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Old December 6th, 2012, 10:50 PM   #3201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post

You can't just cut the Great North Road into pieces and renumber parts of it. It's the A1 for reason after all.
It was the A1, but after Leeds it has become A1(M). Apart from the M6 going northwest, there are no other northbound motorways then the A1(M) as the M1 stops at Leeds. So it would make perfect sense to me.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 11:11 PM   #3202
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It was the A1, but after Leeds it has become A1(M). Apart from the M6 going northwest, there are no other northbound motorways then the A1(M) as the M1 stops at Leeds. So it would make perfect sense to me.
Exactly. And it's not the first time a major trunk road has been "cut up". The A6 is one example I can think of.

It would make perfect sense to renunber the A1(M) the M1 once it's brought up to motorway standard all the way up to Newcastle. Besides, the old A1 actually runs parallel with the A1(M) in places....weird logic.

As for the A1 below where it meets the M1 northeast of Leeds, I would probably leave it as the A1/A1(M) until such time as it's converted to full motorway standards from the M25 in Hertfordshire to where it meets the M62. At that point, the A1 will have to be phased out and perhaps called the M10.
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Old December 6th, 2012, 11:19 PM   #3203
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It will be difficult to upgrade the A1 between Baldock and Huntingdon, because it runs through buildup areas. Instead an upgrade of the A14 between M11 and A1 could be possible, and have it as one single motorway from Essex to Yorkshire...

After upgrades has been completed between Stamford and Doncaster of course.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 05:15 AM   #3204
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
It will be difficult to upgrade the A1 between Baldock and Huntingdon, because it runs through buildup areas. Instead an upgrade of the A14 between M11 and A1 could be possible, and have it as one single motorway from Essex to Yorkshire...

After upgrades has been completed between Stamford and Doncaster of course.
Then for now, anything south of Leeds should still be the A1. Once the rest is upgraded to motorway, it makes perfect sense to renunber it as the M1 and thus, extend the M1 all the way to Newcastle.

Common sense, IMO. It would still be the "Great North Road", but practically speaking, it'd be nice to have a full motorway from London to England's most northerly large city. The M1 is too big time of a motorway to just end at landlocked Leeds and merge with the bloody A1(M). Those Ax(M) designations were only meant for small stretches of converted motorway, not cross-country strategically important motorway stretches linking Leeds to Newcastle.

The A1(M) stretch between the M25 and Stevenage should be reclassified as the M10 too. The A10 runs parallel.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 05:36 AM   #3205
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Then they would have to renumber the A1 between Central London and M25 as well...
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Old December 7th, 2012, 05:46 PM   #3206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
You can't just cut the Great North Road into pieces and renumber parts of it. It's the A1 for reason after all.
Though, due to complaints about it, they removed the A1 from the Great North Road between Boroughbridge and Darlington (via Thirsk and Northallerton) onto the more main route via Dere Street (via Scotch Corner) in 1924.

But yes, there's strong opposition to a renumbering for those reasons.
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
It was the A1, but after Leeds it has become A1(M).
Which is the A1, just under motorway regulations.
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Apart from the M6 going northwest, there are no other northbound motorways then the A1(M) as the M1 stops at Leeds. So it would make perfect sense to me.
I don't follow the logic here... perhaps because there isn't anything but assertion.
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
It will be difficult to upgrade the A1 between Baldock and Huntingdon, because it runs through buildup areas. Instead an upgrade of the A14 between M11 and A1 could be possible, and have it as one single motorway from Essex to Yorkshire...
No, a single motorway between Woodford (Essex/London) and near Newcastle. OK, there's a dogleg via Cambridge, but that would be a less crazy London-Tyneside motorway route than the M1. You might even get away with numbering it all M11 (provided that the bypassed bits and Local Access Roads between Alconbury and Gateshead are renumbered A1).
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Originally Posted by Comfortably Numb View Post
Exactly. And it's not the first time a major trunk road has been "cut up". The A6 is one example I can think of.
The A6 has always been a total bodge (designed as a zone boundary rather than a major route for most it's length) - even making it the main trunk route to Manchester in 1936 didn't start it becoming a route you would drive most of the way on (in 1946 they created another Derby-Manchester trunk road avoiding the hills). Oh, and other than in a couple of city centres (where part is pedestrianized (Manchester), or uses a ringroad with a different number (Derby, Leicester)) and south of Luton, the number remains intact throughout, ignored by most as it continues to be a useless route for bigger than regional functions.

In 1936, London - Leicester wouldn't have used the A6 until Bedford, if at all. Derby-Manchester was always via the A523-A52 route. London-Manchester wouldn't have touched the A6 (A5 out of London, get across to the A50 then A556/A56 or A34 from the West Midlands to Manchester) From east of Pennines to Carlisle/Grenta, you'd pick the A6 up in Penrith, using the A1-A66 route to get there as Shap was too hilly.

