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Old May 24th, 2012, 06:47 PM   #2901
sotonsi
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Originally Posted by Comfortably Numb View Post
It is an unnecessary mess that doesn't even connect 2 actual motorways anymore.
Really, since when? Was the A38(M) downgraded overnight yesterday, or is it the M6 that doesn't serve the interchange?

Gravelly Hill Interchange links all the roads it originally did, with them bearing both the same numbers and the same status as they did 40 years ago.
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I say knock it down, replace it with a more simply / less brutalist looking structure. Also, it could be done as part of a scheme to widen the entire M6 from the M42 near BHX to the M6 Toll / M54 north of Wolverhampton to 5 lanes either side, to cope with god-awful traffic that was bad enough a decade ago when I used to have to commute on that wretched motorway (god knows how bad it is now).
So you want rid of a brutalist structure, and propose that they do it while demolishing buildings to widen a brutalist viaduct

You want to spend millions on turning the one motorway junction in the area that is able to cope with the traffic into a lower powered junction that will cause congestion, while also wanting to spend billions on widening the mainline.
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Old May 24th, 2012, 08:31 PM   #2902
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Its an amazing piece of civil engineering but junctions of it's magnitude are commonplace in the us and Asia so it's not really that special
Have those Asian been built 40 years ago?
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Old May 24th, 2012, 08:44 PM   #2903
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Comfortably Numb View Post
Spaghetti junction in Birmingham is ugly and outdated, sorry. It is an unnecessary mess that doesn't even connect 2 actual motorways anymore. I say knock it down, replace it with a more simply / less brutalist looking structure. Also, it could be done as part of a scheme to widen the entire M6 from the M42 near BHX to the M6 Toll / M54 north of Wolverhampton to 5 lanes either side, to cope with god-awful traffic that was bad enough a decade ago when I used to have to commute on that wretched motorway (god knows how bad it is now).
I agree its not particularly pretty, but it does do its job. Widening the M6 through Birmingham will never ever happen as most of it is on a viaduct which will just cost way way too much. It would be better to make the M6 in Birmingham into a toll road, and the current M6 toll made free and maybe made dual 4 lanes. I think its a well designed high speed junction, about as good as they can get really.
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Old May 26th, 2012, 12:37 AM   #2904
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I think Birmingham has a system to be proud of, and I believe it is a waste of money to change a system that is actually working. Birmingham has a near perfect expressway through the city centre (Queensway) with tunnels through the actual centre, leading to the Aston Express Way and M6, with on Spaghetti another road leading to Erdington and Sutton Coldfield.

If you want to spend money on roads around the West Midlands, then maybe itīs time to take a look at the junction with the M6 and M5. Or the M42 between M40 and M6, where they have introduced hard shoulder running. Problem is, that every couple of miles, traffic is forced from the shoulder back onto the main carriageway, due to on-and off slips at junctions. Which makes shoulder running useless in my view...
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Old May 26th, 2012, 12:55 AM   #2905
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piotr71

Have those Asian been built 40 years ago?
Not so much the Asian ones but in the US
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Old May 26th, 2012, 05:05 PM   #2906
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I know, this is the reason why I asked such a question.
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Old May 26th, 2012, 05:18 PM   #2907
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post

(..)If you want to spend money on roads around the West Midlands, then maybe itīs time to take a look at the junction with the M6 and M5. Or the M42 between M40 and M6, where they have introduced hard shoulder running. Problem is, that every couple of miles, traffic is forced from the shoulder back onto the main carriageway, due to on-and off slips at junctions. Which makes shoulder running useless in my view...
I think the running shoulders there are just as efficient as any running shoulders could be. In my opinion their size, layout and signage has been done perfectly. In particular I am amazed how they wisely marked parking spots for broken down vehicles on emergency bays.

I rather think that the money should be spend on encouraging drivers to use left lane or running shoulder as left lane(signage, matrix or so). They just hate driving on it.
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Old May 26th, 2012, 05:27 PM   #2908
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Originally Posted by piotr71 View Post
I think the running shoulders there are just as efficient as any running shoulders could be. In my opinion their size, layout and signage has been done perfectly. In particular I am amazed how they wisely marked parking spots for broken down vehicles on emergency bays.

