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Old February 17th, 2008, 03:49 PM   #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriszwolle View Post
It's kinda sad that they only build infrastructure to look good to foreigners and athletes, but they don't give a shit about their own inhabitants transportation needs. This road should have been completed decades ago.
Glasgow City Council have wanted this completed for about 20 years now, it was the “Greens” causing all the hold ups etc.
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Old February 18th, 2008, 12:36 AM   #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriszwolle View Post
It's kinda sad that they only build infrastructure to look good to foreigners and athletes, but they don't give a shit about their own inhabitants transportation needs. This road should have been completed decades ago.
It never ceases to amaze me how some games (especially the Olympics!) can be so important to all of a sudden start building highways everywhere. The Soviet Union built a 4-lane road from Moscow all the way to Poland just for the Olympics in Moscow in 1980. Now Poland and Ukraine sped up their construction of motorways just b/c of Euro 2012.
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Old February 18th, 2008, 04:38 AM   #263
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Build more roads and you will only cause more traffic and more demand for new roads. How about a new light rail or subway line instead of building a big concrete ribbon through the middle of Glasgow?

Thank God for the "greens." They are the reason you can be reasonably sure the water you drink and the air you breathe are safe and that there are trees still in existence.
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Old February 18th, 2008, 09:58 AM   #264
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Build more roads and you will only cause more traffic and more demand for new roads.
You are wrong. The right sentence should be: "Build more neighborhoods and you will only cause more traffic and more demand for new roads".

You just have to adjust your infrastructure to spatial changes and growing population. There is no point where you can say "we don't have to do anything about the roads anymore", while your population is still growing.
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Old February 18th, 2008, 10:10 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Chriszwolle View Post
You are wrong. The right sentence should be: "Build more neighborhoods and you will only cause more traffic and more demand for new roads".

You just have to adjust your infrastructure to spatial changes and growing population. There is no point where you can say "we don't have to do anything about the roads anymore", while your population is still growing.
It has been argued (and studied and cited in numerous journals such as the European Journal of Transport and Infrastructure Research) that limiting traffic congestion by constructing new roads can create an impression in the local community that now congestion has been negated the motor car is a better form of transport than any form of public transport. Thus you get a modal shift towards private transport when new road links are created.This very much depends on the mindset of the country involved, however.

I'd still say that I favour PT developments over motorway though. I'd rather there be rapid rail links or a pre-metro/stadtbahn system installed in favour of more motorways.
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Old February 18th, 2008, 10:43 AM   #266
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We all know what doing nothing to roads have led to: evergrowing traffic jams. The Netherlands and the UK are perfect examples of that, and Belgium is also heading up in T-jams.

Quote:
he motor car is a better form of transport than any form of public transport.
It is more efficient, and always will be, unless you live in ultra dense cities like Tokyo. But the majority of the cities are not that dense, thus the car will always be more efficient.

In many countries, it's not so much an issue as "more motorways", but "wider motorways". Especially in European countries, and the US, the network is pretty much okay, though the capacity hasn't been adjusted to population growth and spatial developments.

You cannot build endless seas of houses and new housing projects, without adjusting the roads. Even with a lot of good and fast public transportation, there will always be a lot of car traffic. New York is a good example of that.

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Thus you get a modal shift towards private transport when new road links are created.
This happens pretty much anyway. For example, in the Netherlands, they are constructing mass housing projects for double income households, often having two cars, because both work somewhere else. These new projects are badly linked with the roads, and the connecting roads are not improved. They (the government, planners etc) thought this would take away the car transportation needs.

They have been proved wrong with every spatial development. The manipulability is low.

British traffic jams costs the economy about 25 billion euro's annually. You can construct a lot of road widening projects for that money. I bet it's even like 5 - 10 times the annual road budget.
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Old February 18th, 2008, 11:58 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Chriszwolle View Post
We all know what doing nothing to roads have led to: evergrowing traffic jams. The Netherlands and the UK are perfect examples of that, and Belgium is also heading up in T-jams.