In other words the A6 is a bad example as
1)it hasn't been cut up as a number
2)was never a coherent route, rather than several shorter ones (often of only local importance) joined together and
3)really, really doesn't have that brand-recognition as the A1 does.
Quote:
It would make perfect sense to renunber the A1(M) the M1 once it's brought up to motorway standard all the way up to Newcastle.
Why? The M1 isn't the route between London and Newcastle - the A1 is. Why change the number at Hook Moor?
Quote:
Besides, the old A1 actually runs parallel with the A1(M) in places....weird logic.
Where?
Quote:
As for the A1 below where it meets the M1 northeast of Leeds, I would probably leave it as the A1/A1(M) until such time as it's converted to full motorway standards from the M25 in Hertfordshire to where it meets the M62. At that point, the A1 will have to be phased out and perhaps called the M10.
And everyone who cares, except numbering geeks, will vomit at such a change - and some numbering geeks vomit as well!
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Originally Posted by Comfortably Numb View Post
Then for now, anything south of Leeds should still be the A1. Once the rest is upgraded to motorway, it makes perfect sense to renunber it as the M1 and thus, extend the M1 all the way to Newcastle.
And give two numbers to the London-Newcastle road? Why?
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Common sense, IMO.
Nope - this one as well is based on (thankfully) uncommon nonsense.
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It would still be the "Great North Road", but practically speaking, it'd be nice to have a full motorway from London to England's most northerly large city.
But why does that motorway route, which would dogleg to serve Leeds (especially - the way from Derby to Newcastle would be to take the M18 to the A1 corridor, not the longer M1 route), Sheffield and the East Midlands cities, need a single number? Especially since that single number would, by misleading people that it's the best way between the two ends, abstract traffic off of the more empty direct route and put it on the longer more congested route.
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The M1 is too big time of a motorway to just end at landlocked Leeds and merge with the bloody A1(M).
I hardly think ending, having just passed through one of the biggest urban areas in the country, on one of the two main N-S routes is an inappropriate end.
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Those Ax(M) designations were only meant for small stretches of converted motorway,
Nope, they were simply meant for motorway sections of existing road numbers upgraded to motorway - hence why the Darlington bypass and Durham Motorway is A1(M), despite it's length.

The reason you had A4(M) Maidenhead bypass was because it was part of the A4 London-Bath-Bristol trunk road, and then became part of the different M4 London-South Wales trunk road. The A2(M) was renumbered as M2 by the Telegraph, the name stuck so it had to open with that number, which changed the A20(M)'s planned future number to M20. The A40(M)/M40 relationship I'm not sure of why the change (then again, M40 to Birmingham proposals began about the same time). And the M54/A5(M) didn't entirely form a direct part of the A5 corridor in it's half finished current state, so needed renumbering.

As such the A1(M) fits the intentions of the Ax(M) number very well.
Quote:
not cross-country strategically important motorway stretches linking Leeds to Newcastle.
So, can you tell me why - when they came up with the system to number motorways, they explicitly called the strategically important, and rather long, Durham motorway 'A1(M)' rather than M69 or similar (M6x being the sector of the motorway numbering scheme that motorway was in, 9 being as it's the furthest from London, as was the sort of tradition)?
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The A1(M) stretch between the M25 and Stevenage should be reclassified as the M10 too. The A10 runs parallel.
What's the fact that A10 is parallel (serving totally different locations though, but we'll ignore that aspect of things) got to do with numbering the A1(M) in Herts M10?
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Then they would have to renumber the A1 between Central London and M25 as well...
Why?
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Old December 7th, 2012, 10:21 PM   #3207
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Sotonsi, I still don't get your defense of the Ax(M) designation.
On one hand you say how we shouldn't change it to a new motorway number but then you quote examples how it was done and didn't caused any major problems.
I find the whole Ax(M) system an incoherent relic of the past where short motorway stretches replaced some bits of major A-roads. Then it did make sense not to confuse drivers and keep the old designation.

However nowadays motorways create separate network of high quality transport corridors. When/if A1 is upgraded to motorway status on most of its route I think it will deserve separate designation as a motorway. Any number (M7?) will be better than its currents status.

I know that any change in Britain is painfully slow and faces huge opposition but I hope we are not stuck with the A1(M) nonsense forever.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 10:47 PM   #3208
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Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
(..)

