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Old December 26th, 2014, 01:38 PM   #3941
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What is the busiest ferry route between Great Britain island and Ireland island?
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Old December 26th, 2014, 01:57 PM   #3942
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Holyhead to Dublin, Liverpool to Belfast.
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Old December 26th, 2014, 04:16 PM   #3943
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Lowestoft is a bastard to get to. Ît's not so bad when coming from London using the A12, but no proper road to the north of England and it takes hours and hours to get to a decent motorway or dual carriagway when heading to for example Yorkshire.
The A12-A47-A11-A14 route isn't bad for the Midlands

Depends where in London you are coming from, but the trunk route via Norwich is probably quicker, especially as the A12 in Essex needs another lane.

The Government have announced improvements of the A47 through Norfolk, giving a more direct route to the A1 (though still not great, but fine for the traffic, and not as direct as the A17).
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Holyhead to Dublin, Liverpool to Belfast.
I'd have thought that the Larne - Cairnryan route would be busier than Liverpool-Belfast, being significantly shorter.
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Old December 26th, 2014, 09:32 PM   #3944
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
I'd have thought that the Larne - Cairnryan route would be busier than Liverpool-Belfast, being significantly shorter.
Me too. Liverpool - Belfast sounds like a long crossing.
Do you know where one could find some official statistics?

Also, let's not forget about ferries between Rosslare and southern Wales. The problem is that there traffic splits between Fishguard and Pembroke. But still, I'm sure both routes are busier than Liverpool - Belfast route.

EDIT:
Found this:
Holyhead - Dublin 8 crossings daily
Liverpool - Dublin 3 crossings daily
Troon - Larne 14 crossings weekly
Cairnryan - Belfast 5 crossings daily
Pembroke - Rosslare 14 crossings weekly
Fishguard - Rosslare 14 crossings weekly
Holyhead - Dun Laoghaire 7 crossings weekly

Now the question is about the size of the ferries and how full they sail on each route.

Last edited by geogregor; December 26th, 2014 at 09:42 PM.
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Old December 26th, 2014, 10:43 PM   #3945
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https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...stics_2013.pdf

Says that in 2013, Cairnryan - Belfast carried 1.2m passengers, Holyhead-Dublin about 1.8m, and Cairnryan - Larne carried about 500k. Other Republic of Ireland ferries add up to 1.5m, Other NI ferries add up to 0.4m, with ferries to Scotland making up 1.8m of the 2.1m total. Birkenhead-Belfast is therefore under 0.3m
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Old December 27th, 2014, 12:30 AM   #3946
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
EDIT:
Found this:
Holyhead - Dublin 8 crossings daily
Liverpool - Dublin 3 crossings daily
Troon - Larne 14 crossings weekly
Cairnryan - Belfast 5 crossings daily
Pembroke - Rosslare 14 crossings weekly
Fishguard - Rosslare 14 crossings weekly
Holyhead - Dun Laoghaire 7 crossings weekly
Are those figures each way or round trip ("return," if you prefer)? Meaning, are there four boats or eight from Holyhead to Dublin each day?

EDIT: I guess the presence of odd numbers on the list answers that question.... :blush:
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Old December 27th, 2014, 11:38 AM   #3947
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...stics_2013.pdf

Says that in 2013, Cairnryan - Belfast carried 1.2m passengers, Holyhead-Dublin about 1.8m, and Cairnryan - Larne carried about 500k. Other Republic of Ireland ferries add up to 1.5m, Other NI ferries add up to 0.4m, with ferries to Scotland making up 1.8m of the 2.1m total. Birkenhead-Belfast is therefore under 0.3m
Thanks for that.
It would be nice to know breakdown of how many foot passengers, cars and lorries use each crossing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Are those figures each way or round trip ("return," if you prefer)? Meaning, are there four boats or eight from Holyhead to Dublin each day?