It is more efficient, and always will be, unless you live in ultra dense cities like Tokyo. But the majority of the cities are not that dense, thus the car will always be more efficient.

In many countries, it's not so much an issue as "more motorways", but "wider motorways". Especially in European countries, and the US, the network is pretty much okay, though the capacity hasn't been adjusted to population growth and spatial developments.

You cannot build endless seas of houses and new housing projects, without adjusting the roads. Even with a lot of good and fast public transportation, there will always be a lot of car traffic. New York is a good example of that.



This happens pretty much anyway. For example, in the Netherlands, they are constructing mass housing projects for double income households, often having two cars, because both work somewhere else. These new projects are badly linked with the roads, and the connecting roads are not improved. They (the government, planners etc) thought this would take away the car transportation needs.

They have been proved wrong with every spatial development. The manipulability is low.

British traffic jams costs the economy about 25 billion euro's annually. You can construct a lot of road widening projects for that money. I bet it's even like 5 - 10 times the annual road budget.
Quite a lot of this is very much road lobby rhetoric. I respect your opinion Chris, but saying that transit doesn't work unless the city is hyperdense is really rather stilted towards road building. Yes, transit won't work for SOME people with jobs that rely upon cars, but for the majority of people, as long as coverage is good, it can be just as quick to catch a train as it is to drive and usually results in being much cheaper.

The BVG in Berlin has 1.4 billion passengers carried on their network every year in a city with a metropolitan population of around 4.2 million give or take depending on which stats you read. This I think shows that transit CAN work in a city that isn't hyperdense and one that has a reasonable road network.

You can't just take away roads and expect people to take public transport unless the transit is good, I agree, but again as I said, a lot of it comes down to societal mindset and this is the key thing that needs to be changed. I personally hate large roads and cars clogging my neighbourhood which is one reason that I always liked my time in London because even though there were cars there for those silly enough to drive, they weren't overly noisy or in your face because the roads are narrow.
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Old February 18th, 2008, 12:16 PM   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Quite a lot of this is very much road lobby rhetoric. I respect your opinion Chris, but saying that transit doesn't work unless the city is hyperdense is really rather stilted towards road building. Yes, transit won't work for SOME people with jobs that rely upon cars, but for the majority of people, as long as coverage is good, it can be just as quick to catch a train as it is to drive and usually results in being much cheaper.
SOME = MOST in the Netherlands.

Coverage is the whole problem. It is technically possible to build a hyperdense public transportation network, to serve the majority of the population well. The costs of this kind of plans would be extraordinary and prohibitively expensive.

Per travelled mile, public transportation is very expensive.

An example:

Netherlands:

PT accumulate 23,1 billion traveller-kilometers.
Roads accumulate 141,9 billion traveller-kilometers.

Yet the amount of investments are the same per modality, hence the public transportation is over 6 times more expensive. Ofcourse, the traveller doesn't care about that, since they don't pay the full price for transportation.

This will increase exponential when PT is expanded to serve more people. Simply because the usage doesn't increase at the same rate with investments, making PT even more expensive per travelled mile. So, thechnically it's possible, but at what price? It is way cheaper to just add some lanes to motorways, and improve urban roads with small tunnels under traffic-light intersections, which improves traffic flow much more than public transportation.

Besides that, PT and roads are generally a different transportation demand. In the Netherlands, less than 15% of the commuters uses public transportation.
There is also the fact of "choice traveller", which means people having an actual choice between modality's. This is generally low, meaning people often don't have a good choice. In theory it's possible to reach all places in the country, yet at a much longer travel time than with a car. Even with very long traffic jams, the car is usually faster.

You have to understand, i am not opposed to public transportation, but with the limited budgets available, i think we have to make the right, and most realistic choice of investments.
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Old February 18th, 2008, 12:21 PM   #269
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SOME = MOST in the Netherlands.

Per travelled mile, public transportation is very expensive.
In some cases, yes. However, I would also counter that Australia, New Zealand and the USA spend proportionately FAR more of their budgets on transportation than European nations despite the fact that public transport provision and modal share is low in each of these countries.

