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Old November 25th, 2012, 09:51 PM   #3161
geogregor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piotr71 View Post
Causing congestion? How is it possible if there is traffic, which easily could fit on two lanes instead of 4? Actually, 50% of drivers gather on lane 4 congesting it for no obvious reason. Temporary closing (off peak hours) lane 4 would probably encourage them to obey basic traffic rule - keep to the left.
I honestly don't see the point of closing lanes off peak. Going further, should we close third lane on 3-lane motorways at night? There would be enough capacity on 2 lanes at night.
Do it just because some people don't stick to the left? It doesn't make any sense. This is not the best way do educate drivers.
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Old November 25th, 2012, 10:02 PM   #3162
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A 406 Brent Cross-Chiswick

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Hanger lane roundabout. One of the busiest in London.
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Successful Olek and his S class!
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Another busy roundabout. Chiswick roundabot.
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Old November 25th, 2012, 10:07 PM   #3163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
I honestly don't see the point of closing lanes off peak. Going further, should we close third lane on 3-lane motorways at night? There would be enough capacity on 2 lanes at night.
Do it just because some people don't stick to the left? It doesn't make any sense. This is not the best way do educate drivers.
You are probably right, closing lanes would not be too reasonable. I just said that, because ignorance of some drivers makes me slightly annoyed sometimes.
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Old November 25th, 2012, 10:08 PM   #3164
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Very good I like the roads and the traffic signs in GB. I wish I had the experience of driving on the left side
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Old November 25th, 2012, 10:11 PM   #3165
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Drove around the NC Route for much of the section that you just posted yesterday
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Old November 25th, 2012, 10:15 PM   #3166
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M4

Last chapter of this wet story.

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One of most impressive, perhaps most impressive elavated motorway I've ever seen and driven on.
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Back on M25.
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Thanks for watching, Gentlemen.
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Old November 25th, 2012, 10:37 PM   #3167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piotr71 View Post
Causing congestion? How is it possible if there is traffic, which easily could fit on two lanes instead of 4?
Quote:
Actually, 50% of drivers gather on lane 4 congesting it for no obvious reason.
And closing lane 4 would surely move them to lane 3, where they will join another 25% of traffic or whatever, congesting that far more (though if the traffic could easily fit on two lanes, and one lane has half the traffic, I failed to see how that would congest it). How does such a move make it better? Added to that is weavy-in-and-out people overtaking elephant races joining and leaving that third lane and making matters far worse.

It's a very cheap way of increasing capacity on busy roads (even at quiet times, something worthy of D4 in the UK will be pretty highly trafficked - with one exception, reducing to D3 other than at night is ) to discourage lane changing. Ghost queues disappeared on the SW M25 after they introduced VSL and discouraged changing lanes.

Weaving about the road repeatedly creates more conflicts - increasing the risk of accidents and therefore causing congestion.
Quote:
Temporary closing (off peak hours) lane 4 would probably encourage them to obey basic traffic rule - keep to the left.
Ah, so this is about soft attempts to get people obeying rules, not decreasing congestion, increasing safety or anything like that.

What's the benefit value of that? Will it get anywhere near outweighing the costs of such a scheme (in gantries on D4 routes that don't have a high enough amount of them, in monitoring traffic and closing lanes)?
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What about other road users, who are put in danger by a driver not using warning device behind his/her car? Why then, on all dual carriageways, which have the same speed limit, warning triangle should be used?
It's about balance of risks - the likelihood of a car hitting another one with hazard lights on is (much?) lower one than hitting someone who is wearing Hi-Vis (best case scenario here) putting up a warning triangle on a fast road. The consequences will be also be more in a person-car collision.

And why all fast DCs? because the hard shoulder is a safety feature - on other DCs (and 60mph SCs, though there's the problem of head on traffic for passing traffic), then even if you pulled onto some sort of soft shoulder/verge you'd still have to go on a life traffic lane to set up the warning triangle. So if 'never' on Motorways, why not 70mph DCs.
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Old November 25th, 2012, 11:14 PM   #3168
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Old November 25th, 2012, 11:30 PM   #3169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
And closing lane 4 would surely move them to lane 3, where they will join another 25% of traffic or whatever, congesting that far more (though if the traffic could easily fit on two lanes, and one lane has half the traffic, I failed to see how that would congest it). How does such a move make it better? Added to that is weavy-in-and-out people overtaking elephant races joining and leaving that third lane and making matters far worse.(..)
In my opinion, if you have a look on the picture below, lane 4 gets congested or at least is getting most busy there. Other lanes are clear. It does not make any sense at all to me. Those drivers (on lane 4) rolling on really close to each other with the speed about 10 miles over allowed limit. Where is the common sense here, I am asking? Where is the safety-no-weaving issue here.


