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Old December 7th, 2013, 12:16 AM   #3521
piotr71
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M40/M42 Oxford-West Midlands

Thanks Comfortably Numb

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Old December 7th, 2013, 01:52 AM   #3522
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Thanks Comfortably....
Psst. Piotr. I assume that typo was unintentional.
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Old December 7th, 2013, 03:23 AM   #3523
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Psst. Piotr. I assume that typo was unintentional.
Or he was taking the piss? lol.

Actually I'd like to change my name to that. Moderator?
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Old December 7th, 2013, 03:30 AM   #3524
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Well, it's too late now!

(But since it was at the top of a new page, and when I opened the thread I went directly to the last page, it really jumped out at me.)
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Old December 7th, 2013, 03:55 AM   #3525
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Originally Posted by Mackem View Post
The British government can find £14bn for Crossrail as it was heavily campaigned for by the financial sector.
The British Government hasn't found £14bn for Crossrail. Business rates pay a third, TfL have borrowed the money for a third (paid back from the fare box), leaving a third for the British Government to pay for (and will get back from franchise premiums over time).
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The A14 should be a priority - 18 mile queues every morning, so regular they don't warrant a mention on regular traffic reports.
Oh yes, it is important and does need upgrading. The toll wasn't about finding the money, the toll was about getting it done quicker.
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The toll idea comes because the alternatives are so poor
They aren't that bad - the A42x-M1 route is pretty reasonable for E-W traffic, and the Beds A1 not too bad for N-S traffic. The local, Cambridge commuter, flows have poor alternatives but, strategically, the A14 has reasonable alternatives.

As I complained, in my response to the consultation, the fairly small upgrades needed to make these routes high quality (Caxton-Black Cat in particular, which serves the Varsity Arc corridor) would have to deal with the issue of loss of A14 toll revenue counting as a disbenefit, screwing over Bedford especially.
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As for the ports, if you're going to Thamesport you WILL use the A14 if you come from anywhere in the midlands or north.
Thamesport? Really?

You could go that way from the M1 corridor, having headed over (on poor roads from Nottingham, etc) to the A1, and it makes sense if the M25 is snarled up and your route isn't, not being much slower.

However, from the M6 corridor, it's a lot longer than M1-M25 - far enough that even a free-flowing A14 needs lengthy queues on the M1/M25 to be quicker than that route.
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This is a main route to Kent and Essex but I don't expect to see much improvement before I retire (and like the East Coast motorway that's a long way off !).
The consultation document did neglect the N-S nature of the route.

East Coast motorway was a bunch of political-bribery bollocks designed to make the political-bribery of the Humber Bridge look less like a white elephant. It was never official and served odd traffic objectives.

A1 motorway upgrade, however was on the books, however the simpler scheme of finishing grade-separation means that the A1 is now OK from Stamford to the M18 - a couple of junctions are a bit tight, but that's it.
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Old December 7th, 2013, 07:33 AM   #3526
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Weren't there plans to upgrade the A1 around Newcastle to A1(M) to alleviate traffic? Also hopefully one day the A1 from Newcastle to Edinburgh will be upgrade to at least a full length grade separated dual carriageway. It carries a lot of traffic and links not only 2 major cities, but also Scotland and England.
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Old December 7th, 2013, 10:25 AM   #3527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Psst. Piotr. I assume that typo was unintentional.
OOps, I do not know what to say. I checked several times after your post, I compared my typing to Comfortably Numb's name and could not find any error.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Comfortably Numb View Post
Or he was taking the piss? lol.

Actually I'd like to change my name to that. Moderator?
I am really, really sorry. I do not what has gotten into me last night. It was just horrible typing mistake. I truly apologise.
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Old December 7th, 2013, 03:20 PM   #3528
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Old December 7th, 2013, 07:09 PM   #3529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piotr71 View Post
OOps, I do not know what to say. I checked several times after your post, I compared my typing to Comfortably Numb's name and could not find any error.



I am really, really sorry. I do not what has gotten into me last night. It was just horrible typing mistake. I truly apologise.
No need to apologize . I actually thought it was pretty funny.
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Old December 7th, 2013, 08:56 PM   #3530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Comfortably Numb View Post
Weren't there plans to upgrade the A1 around Newcastle to A1(M) to alleviate traffic?
Not aware of any. The furthest north the A1(M) was seemingly planned to was just north of Newcastle City Centre (Central Motorway East/CME Bypass), which it did, at one time, do.