I rather think that the money should be spend on encouraging drivers to use left lane or running shoulder as left lane(signage, matrix or so). They just hate driving on it.
I disagree. Long queues of freight are forced from the shoulder into lane 1, and subsequently traffic in lane 1 has to make room by either slowing down, or moving to lane 2, where there is also traffic, which ultimately will result in congestion. And this procedure will be repeated after the next junction, and the one after that.
And when they did these massive roadworks years ago, to implement semi-shoulder running, one could expect that at least they repaired the surface. Itīs terrible! Itīs one of the worst quality stretch of motorways in Britain!
I agree with you about keep left encouragement.
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Old May 26th, 2012, 06:38 PM   #2909
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My point of view seem to be a little bit different, that's why I mentioned a lane discipline problem again. My observation let me state that apart of myself and those who leave motorway on a next junction, nobody else uses the hard shoulder there. Not even lorries*

It's obviously a generalization, though not far from the real situation.
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Old May 26th, 2012, 07:45 PM   #2910
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
I disagree. Long queues of freight are forced from the shoulder into lane 1, and subsequently traffic in lane 1 has to make room by either slowing down, or moving to lane 2, where there is also traffic, which ultimately will result in congestion. And this procedure will be repeated after the next junction, and the one after that.
Well if you were less of a keep left obsessive, you would see that it makes sense - there's large amounts of queueing traffic trying to get off the motorway at the peak - best to stack that on the shoulder, while lorries can just stay in lane 1 if staying on the motorway. You'd always have the problem of trying to get through the freight traffic to enter/leave the motorway no matter the set up.

Without lane drops, the queuing traffic would push lorries over a lane at each junction - as it did before the works. The VSL also helps - traffic is going to be moving all at the same speed - shoulder running doesn't happen above 50mph.

They upgraded it to allow 4 lanes through the junctions, but perhaps don't use it like that because it makes the problem you suggest worse.
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Old May 27th, 2012, 07:07 AM   #2911
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Originally Posted by Comfortably Numb View Post
Spaghetti junction in Birmingham is ugly and outdated, sorry. It is an unnecessary mess that doesn't even connect 2 actual motorways anymore. I say knock it down, replace it with a more simply / less brutalist looking structure. Also, it could be done as part of a scheme to widen the entire M6 from the M42 near BHX to the M6 Toll / M54 north of Wolverhampton to 5 lanes either side, to cope with god-awful traffic that was bad enough a decade ago when I used to have to commute on that wretched motorway (god knows how bad it is now).
Spaghetti Junction in Atlanta is better then Spaghetti Junction in Birmingham. In fact, Malfunction Junction in Birmingham(Alabama) is better.
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Old May 28th, 2012, 01:30 AM   #2912
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Roads and streets in Gibraltar

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Old May 29th, 2012, 02:04 AM   #2913
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Wrong thread
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Old May 29th, 2012, 02:12 AM   #2914
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???
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Old May 29th, 2012, 03:37 AM   #2915
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???
United Kingdom?

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Old May 29th, 2012, 12:09 PM   #2916
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It's the "Gibraltar is really Spanish, despite being British by treaty, popular vote and with far more legal standing that the places Spain claims on mainland Africa." troll, but this time done for a laugh - unlike what normally happens when that video is posted.
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Old May 29th, 2012, 12:45 PM   #2917
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It's the "Gibraltar is really Spanish, despite being British by treaty, popular vote and with far more legal standing that the places Spain claims on mainland Africa." troll, but this time done for a laugh - unlike what normally happens when that video is posted.
It's not about that, it is British Overseas Territory but it is not part of the United Kingdom.
British Overseas Territories are under UK jurisdictions but are not part of the UK

It was more of a joke rather than serious objection to discussing Gibraltar roads in this thread. That's why there was smiley at the end of my post
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Old May 29th, 2012, 01:09 PM   #2918
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I was responding to the original query about the wrong thread.

In EU terms, Gibraltar is part of the SW England constituency - sounds like part of the UK to me.
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Old May 29th, 2012, 01:18 PM   #2919
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Well if you were less of a keep left obsessive, you would see that it makes sense - there's large amounts of queueing traffic trying to get off the motorway at the peak - best to stack that on the shoulder, while lorries can just stay in lane 1 if staying on the motorway. You'd always have the problem of trying to get through the freight traffic to enter/leave the motorway no matter the set up.

Without lane drops, the queuing traffic would push lorries over a lane at each junction - as it did before the works. The VSL also helps - traffic is going to be moving all at the same speed - shoulder running doesn't happen above 50mph.

They upgraded it to allow 4 lanes through the junctions, but perhaps don't use it like that because it makes the problem you suggest worse.
I think it's also designed to reduce the impact of merging traffic joining busy motorways and causing the phantom jams that we see regularly. Well that's the theory at least. The idea is that there is no pressure to merge at the end of the slip road, as the shoulder is available to use as an extra lane until there is space to join the main running lanes of traffic.

The problem in practice is that people have this instinct to get into the main lanes of traffic as soon as possible when entering the motorway, the more aggressive cut others up in the process, causing hard breaking which leads to the phantom jams. Again its an issue about driver education than layout.
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Old May 29th, 2012, 04:18 PM   #2920
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So it seems like running hard shoulder is something like auxiliary lane between the junctions. It sounds like good idea.

But it still leaves issue of emergency response. What happens if there is an accident and all lanes and hard shoulders are jammed with cars?
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