought to end what it described as the “war on the motorist” which has seen Whitehall funding for speed cameras shortly after the election. Mr Hammond has called for a “rigorous cost benefit analysis’ of speed limits” which would look at a wider range of issues than safety alone. "If you took just that view, you would have 10mph limits everywhere," Mr Hammond told The Daily Telegraph.

"We need to look at the value of safety benefits and the cost in terms of additional journey time," he said. "It is a bit of a no-brainer that is how it should be done." A DfT spokesman said last night: "We need to make sure that we are looking at the right criteria when considering what level speed limits should be set at. This means looking at the economic benefits of shorter journey times as well as considering the implications for road

Research carried out by the Department for Transport in 2009 revealed that 52 per cent of traffic on motorways was travelling at more than 70mph, with 37 per cent of cars being driven between 70 and 79 per cent mph.

But in doing so, Mr Hammond is likely to widen the rift between the Conservatives and their Liberal Democrat partners in the coalition. Chris Huhne, the Lib Dem climate change secretary, is understood to be objecting to increasing the speed limit because driving faster consumes more fuel. It is estimated that driving at 80mph consumes 20 per cent more fuel than travelling at 70mph.

Some Conservatives believe Mr Huhne is encouraging Green groups, who have accused Mr Hammond of “Top Gear politics” on speed limits. The 70mph limit was set by Tom Fraser, Labour’s transport minister just before Christmas 1965, after a series of motorway pile ups. The move to raise motorway limits have partly been triggered by the growing belief that cars that cars can now be driven safely at higher speeds.

This has been tacitly recognised by he Association of Chief Police Officers, whose “10 per cent plus 2mph” guidelines mean the drivers already do not face prosecution unless they are driving at more than 79mph. Last night an ACPO spokesman said no decision had been made on whether the same guidance would apply if the speed limit was raised. “It is purely hypothetical now, it is something we would look at after the event.”

While raising the motorway speed limit will be the most eye-catching initiative, ministers are also ready to cut others where it is felt they are two high, with single carriageway roads the likeliest candidate for limit reductions. In 2009 a strategy document by the Department for Transport which voiced concern at the number of deaths and injuries on such roads, even though compliance with the 60mph limit was good.

“The high casualty figures suggest therefore that speed limits are not at the appropriate level on some of these roads.” The move to update speed limits was welcomed by Stephen Glaister, the director of the RAC Foundation. “We should not be prescriptive about speed limits. The existing limits are not right just because they’ve been around for years.

“Traffic conditions change over time as do policy priorities. If there is good evidence to support a case for putting limits up – or down – then we should do so.” Highway authorities around the country are in the final stages of a comprehensive review of speed limits of A roads in their area, which is due to be completed by the end of the year. The first stage of the Government’s road safety strategy is set to be unveiled by Mr Hammond today with the publication of a “strategic framework”.

It is expected that it will contain proposals to give police the power to issue fixed penalty notices for a number of minor motoring offences, such as tailgating and undertaking. This would mean motorists would receive a fine and three points on their licence without the need for drivers to be taken to court.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/...-to-80mph.html
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Old May 18th, 2011, 02:52 AM   #2335
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The 80mph speed limit seems a bit pointless. So many parts are that busy you can't get over 50mph, even if you wanted!
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Old May 18th, 2011, 03:46 AM   #2336
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Everybody is already doing 80 Which means that everybody would be doing 90. That's 145 km/h which is pretty good by any standards! And UK motorways are good enough to handle it, no doubt. I am sure people won't just drive at 90mph regardless of conditions. It is the maximum speed, not the minimum speed.
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Old May 18th, 2011, 10:36 AM   #2337
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80 miles per hour is a more credible speed limit than 70. 80 is also the most common speed limit in Europe.

The effects on fuel consumption are exaggerated, first trucks do not drive that fast and second, not everyone will actually drive 80 miles per hour. The V85 value will definitely not increase by 10 mph. On an individual, per-car basis, fuel consumption increases if you drive 80 instead of 70, but overall it doesn't make that much difference.

The effects on traffic safety are also exaggerated. The way some people become near-hysterical about the 80 mph trials the Netherlands is just simply ridiculous. Only 33 out of some 640 traffic fatalities occur on the motorways in the Netherlands, I assume it is similar in the United Kingdom, and nearly all of them are not speed-related.
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Old May 18th, 2011, 11:51 AM   #2338
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If the limit was raised to 80 mph, I would expect to see the change accompanied by advice to drivers that the limit would be more rigidly enforced than at present. At the moment, drivers can drive at 80 mph anyway in the knowledge that, as long as they are not driving irresponsibly, they will not be prosecuted. I am quite sure, however, that the authorities will not want the public to believe that if the limit is raised, it will be OK to drive at 90 mph.
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Old May 18th, 2011, 12:26 PM   #2339
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Because the difference between 80mph and 90mph is tremendous, right? We're all pathetic, Germans are the only ones who understand the concept of driving on highways and adjust their rules to real life. And it works. Speed doesn't kill, incompetent drivers kill. More money should be invested in education because it's better to prevent than to cure. It's not more dangerous to drive 170-180km/h in Germany than 80-100km/h here in The Netherlands. I'd say you have bigger chances of hitting a car here in Holland since everybody occupy all lanes and drive with the same speed, try switching lanes or overtaking or trying to catch an exit/entrance like that, it's frustrating.
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Old May 18th, 2011, 05:49 PM   #2340
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Pretty much just a pipe dream I'm guessing, and a lot of it is a scaled down version of the London Ringways, but there is some outside of the city aswell...

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?hl=...,1.454315&z=10
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