The 90s plan was to end at Newcastle - presumably in the vicinity of where it currently does.

The 80s A1 route via the Tyne Tunnel is an easier route to upgrade to motorway, and any motorway bypass of Newcastle should go that way round the city. Hopefully, after grade-separating that route from the A184 to the A189 they grade separate the tie-ins to the A1 and send Morpeth traffic that way.

The Scottish Government have no plans to improve the A1 beyond Dunbar, and the English no plans north of Alnwick.
Quote:
Also hopefully one day the A1 from Newcastle to Edinburgh will be upgrade to at least a full length grade separated dual carriageway. It carries a lot of traffic and links not only 2 major cities, but also Scotland and England.
Though, south of Scotch Corner, the High Road via Carlisle is quicker than the Low Road via Newcastle (A1 expressway all the way will change that for non-Glasgow/Ayrshire destinations) for non-Edinburgh areas. York - Perth is given via Carlisle on Google.

Newcastle, or even Morpeth, to Edinburgh is quicker going over the mountains than taking the coastal route via Berwick. However if more people used the A68, then there wouldn't be as good!
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Old December 7th, 2013, 09:11 PM   #3531
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On at least one of those Top Gear London-to-Edinburgh runs, we see a landmark of some sort near Newcastle (at least I gather it's near Newcastle) that looks sort of like an early airplane standing on its tail. Always been curious what it is.
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Old December 7th, 2013, 10:01 PM   #3532
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Comfortably Numb View Post
I am actually in favor of signing them as many of them cover multiple motorways and major trunk routes. The British stretch of E05 for example crosses several motorways on its route from Glasgow to Southampton. This would be a route used by transcontinental traffic so having a consistent number alongside the British M number designation may help foreign and British motorists alike.
Southampton is hardly the ferry port of choice for transcontinental traffic, so it creates one route number for a rather random route. With traffic to the continent making up a relatively low component of traffic North of London, why further fill up the British signs that already appear rather stuffed?

By the way, can it really be said that places like Harwich, Felixstowe and the Channel Tunnel are signposted from such a large distance because the British have been taking the continental perspective for once? Might it also be related to the fact that these towns appear on east-west routes where it is much trickier to use the usual regional focal points on the signs? Nonetheless, for me as a motorist from the continent, it remains an oddity that ferry ports take these high positions in the list of focal points, where the country's largest cities drawing the largest numbers of motorists mostly remain hidden behind focals like "The NORTH".
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Old December 7th, 2013, 10:40 PM   #3533
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
On at least one of those Top Gear London-to-Edinburgh runs, we see a landmark of some sort near Newcastle (at least I gather it's near Newcastle) that looks sort of like an early airplane standing on its tail. Always been curious what it is.
The "Angel of the North" , must be.

Anyway as to the A14, that link section should have been built as a Motorway in the early 1990s and we would not be back looking at doing it again as soon as it was finished almost. Crossrail is essential for entirely different reasons to the A14, the 2 crossrail projects are needed to get people under a congested and ancient core tube network, and fast. The French built their Crossrails in the 1970s mainly, ie the RER network.

The A14 is Britains core goods import/export route. Railfreight in the UK is essentially nowhere since the mines closed 20 years ago.

Last edited by sponge_bob; December 7th, 2013 at 10:47 PM.
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Old December 8th, 2013, 02:08 AM   #3534
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The "Angel of the North" , must be.
That's it!
Cheers.
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Old December 8th, 2013, 11:13 AM   #3535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
That's it!
Cheers.
With its arse pointing towards Newcastle.

Its in Gateshead just north of where the A1M ends and along side the A1 Western Bypass.
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Old December 8th, 2013, 11:22 AM   #3536
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
The 80s A1 route via the Tyne Tunnel is an easier route to upgrade to motorway, and any motorway bypass of Newcastle should go that way round the city. Hopefully, after grade-separating that route from the A184 to the A189 they grade separate the tie-ins to the A1 and send Morpeth traffic that way.
Do you have a link for this? Never heard of it before and I've lived here all my life (50 years).
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Old December 8th, 2013, 06:41 PM   #3537
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With its arse pointing towards Newcastle.

