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Old July 3rd, 2012, 02:24 PM   #2961
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle
The Madrid Radiales carry very little traffic. R-2: 9,300 vehicles, R-3; 14,100 vehicles, R-4; 8,100 vehicles & R-5; 10,500 vehicles.
Yes, a lot of statistics provided on a daily, monthly and annual basis. But what about certain periods of the day when it really matters. I find these statistics so relative, because there are tons of factors to consider.
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 02:35 PM   #2962
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They carry traffic specially on weekends.
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 02:56 PM   #2963
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And they have to carry little traffic, otherwise it wouldn't be much of an alternative express way.
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 03:04 PM   #2964
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
M6Toll carries only 35,000 vehicles on an average workday in Q1 2012. 5 years ago that was 45,000 vehicles per day. It's not a lot for a six-lane motorway in a densely populated country.
Indeed, but you miss my point. The M6Toll isn't suffering because of underuse - underuse via higher prices is it's business strategy to keep costs down, so less money is lost overall.
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 04:02 PM   #2965
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It's simply too expensive. Some French Toll Roads are also suffering from underusage, which also tend to be the most expensive ones.
1) How much is it?
2) What other toll facilities exist in the UK? I know of the Humber Bridge and the Dartford Crossing(s?)
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 04:07 PM   #2966
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
1) How much is it?
2) What other toll facilities exist in the UK? I know of the Humber Bridge and the Dartford Crossing(s?)
I think that's pretty much it. But with Dartford, that is the only way to cross the river so there is no fast free alternative, so it don't have the same issue.
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 04:13 PM   #2967
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There's the Severn Bridges (westbound only), and a few oddities like Dunham Bridge and Aldwark Bridge.
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 04:19 PM   #2968
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poshbakerloo

I think that's pretty much it. But with Dartford, that is the only way to cross the river so there is no fast free alternative, so it don't have the same issue.
There is a slow alternative: Blackwall Tunnel.
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 04:20 PM   #2969
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Or, depending on your destination, you could go around the other side of the M25....
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 04:26 PM   #2970
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
1) How much is it?
5.50 GBP or $ 8.60 for 27 miles.
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 04:30 PM   #2971
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So the choice is not necessarily between tolling and not tolling, but tolling, tolling at a reasonable price, and not tolling.

Would more people use it if it cost half that?
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 04:36 PM   #2972
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It should've been built as a government-operated road just like any other motorway. The British motorists pay enough taxes for it. It's not like the British government has a huge burden of new motorway construction in the past 20 years. Toll roads in a generally toll-free network don't work unless there are no alternatives like bridges and tunnels.
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 04:57 PM   #2973
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Would more people use it if it cost half that?
Yes, as shown by the figures from 7 or 8 years ago when the toll was £3. However not many more - 50%, so they would lose money compared to now on tolls, let alone the additional costs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
It should've been built as a government-operated road just like any other motorway. The British motorists pay enough taxes for it. It's not like the British government has a huge burden of new motorway construction in the past 20 years. Toll roads in a generally toll-free network don't work unless there are no alternatives like bridges and tunnels.
Indeed, though we'd be looking at roughly doubling M6T traffic to about 75k if the route was free. Massive increase in large vehicles, though still wouldn't avoid upgrading the route in the Black Country.
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 05:02 PM   #2974
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
It should've been built as a government-operated road just like any other motorway. The British motorists pay enough taxes for it. It's not like the British government has a huge burden of new motorway construction in the past 20 years. Toll roads in a generally toll-free network don't work unless there are no alternatives like bridges and tunnels.
Spot on. Sadly, it was constructed during an era in which the then Chancellor (and later, Prime Minister), Gordon Brown, was particularly keen in getting the private sector to do the government's work for it using Private Finance Initiative (PFI) contracts. (The road was planned much earlier than this, during the previous Conservative administration, but it was the Labour government that took the scheme forward.) That way, he was able to build hospitals, roads and upgrade the London Underground without having the expenditure show up in the public accounts. It was a great deception, and has saddled present and future taxpayers with liabilities for decades. Sadly, this method of financing can also produce sub-optimal solutions, as seen with the M6 Toll.
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 06:43 PM   #2975
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There is a slow alternative: Blackwall Tunnel.
lol or the ferry
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 08:25 PM   #2976
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
What other toll facilities exist in the UK? I know of the Humber Bridge and the Dartford Crossing(s?)
Tyne Tunnel

Last edited by Fatfield; July 3rd, 2012 at 08:33 PM.
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Old July 5th, 2012, 02:24 PM   #2977
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Lots of little bridges are tolled. The Tyne, Mersey (x2) and Dartford tunnels, the Humber, Severn (x2), Tamar and QE2 are the only ones on primary routes (that I can think of). The Itchen Bridge in Southampton is big and tolled, but not on a primary route.

As we've been speaking about the M6Toll - not sure the Weeford toll booth has ever been so busy (you'll see pictures on the news).

Watching on News 24, the other direction isn't closed and traffic seems typical, but the parallel A road is busier in that direction - that isn't a surprise, but isn't something you usually see so starkly.
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Old July 5th, 2012, 05:12 PM   #2978
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Isn't the A57 still a primary route at Dunham Bridge?
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Old July 5th, 2012, 05:30 PM   #2979
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Yes, it is - missed it.

The final (99% certain) A road one (in addition to the Dartford Crossing (A282), Tyne Tunnel (A19), Humber Bridge (A15), Dunham Bridge (A57), Tamar Bridge (A38) and Itchen Bridge (A3025)) is the A477 Cleddau Bridge to the north of Pembroke Dock.

There's several B road bridges, plus quite a few private roads. I remember one in Dorset that was half a mile's drive to a car park by a beach - you were paying for the car park, but it was a toll road and free car park.

Other than Woolwich, I don't think any of the vehicle ferries/floating bridges are free.

The Cob at Porthmadog was tolled until relatively recently (before the bypass of the town), and Scotland abolished it's tolls on various bridges a few years ago.
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Old July 5th, 2012, 06:31 PM   #2980
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I forgot about the Cleddau Bridge, even though I spent two weeks near it in 2006 and passed over several times. A beautiful estuary.
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