EDIT: I guess the presence of odd numbers on the list answers that question.... :blush:
Yes, these are crossings in one direction, meaning for example 8 boats from Holyhead to Dublin and 8 boats back or two a day from Pembroke to Rosslare and 2 from Rosslare to Pembroke
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Old December 27th, 2014, 09:00 PM   #3948
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Severn Bridges

Campaigners say Severn tolls among 'world's most expensive'

Somebody didn't do their research. The Severn Bridges are quite cheap (£ 6.50) compared to the tolls for the Great Belt Bridge in Denmark (£ 25), the Øresund Bridge from Denmark to Sweden (£ 38), the Hardanger Bridge in Norway (£ 13) the Mont Blanc Tunnel (£ 33) or Fréjus Tunnel (£ 33) between France and Italy.
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Old December 28th, 2014, 03:43 AM   #3949
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Someone didn't do their research.
From the article:
Quote:
CAST organiser councillor John Warman said: "The new year Severn toll bridge increases make it one of the most expensive bridge crossings in the world per mile."
So why give values for tunnels?

Why ignore the 'one of the' weasel words? Great Belt and Hardanger Bridges are more expensive, even when length is taken to account, but that doesn't mean that the Severn crossings aren't among the most expensive, even if two other bridges are more expensive (even if they were considerably more so, if the Severn Bridges are top 5, it's clear they warrant that description).
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Old December 28th, 2014, 04:11 AM   #3950
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Somebody didn't do their research. The Severn Bridges are quite cheap (£ 6.50) compared to the tolls for the Great Belt Bridge in Denmark (£ 25), the Øresund Bridge from Denmark to Sweden (£ 38), the Hardanger Bridge in Norway (£ 13) the Mont Blanc Tunnel (£ 33) or Fréjus Tunnel (£ 33) between France and Italy.
You only pay on one of them, the newer one westbound into Wales. The older one ( eastbound) is free or at least it was a few years back.
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Old December 28th, 2014, 11:23 AM   #3951
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On both bridges toll are charged Westwards only, Eastwards are free of charge.
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Old December 28th, 2014, 11:25 AM   #3952
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
So why give values for tunnels?
Does it matter? They provide the same kind of connection, leaving out tunnels is just a poor attempt to make their weak case sound stronger. It's also called 'cherry-picking'.

Quote:
Why ignore the 'one of the' weasel words?
It's simply not 'one of the world's most expensive toll bridges' with a 6.50 pound toll. In addition, the toll is only charged one way, so in reality a return trip will cost only 3.25 per crossing.

There are numerous bridges that charge 2 times as much, one way. There is a bridge that charges 6 times as much. And the examples aren't limited to the ones I gave.
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Old December 28th, 2014, 01:38 PM   #3953
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When some of the older of these crossings were built, it was said that tolls would be charged only until the cost was paid off.

Then when that point has been reached things change, and it just becomes a scheme to collect more revenue, the prices go up substantially, then the operation is privatised ...

The Dartford Crossing east of London is such a case. The tunnels are older, but when the bridge construction was being considered in the late 1980s it was meant to free once paid off, so the tolls should have been phased out 10 or 11 years ago. Instead it's now officially a charge not a toll. They are removing the toll booths, but because a number plate recognition scheme has been introduced, and people pay online.
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Old December 28th, 2014, 03:18 PM   #3954
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Does it matter? They provide the same kind of connection, leaving out tunnels is just a poor attempt to make their weak case sound stronger. It's also called 'cherry-picking'.
To ignore that he specifically said bridges is to cherry pick what he said. As you point out, cherry picking doesn't make for a convincing argument!
Quote:
It's simply not 'one of the world's most expensive toll bridges' with a 6.50 pound toll.
You still want to cherry pick the words he said - while not leaving out 'bridges' this time, you still cherry pick the words to leave out 'per mile'.