Its in Gateshead just north of where the A1M ends and along side the A1 Western Bypass.
I'd never gotten a good enough look at it, until it was identified yesterday so I could look it up, to see that it was a figure of a man. To me, it looked vaguely like a totem pole with really long arms, but a totem pole seemed improbable in England. :-)
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Old December 8th, 2013, 10:09 PM   #3538
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
The British Government hasn't found £14bn for Crossrail. Business rates pay a third, TfL have borrowed the money for a third (paid back from the fare box), leaving a third for the British Government to pay for (and will get back from franchise premiums over time).Oh yes, it is important and does need upgrading. The toll wasn't about finding the money, the toll was about getting it done quicker.They aren't that bad - the A42x-M1 route is pretty reasonable for E-W traffic, and the Beds A1 not too bad for N-S traffic. The local, Cambridge commuter, flows have poor alternatives but, strategically, the A14 has reasonable alternatives.

As I complained, in my response to the consultation, the fairly small upgrades needed to make these routes high quality (Caxton-Black Cat in particular, which serves the Varsity Arc corridor) would have to deal with the issue of loss of A14 toll revenue counting as a disbenefit, screwing over Bedford especially.Thamesport? Really?

You could go that way from the M1 corridor, having headed over (on poor roads from Nottingham, etc) to the A1, and it makes sense if the M25 is snarled up and your route isn't, not being much slower.

However, from the M6 corridor, it's a lot longer than M1-M25 - far enough that even a free-flowing A14 needs lengthy queues on the M1/M25 to be quicker than that route.The consultation document did neglect the N-S nature of the route.

East Coast motorway was a bunch of political-bribery bollocks designed to make the political-bribery of the Humber Bridge look less like a white elephant. It was never official and served odd traffic objectives.

A1 motorway upgrade, however was on the books, however the simpler scheme of finishing grade-separation means that the A1 is now OK from Stamford to the M18 - a couple of junctions are a bit tight, but that's it.
Funding - Business rates and Tfl are basically state funding - business rates are levied and collected by central government, hypothecating part of the receipts whilst not usually done in the UK doesn't really change anything - Tfl like Railtrack is state owned but off balance sheet debt funding - whilst this does not constitute part of the national debt it is still state funding.

Alternatives to the A14 in Cambridgeshire are poor - the A428 is not easily accessed and the junction with the M11 is poor. You certainly wouldn't trek up to the A42 as an alternative to the A14.

If you're going to Thamesport from the North East, Yorkshire, Scotland etc. (in a truck, which is what will be going there) you won't go all the way on the M1 as it uses more driving time, has a higher accident potential south of the M6 and currently will land you in roadworks on the M25. Much of the traffic crosses on the A66, A57 and the A14 from the Midlands. Driving time is all in this business.

As for the East Coast motorway, this was a scheme offered to business communities in the North East in the mid 1980s. In the end they selected the A1 upgrade scheme which has since been subject to various changes in the "political wind direction".
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Old December 9th, 2013, 02:05 AM   #3539
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Sorry, this will be one long post, addressing several people, split into a couple of posts to make it less scary. The TLR for most of it is "lots of misdirection and hyperbole that I don't think should be used to sell a very very important road scheme. Also I answer some other points..." Here's the answering of the some other points.
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Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
Southampton is hardly the ferry port of choice for transcontinental traffic, so it creates one route number for a rather random route.
Certainly Southampton sees little freight from Europe (though there's not a small number of foreign freight outfits that shift the goods) but it's a major container port. That said, the 'The MIDLANDS' is perfectly acceptable, and E05 as well is overkill.
Quote:
By the way, can it really be said that places like Harwich, Felixstowe and the Channel Tunnel are signposted from such a large distance because the British have been taking the continental perspective for once? Might it also be related to the fact that these towns appear on east-west routes where it is much trickier to use the usual regional focal points on the signs?
Felixstowe is signed eastbound along the M6 at J1, over 100 miles away and is signed as an onward destination from there. Why not Kettering, or - if you want a further place - Cambridge or Ipswich? Channel Tunnel is something similar on the M20 (though the M25 signage might change from Maidstone with the J5-7 works, though they often replace signs like for like)

And it's not like the "The WEST" signs seen in Southampton, across Kent, Surrey and Berks on the Ports-Reading route (it becomes SOUTH WALES somewhere there) and in other places (Leeds, IIRC) couldn't be copied with 'The EAST' if they wanted, or 'EAST ANGLIA'.

-------------------------------

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Originally Posted by Fatfield View Post
Do you have a link for this? Never heard of it before and I've lived here all my life (50 years).
A link for what?
A link for the A1 going via the Tyne Tunnel? (just look at an 80s map)?
A link for A19 upgrades (here - doing more than I thought. Good[/url])
Or a link for it being easier to build a motorway going east of the city? (just look at all the closely-spaced junctions, congestion from sheer weight of traffic and little space left for widening)

It's certainly not a real plan to redivert the main bypass route, but if there was a real plan for full-scale improvements for N-S traffic across Tyneside, it would use the Tunnel.