I am sure, you perfectly know what will be going on when traffic gets halted before junction in peak time. First lane to stop is 4 on 4D or 3 on 3D. Then, many "fast lane' drivers will start pulling over to lane 3, 2 or even 1 with no care about "keep in lane" directive and this is probably the most dangerous action causing huge fraction of accidents and congestion on motorway.

Changing lanes does not equal weaving. It is not so difficult to come back gently and safely to a so called slow lane after overtaking. There is no need for rush doing this manoeuvre. So, discouraging people from doing it at all instead encouraging and training them to do it properly, makes unwanted fuss and rage, which are good base for dangerous situations.

I hope you will forgive me breaking your rich and beautiful language. Sorry, can't do better
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Old November 26th, 2012, 02:08 AM   #3170
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Thanks for the photos, piotr. I use those roads a lot. I usually avoid going via M4 as the section from the Hanger lane roundabout to the Chiswick roundabout is dreadful. I usually just take the M40 instead. It adds a few miles but makes the overall journey time shorter.
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Old November 26th, 2012, 03:08 AM   #3171
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I like these rainy and misty photos. They look quite artistic. Especially the last set in the dark looks great.
Good job.
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Old November 26th, 2012, 07:57 AM   #3172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
I honestly don't see the point of closing lanes off peak. Going further, should we close third lane on 3-lane motorways at night? There would be enough capacity on 2 lanes at night.
Do it just because some people don't stick to the left? It doesn't make any sense. This is not the best way do educate drivers.
See my Lane Discipline thread. :-)

(Briefly...if anyone wants to go on with it, they can do it there...I don't see what is wrong with traffic distributing itself according to speed across all lanes but the one closest to the center of the road on freeways with three or more lanes each way. The idea that, if there are four lanes in a given direction, three are for passing only seems just barmy to me.)
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Old November 26th, 2012, 08:06 AM   #3173
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I hope you will forgive me breaking your rich and beautiful language. Sorry, can't do better
If you're doing your best, there's nothing to forgive (and I've seen far worse, anyway)! I participate in forums in French and I have long since accepted, grudgingly, that my French will never be perfect....

And the pics are brilliant!

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Old November 26th, 2012, 10:04 AM   #3174
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I don't see what is wrong with traffic distributing itself according to speed across all lanes but the one closest to the center of the road on freeways with three or more lanes each way. The idea that, if there are four lanes in a given direction, three are for passing only seems just barmy to me.
That's because it is barmy. The rule was invented when no roads had more than 2 lanes in any direction.
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Old November 26th, 2012, 02:56 PM   #3175
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Continental lane-discipline fetishists will please note the "slow" in one of the passing lanes.... ;-)
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Old November 26th, 2012, 03:01 PM   #3176
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Guys, let's not go to this discussion again. The whole subject comes from time to time to almost any thread. Isn't there separate one somewhere there?

We will never come to any conclusions. There are some who advocate pure free for all where no lane discipline matters and those who advocate sticking to the right (left in the UK) at any cost, even when you have to constantly wave inches from other vehicles.

I have to say I'm somewhere in between. I have seen situations (especially in the US on 2x2 interstates) where lane-hoggers really slow the traffic (I-15 from LA to Vegas of Friday night anyone?). On the other hand on roads 2x3 or 2x4 I find it much less of an issue. Somehow in the UK I have never really experienced problems with traffic flow due to middle or right lane hoggers. Maybe I was lucky.
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Old November 26th, 2012, 05:55 PM   #3177
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Continental lane-discipline fetishists will please note the "slow" in one of the passing lanes.... ;-)
I have explained this in the lane discipline thread, it's more of a caution thing really.
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Old November 27th, 2012, 02:55 PM   #3178
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Thank you all for the comments, words of appreciation and the polemics.
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Old November 30th, 2012, 11:21 PM   #3179
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Have you noticed how well M1 is lit. I do not know how far up North lamp posts are, however relying on my experience and memory, I am pretty certain M1 is lit up to Northampton.
The lights have actually been removed from the section from Luton northwards, many have been cut down in Northamptonshire due to corrosion and they don't properly restart until you get up to the A43. Having put lights in to reduce accidents and fatigue we are now saving money by not repairing them or only putting them on for a very few hours a day. The Dft are also trying to claim no reduction in safety, but this does not square with the original facts for their installation. Basically we should just admit that it's cuts put above road safety.
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Old November 30th, 2012, 11:49 PM   #3180
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Interesting.

A couple more words about the lights. I noticed something weird not long time ago. I was travelling clockwise on M25 between J16 (M40) and J23 (A1M) very early in the morning. I witnessed switching off the lights on motorway as it was lighting up (dawn). But, they were switching them off kind of wrong way, from west to east....
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