The guy pushing against the high tolls (and they are high, just not as extortionate as they are on a couple of crossings in Nordic countries or under the Alps) narrowed the claim to make his claim plausible, you've expanded the claim to show it's rubbish. Both are moving goalposts to try and make the argument seem better while not being wrong, but really are seen as (to quote you) "mak[ing] their weak case sound stronger".

---

That eastbound is free doesn't come into the guy's argument - he talks about off-putting cost to enter Wales. This is how normal people think - they don't think "well at least it would be free when coming back", they think "good heavens, £6.50 to cross the short distance to Wales, I'll rather not bother with that rip off". Well, OK they grudgingly fork out the money (or seek an alternate way into Wales), rather than avoid it, but they don't treat it as a return fare (because it isn't).

---

Quote:
There is a bridge that charges 6 times as much.
But is 6 times the length (18km vs 3km for M48 J1-2)!

If you are saying that the Oresund bridge-tunnel is truly expensive, then you are also saying that the Severn Bridge is expensive, not denying it!

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Originally Posted by andy5 View Post
The tunnels are older, but when the bridge construction was being considered in the late 1980s it was meant to free once paid off, so the tolls should have been phased out 10 or 11 years ago.
Unless the years have passed more quickly than I thought, it's more like 7 or 8. But even so, the grievance is valid.
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Old December 28th, 2014, 03:23 PM   #3955
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I believe sotonsi is one of the most unsympathetic members of this section. Either way, for UK standards it is truly expensive, and sometimes when coming from Dover me and some of my colleagues get off the M4 at Swindon and cut across via Gloucester just to save the tolls when going to South Wales.
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Old December 28th, 2014, 03:56 PM   #3956
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
... and sometimes when coming from Dover me and some of my colleagues get off the M4 at Swindon and cut across via Gloucester just to save the tolls when going to South Wales.
If one of the new road schemes the government was recently talking about will be at last sorting out the Birdlip area, that diversion may well become more popular.
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Old December 28th, 2014, 04:12 PM   #3957
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It is a bit of a bastard as well though that cards are not accepted on any of the tolls in the UK apart from M6 Toll. Cash only or tags.
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Old December 28th, 2014, 05:36 PM   #3958
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Well, building road infrastructure and its maintanance has to be financed somehow. Either from general taxation or via user fees (tolls etc)

The problem with having only few selected tolled crossing (like in the UK) is the fact that they penalize local population.
For example someone living in west London can regularly use M25 for free. His counterpart living in eastern part of greater London has to pay tolls on Dartford crossing.

Equally commuters from Bristol area towards southern Wales have to pay while those from Merseyside going to northern Wales go for free.

Either toll the whole network or drop the selective tolls, particularly where there is no alternative as they are effectively extra taxas on local population. They already pay fuel duty and other car realted taxes like anyone else.
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Old December 28th, 2014, 06:05 PM   #3959
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Campaigners say Severn tolls among 'world's most expensive'

Somebody didn't do their research. The Severn Bridges are quite cheap (£ 6.50) compared to the tolls for the Great Belt Bridge in Denmark (£ 25), the Øresund Bridge from Denmark to Sweden (£ 38), the Hardanger Bridge in Norway (£ 13) the Mont Blanc Tunnel (£ 33) or Fréjus Tunnel (£ 33) between France and Italy.
$14.00 to cross the Goethals Bridge from New Jersey to Staten Island, New York. (If you don't have E-ZPass.) I assume that's true of the other Port Authority crossings, too.

Greetings from "the world" beyond Europe. ;-)
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Old December 28th, 2014, 06:09 PM   #3960
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
I believe sotonsi is one of the most unsympathetic members of this section. Either way, for UK standards it is truly expensive, and sometimes when coming from Dover me and some of my colleagues get off the M4 at Swindon and cut across via Gloucester just to save the tolls when going to South Wales.
Well, arguing about whether the bridge is "one of" the most expensive in the world or not is a bit silly, I think, given that that "one of" renders the whole idea rather, well, vague.

But to your other point, how many tolls are there in the UK at all? This, Dartford, the M6....?
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