True, subsidies do exist for PT and true taxpayers generally foot the bill, but roading costs too and road maintenance is incredibly expensive and the hidden costs associated with roads can mount up too.

Give me some time after my exams on wednesday and I'll be quite happy to dig out some proper academically written literature associated with this topic if you are interested.
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Old February 18th, 2008, 12:23 PM   #270
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For such a small extension, this is a very expensive project. Is it normal to be paying this much for this type of project in Scotland?
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Old February 19th, 2008, 06:48 PM   #271
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Interesting thread, I haven't seen this before. I have to say I agree with what people said a lot earlier in the thread about the signing on British motorways. It's something I feel quite strongly about- the big cities should be signed from further out than they are. The most notable for me is travelling south on the M6 from Scotland- Manchester and Liverpool should be signed much further out than they are. About 100km from the Scottish border you still get no signs to any big city, with only places like Blackpool and Preston placed on the signs. Manchester should certainly be on the signs right from the Scottish border in my opinion as the M6 runs very close to the city and it is the first major city that the motorway meets travelling south. You only see the first sign to Manchester on the M6 around the Preston area, which is ridiculously close! The sign designs though I think are very good, British signage is very clear in my opinion.
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Old February 23rd, 2008, 06:14 PM   #272
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Yes, there is a huge new one that I pass on the train every day near to the M5 near Birmingham, I think it's Parceline but I could be wrong. There are well over 100 loading bays, it must be almost a kilometre long.
You could probably multiply that by 3 when the new building comes on line. The midlands are a distribution centre, they also have much of the remaining manufacturing industry, hence to high degree of LGV traffic. My understanding is the the M6 & M62 have the highest levels of truck traffic in the UK as a percentage due to the industrial ares served by them.
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Old March 20th, 2008, 10:04 PM   #273
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I have two pics over here, made by me on a small trip to Northern Ireland in May 2007.
First one is the Northern Irish coastal road, not far from Belfast:

[IMG]http://i25.************/5y7t7c.jpg[/IMG]

This is a small rural road near Thorr's End (or whatsever it's called) It's just somewhere in the northeast:

[IMG]http://i28.************/14jw5xd.jpg[/IMG]

I know the last picture is taken from the right side of the road, but the guy who was riding the car just put it there for me to take a picture
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Old March 20th, 2008, 11:01 PM   #274
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That last pic looks pretty cool.
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Old March 21st, 2008, 10:23 AM   #275
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That is also the reason why I took it
The Northern Irish coast is very cool.
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Old March 21st, 2008, 08:26 PM   #276
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I know it is not a motorway or something but I done photorelation, couple weeks ago. From Wombwell to Barnsley(Interchange). It was also in other thread but it still may be intresting

http://picasaweb.google.com/mateuszw90/MyCommute
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Old March 23rd, 2008, 03:59 AM   #277
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Scotland does have motorways. Carlisle to Glasgow M74/A74M. M8 Greenock-Glasgow-Edinburgh
M9 Edinburgh-Stirling. M80 Glasgow-Stirling. M90 Edinburgh-Perth M77 Glasgow-Kilmarnock. plus several shorter sections. In addition many of Scotland's "A" roads are divided highways built virtually to Motorway standards with mostly grade separated junctions.e.g A9 Stirling-Perth. A90 Perth-Aberdeen. A1 Edinburgh-Dunbar. Biggest pressure in Scotland now is to convert the A9 between Perth and Inverness ( 105 miles ) to divided highway for its entire length. Right now it has but short stretches of divided highway.
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Old March 23rd, 2008, 11:02 AM   #278
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Northern Ireland only has 60 km of highways, and the road between Derry and Belfast is 2-lane for the longest section.
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Old April 24th, 2008, 02:27 PM   #279
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Maybe it's not the best place to ask, but still... What do those zig zag lines on British streets mean?
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Old April 24th, 2008, 02:30 PM   #280
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bus stop, when a bus need to park on road lane and do not have special place for that
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