I know that any change in Britain is painfully slow and faces huge opposition but I hope we are not stuck with the A1(M) nonsense forever.
I think British attachment to tradition is too sophisticated to be understood by foreigners. In my opinion, they will not change A1/A1(M) number. (I am not saying it's good or bad)
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Old December 8th, 2012, 12:47 AM   #3209
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Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
Sotonsi, I still don't get your defense of the Ax(M) designation.
On one hand you say how we shouldn't change it to a new motorway number but then you quote examples how it was done and didn't caused any major problems.
Mostly as they became part of another route (the main motorway, rather than the original trunk road) after about 5 years at most.
Quote:
I find the whole Ax(M) system an incoherent relic of the past where short motorway stretches replaced some bits of major A-roads. Then it did make sense not to confuse drivers and keep the old designation.
So why not do the same here and keep the old designation and so not confuse drivers. The London - Newcastle route would be A1/A1(M)-Mx-A1-A184, rather than just A1/A1(M)-A184 (you may wish to add an extended M11 to the southern end of that). Hook Moor - Birtley is replacing (directly) not just a major A road, but an A road where the route was so certain to go on that route, that renumbering had to be invented to get it in the right place. If there was a time to do it, it was in the junction numbering of Walshford-Dishforth and the actual numbering of Hook Moor - Bramham.

Yes, Ax(M) were used for short bypasses that were going to form parts of longer routes, but they were for all direct upgrades of an A road route unless becoming part of an M road route - hence the Durham motorway getting such a number and not being planned to be some Mx number (it is after all, longer than the M2, which the person who proposed Ax(M) suggested should become M2, rather than the planned A2(M) as the number was free - though it was the Telegraph that fixed that number when it published some contract proposals with that number).

That there are lots of since-changed Ax(M) numbers doesn't mean that they all were to change.
Quote:
However nowadays motorways create separate network of high quality transport corridors. When/if A1 is upgraded to motorway status on most of its route I think it will deserve separate designation as a motorway. Any number (M7?) will be better than its currents status.
But by the rules, it should be A1(M) as it's not a separate corridor to the A1. And that the 'M' is after the number doesn't stop it being part of a coherent motorway network - cf the many complaints about the A27 between A3(M) and M27/M275: "it links two motorways"

If you get a motorway from Girton or Baldock to Gateshead, then removing the A1 and giving it a specific Mx number might be an idea. M7 is a sucky number and I'm sure the Scottish Parliament would have something to say about a number whose use is devolved to Scotland being used in England.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 12:47 AM   #3210
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I think they were a bad idea, but it's a bit late to do anything about it now
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Old December 8th, 2012, 02:04 AM   #3211
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I think they were a bad idea, but it's a bit late to do anything about it now
I honestly can't see advantage of keeping A1(M) at some point in future once the whole corridor is upgraded. I would call it M7 or something like that. It would be clear an simple.
But you are probably right, the current strange system is too entrenched in people's minds. Especially the road geeks who actually take part in such discussion and make decisions seems to love it

I myself don't care really as I know British road network quite well. However, I wonder if it does cause confusion among some first time visitors. Imagine you are a Spanish driver trying to follow motorway up north and suddenly see signs for these strange creatures Ax(M). Is it a motorway? Is it a dual carriageway? Is it an A road?
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Old December 8th, 2012, 02:47 AM   #3212
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Spaniards, if anyone, should be used to lots of designations.
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A B CH D F GB I L NL
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Old December 8th, 2012, 11:18 AM   #3213
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Absolutely. The British road numbering system (Mx, Ax, Ax(M) and Bx) looks simple as a lollipop's mechanism to me. Motorways have a common letter (I don't really care if it's between brackets, it's got an M and that's all I need), main roads do also have one and secondary roads too. So it's really simple and easy to navigate. I wouldn't change the numbering of A1(M), given that parts of it are still dual carriageway. I think it's best to keep the same number for the entire route.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 01:40 PM   #3214
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Quote:
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I wouldn't change the numbering of A1(M), given that parts of it are still dual carriageway. I think it's best to keep the same number for the entire route.
But how about in the future when (if ever) the whole route is upgraded to motorway status?
Then keeping A1(M) would have little sense.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 03:59 PM   #3215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
But how about in the future when (if ever) the whole route is upgraded to motorway status?
Then keeping A1(M) would have little sense.
2 things, firstly the A1 will never be upgraded to motorway all the way from London to Edinburgh, it's single carriageway from Morpeth northwards and traffic levels do not justify it. Secondly the Ax(m) system works quite easily, rather better than continually changing the number of the road you are travelling on purely to demonstrate a change in designation rather than destination. Most comments suggesting a change don't take into account the fact that the road changes from dual carriageway to motorway without any physical junction i.e. roundabout, it just gets wider and the sign colours change, but you're still heading north and you didn't slow down.