Last edited by sotonsi; December 9th, 2013 at 02:21 AM.
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Old December 9th, 2013, 02:20 AM   #3540
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Here's the post where I deal with the most egregious misinformation and hyperbole. You'll be pleased to know there that there's no more.
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Anyway as to the A14, that link section should have been built as a Motorway in the early 1990s and we would not be back looking at doing it again as soon as it was finished almost.
The early 90s bits are fine as D2. It's the 80s(IIRC) Kettering bypass (originally A6) and the 70s Huntingdon-Cambridge section (originally A604) that are issues, and they couldn't predict that they would be used 20 years later to bodge together an E-W route (that was then planned to take a more southerly route, not going near Huntingdon or Kettering) when money was tight in a recession.
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The French built their Crossrails in the 1970s mainly, ie the RER network.
London built in the 1870s mainly, ie the SSL network. Later stuff (eg 1930s New Works) was also of a similar concept of taking over suburban rail lines, though using existing metros rather than new tunnels.

I'm certainly not saying that Crossrail isn't needed (ditto the A14), but that it's not like we are 30 years behind Paris and it's RER... In fact, it's as the Central line in East London, and Piccadilly line in West London perform like the RER, serving way out into zone 6, that Crossrail has an excellent business case, taking some of those longer distance passengers off those RER-type routes and leaving room for people in zones 1-3 to board trains without squeezing themselves in.
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The A14 is Britains core goods import/export route.
Does London not exist (as clearly we aren't meaning the very-much-adequate A14 east of Ipswich)? Or the other ports. Sure the A14 is vital, especially for freight (linking the biggest container port to lots of the country, and Kent to the east side of the country), but it is not the core route, or as you said earlier "the single main logistics route" as there are lots of other main logistics routes - the A34 and M20 surely count. Ditto the M25, M1, M6, etc.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

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Originally Posted by Mackem View Post
Alternatives to the A14 in Cambridgeshire are poor - the A428 is not easily accessed and the junction with the M11 is poor. You certainly wouldn't trek up to the A42 as an alternative to the A14.
You have made the same category mistake as the consultation. While the consultation ignored the N-S nature of Cambridge to Huntingdon, you are neglecting the E-W nature of the A14 itself.

The A428-A421-M1 route isn't much of a detour for going to Birmingham, and shorter for Northampton than A14-A45. The connection to the M11 doesn't matter for the routes I was thinking of for that - the decent connection to the Cambridge northern bypass is what matters: N-S routes would use the A1 to shunpike the now-scrapped toll.
Quote:
If you're going to Thamesport from the North East, Yorkshire, Scotland etc. (in a truck, which is what will be going there) you won't go all the way on the M1 as it uses more driving time, has a higher accident potential south of the M6 and currently will land you in roadworks on the M25. Much of the traffic crosses on the A66, A57 and the A14 from the Midlands. Driving time is all in this business.
I don't think anyone from West of Sheffield would take the A57. North of the A66, would indeed take the A66 and A1, but the majority of the NW's population, and all of the West Midlands, would use M1-M25, rather than the longer A14-M11.

And crossing to the A1 to head south from Leicester, Nottingham and Derby is best not done on the A14 (though isn't a bad alternative from Leicester, accessing it via the A6) - for those cities to Kent, the M1 is the shorter option, though all your points are valid and, as I said, "You could go that way from the M1 corridor, having headed over (on poor roads from Nottingham, etc) to the A1, and it makes sense if the M25 is snarled up and your route isn't, not being much slower.".

What you originally said was "if you're going to Thamesport you WILL use the A14 if you come from anywhere in the midlands or north."
I think we agree that "the North East, Yorkshire, Scotland etc." is not "anywhere in the midlands or north", given there is a large amount west of there. Shouting that they 'WILL use' the A14 adds to the hyperbole.

If you haven't guessed by now, I'm really not a fan of this hyperbole and misdirection. Most of this mammoth post has been devoted to dealing with that.
Quote:
As for the East Coast motorway, this was a scheme offered to business communities in the North East in the mid 1980s. In the end they selected the A1 upgrade scheme which has since been subject to various changes in the "political wind direction".
But it wasn't offered by any official body that has remit to build motorways in the UK. It was little more than a fantasy plan by men who add access to decent publicity...
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