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Old January 26th, 2016, 10:50 PM   #4161
General Maximus
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There have been debates about building a outer M25 that would circle London widely east of Medway to Chelmsford, Luton, Reading, Gatwick and Maidstone. Not sure what happened to those plans. It would relief the current M25 a lot from long distance traffic...
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Old January 27th, 2016, 02:42 AM   #4162
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All green belt so not a runner Maximus. They have spent nearly 10 years trying to decide where to build a 4000m Runway in that general area and won't build that before 2025.

300km + of Motorway, Not a chance in hell in my lifetime. If they widen the M25 to 8-10 lanes each way instead then perhaps.....but the current M25 widening project is ongoing for 10 years and is nowhere near complete and nobody knows how they will expand the Dartford Crossing anyway, plenty of stillborn ideas down that way.
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Old January 27th, 2016, 03:48 AM   #4163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
That would significantly help congestion around Dartford crossing. All traffic coming from the Channel and heading to north UK would use this new link.
Though the designers don't seem to want them to!

It's going to be D2M, and the documents basically view it as a link between North Kent, South Essex and the M25 to Herts and the North, rather than a bypass of the Dartford area for Channel-bound traffic (there's some lip service, but there's not much).
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Originally Posted by General Maximus View Post
There have been debates about building a outer M25 that would circle London widely east of Medway to Chelmsford, Luton, Reading, Gatwick and Maidstone.
As has been said, it's very much a moot debate as it won't happen.
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Not sure what happened to those plans.
I would say that there weren't any, save in hobbyists personal collections, a small pro-roads lobbying group drawing a vague line on a map and a small anti-roads lobbying group seeing official plans for some routes that could be joined up into a vague circle* and making it out like some big conspiracy...

...but apparently there was a plan (singular) that a civil servant drew up official-like in the 70s and pinned on his office wall.

But basically "Nothing: as they were no more real than if I get a magic marker and use it on a road atlas!" is a valid answer to the question of what happened to the plans.
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It would relief the current M25 a lot from long distance traffic...
The M25 is almost all designed for long distance traffic with the unbuilt bits of Ringways 3/4 planned to carry the local traffic. The issue is that local traffic uses it, rather than the presence of long-distance traffic. It also would typically be longer than using the M25 to use an orbital route further out (as opposed to tangential routes).

Plus there's Green Belt (and the bigger issue, IMV, of AONBs) issue as well as NIMBYs galore.

*all of which had useful local purposes, and a handful had strategic purpose, but wouldn't make sense as part of an outer orbital:
  • A404: M40-M4 upgrade (link together two dual carriageways with a couple of miles of dual carriageways so that it can link Wycombe with the Thames Valley and relieve the M25 between J15 and J16 of some local traffic)
  • A331: Blackwater Spine Road (provide distribution in the large Camberley-Aldershot-Farnham urban area and improve access in the area to the M3, with a side effect of Guildford-South Thames Valley regional access avoiding the M25)
  • A5/A505: Dunstable/Luton Northern bypasses (access to developments and remove through traffic from Dunstable)
  • A120: Stansted to Colchester (Provides a shorter link from Cambridge to Colchester, a second Cambridge-Harwich/Felixstowe route, and a second link from the M25 to Colchester).
  • A130: Chelmsford to Southend (as well as providing local South Essex links, it was also about relieving the A12 between the M25 and Chelmsford by traffic going A13-A130 that's about the same distance).
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Old January 27th, 2016, 03:49 AM   #4164
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big trouble to widen to 8-10 lanes? How many feet is that

Why not a collector-express setup all the way around ? A 10 in Amsterdam is practically that...
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Old January 27th, 2016, 11:18 AM   #4165
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Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
big trouble to widen to 8-10 lanes? How many feet is that

Why not a collector-express setup all the way around ? A 10 in Amsterdam is practically that...
This is Britain, planning alone would take century.

Add all the NIMBYs and various bureaucracies and there is not a slightest chance for any comprehensive solution. Not in my lifetime.
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Old January 27th, 2016, 12:40 PM   #4166
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Attigham Park (National Trust) - Cressage