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Old December 8th, 2012, 08:23 PM   #3216
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I honestly can't see advantage of keeping A1(M) at some point in future once the whole corridor is upgraded. I would call it M7 or something like that. It would be clear an simple.
The 7 is a Scottish number. So it is barely suitable for a road running entirely in England.

Speaking of Scots, the A74(M) hasn't turned into M74 yet which is a vastly more logical move. Yet, you want the A1 to be disrupted and renumbered. It's just not going to happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
I myself don't care really as I know British road network quite well. However, I wonder if it does cause confusion among some first time visitors. Imagine you are a Spanish driver trying to follow motorway up north and suddenly see signs for these strange creatures Ax(M). Is it a motorway? Is it a dual carriageway? Is it an A road?
If it got blue signs it's a motorway, if the signs are green then you're on a non-motorway primary route and if they are white you're off the trunk network. It isn't particularly difficult to find your way in the UK.
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Old December 9th, 2012, 12:16 AM   #3217
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This is a Youtube clip of my old route to/from work (M5) when I lived in the West Midlands, but worked near Worcester.



Looks just as I remember it from 11 years ago, except for the last 6 minutes of the video, where there are multiple advertising billboards along the stretch of the M5 from J2 to J1 in particular. I don't remember seeing any of these - I actually thought they were illegal in Britain, but times must have changed. The drivers look just as courteous as I remember though.
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Old December 9th, 2012, 12:23 AM   #3218
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@ 1:00

WTF is this? The hard shoulder is there for a reason. This is widening on the cheap!



Dear M6 between J9 and J10, you are no longer a motorway, you are a 4 lane dual carriageway.

What happens if you break down?
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Old December 9th, 2012, 12:51 AM   #3219
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Originally Posted by Comfortably Numb View Post
there are multiple advertising billboards along the stretch of the M5 from J2 to J1 in particular. I don't remember seeing any of these - I actually thought they were illegal in Britain, but times must have changed.
Englishman's home his castle and they can put up adverts (as has happened since before the motor car in the past - eg on the sides of buildings) legally - the ban is for ads inside the highway boundary. I imagine that the cost got cheap enough for the structure to lift ads to the elevated roadway.
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WTF is this? The hard shoulder is there for a reason. This is widening on the cheap!
But there is about the most acceptable place for such - to widen this elevated roadway would be very very expensive.
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Dear M6 between J9 and J10, you are no longer a motorway,
category error
Quote:
you are a 4 lane dual carriageway.
and before it was a 3-lane dual carriageway... again, category error
Quote:
What happens if you break down?
the lane you are in is closed some distance back, after CCTV spots you and all the active traffic management makes you safe. Or you pull into to one of the very frequent laybys en route.

ATM sounds scary, but has won most sceptics over that it's safe (less so on not fully widening).
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Old December 9th, 2012, 02:29 AM   #3220
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Quote:
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Englishman's home his castle and they can put up adverts (as has happened since before the motor car in the past - eg on the sides of buildings) legally - the ban is for ads inside the highway boundary. I imagine that the cost got cheap enough for the structure to lift ads to the elevated roadway.But there is about the most acceptable place for such - to widen this elevated roadway would be very very expensive.category errorand before it was a 3-lane dual carriageway... again, category errorthe lane you are in is closed some distance back, after CCTV spots you and all the active traffic management makes you safe. Or you pull into to one of the very frequent laybys en route.

ATM sounds scary, but has won most sceptics over that it's safe (less so on not fully widening).
That stretch of the M6 should be renamed the M6(A) LOL.

I thought billboards were banned from sight as they were a "distraction"? When did these pop up? I left the UK in 2002 and don't remember seeing any along motorway stretches. Here in the US, they are never far from sight, even on a remote interstate surrounded by nothing but woods and hills, yet you still see a "Wells Fargo" or "McDonalds" billboard. Ugly.

I don't get how it's "safe" to not have a hard shoulder on a motorway. What if your tire blows, or you break down suddenly? Where do you go?

BTW, I don't recall J9 onwards of the M6 being elevated, unless it morphed into an elevated motorway since I left? I understand that much of the M6 through Brum is elevated, but not the section I'm talking about. If the government cared to invest, it could have been widened to 4 or 5 lanes the proper way, without putting safety at risk and defying logic. The Black Country Route would have solved many traffic problems on the M5/M6 anyway, but the NIMBYs didn't want built. I remember the "no blue route" signs and public opposition back in 1989, even though I was 6 years shy of being old enough to drive, but I was opposed to the NIMBY movement even back then. 23 years later and I'm sure the M5/M6(A) traffic is the stuff of nightmares, but you reap what you sow.

A balanced transport solution is the only way to fly; the Dutch have the right idea. Investment not only helps the long-term economic prospects of a particular region, but in the short term, it also creates jobs.
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