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Old January 27th, 2016, 03:10 PM   #4167
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Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
big trouble to widen to 8-10 lanes?
The M25 is already 8-10 lanes, save for J2-5 (with J2-3 planned for widening and J3-5 quiet enough not to need widening as it has very little long distance traffic) and J14-15 (which is 12 lanes), and through a few junctions (J7, J10, J11, J12, J15, J16, J20, J21-21A, J23, J25, J27, J28, J29, J30-31) where it's only a problem at a couple of those and more due to J10-12 and J15-16 needing to be wider than the 8-lanes they are now than the lane drop at the junction per se.
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How many feet is that
12ft a lane, 10ft for a hard shoulder. Easier to deal with than 3.6m/lane as most people can do the 12-times-table off the top of their head, but the 3.6-times-table is a little harder :P
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Why not a collector-express setup all the way around ?
Because it was more expensive than simple widening, though certainly J10-16 could do with it.
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Old January 27th, 2016, 03:51 PM   #4168
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A collector/express setup requires substantially more right-of-way than a regular configuration. In addition, it is less flexible, more expensive to operate and maintain and possibly confusing. Besides that, collector lanes are often used in areas with a high junction density, but M25's junctions are spaced fairly far apart.
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Old January 27th, 2016, 07:38 PM   #4169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
Why not a collector-express setup all the way around ? A 10 in Amsterdam is practically that...
Yeah, the A10 around Amsterdam has less than 2 kms worth of collector-express setup on a total length of 32 kms. You might be confused with another city.
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Old January 27th, 2016, 08:52 PM   #4170
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Someone like ChrisZ will probably know, but is there anywhere else in the world that has a 4-level stack between two D2 roads (as Option 4 on the Lower Thames Crossing proposes)?
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Old January 27th, 2016, 08:59 PM   #4171
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There are some stack interchanges between US major routes (non-interstate).
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Old January 27th, 2016, 09:05 PM   #4172
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Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
There are some stack interchanges between US major routes (non-interstate).
the ones I found were all D3 or wider (D2 through the interchange perhaps)
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Old January 27th, 2016, 09:54 PM   #4173
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There are some in Texas. The I-37 / I-410 interchange southeast of San Antonio is a four-level stack that connects two four-lane freeways.

The SH 99 / US 290 northwest of Houston is a stack interchange between two four-lane highways, but US 290 is currently being widened and the remaining direct connectors of stack interchange are due to open next week or so.

Austin has a volume of large stacks between four-lane toll roads, but none of them are classic four/five level stacks.

3-5 level stacks are pretty much the norm in Texas.
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Old January 28th, 2016, 03:56 AM   #4174
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If I understood correctly, longer trucks are not allowed (as of January/2016) on British motorways and designated routes as part of a trial.

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Old January 28th, 2016, 05:20 AM   #4175
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That's weird. I thought the global trend was towards longer trucks on motorways? What is the reasoning, reduced congestion from faster accleration? (even then that's weight not length...)
Ontario is 'piloting' dual trailers even, you see them all the time on the 401 near Cornwall (Wal-Mart logistics hub)

Quote:
Originally Posted by keokiracer View Post
Yeah, the A10 around Amsterdam has less than 2 kms worth of collector-express setup on a total length of 32 kms. You might be confused with another city.
Amsterdam is still Texas compared to Londongrad
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Old January 28th, 2016, 10:31 AM   #4176
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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Though the designers don't seem to want them to!

It's going to be D2M, and the documents basically view it as a link between North Kent, South Essex and the M25 to Herts and the North, rather than a bypass of the Dartford area for Channel-bound traffic (there's some lip service, but there's not much).
Why am I not surprised?
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Old January 28th, 2016, 12:54 PM   #4177
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It's going to be D2M
I'm afraid it isn't, it's going to be D2 all purpose, despite plenty of references in the documents to being a motorway-to-motorway link. There are costs shown for making it all D3, its about 10% extra which seems a bargain compared to the inevitable cost of having to widen it in 10 years time
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Old January 30th, 2016, 09:19 PM   #4178
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If it were to be built to motorway standard (and signed as such), would it be signed as an extension of the M2?

I'm just throwing a wild guess. They are avoiding the M-word to please the anti-motorway fanatics. I'm not sure what is most frightening, that such cunning trickery would actually work on the anti-M-way lobby, or that they (the project management) believe it would make a difference.

10% is not a lot, but it is still money. However, if someone whipped out their calculator and figured out how much more it would have cost to rebuild the whole British M-way system from D2M to D3M, then it sould really be a no-brainer that this road has to be D3M.
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Old January 31st, 2016, 11:51 PM   #4179
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I've spotted little display about archaeology done during construction of the Clacket Lane services on M25. Conveniently located close to toilets

IMG_20151111_195912_867
by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Nice touch. Never seen anything similar on any other services.
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Old February 3rd, 2016, 10:57 PM   #4180
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Did you hear about the idea of not painting white lines to force drivers to slow down? I know about concept of "shared space" in towns but just not painting white lines? Does it really change behaviour that much?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35480736

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