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Old May 18th, 2016, 04:45 PM   #4221
sotonsi
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I've noted the high cost of converting a D3M with shoulders to a D4 without shoulders as well. I wonder what the cause is. These projects also tend to require a much longer construction time than shoulder running projects in the Netherlands, which are typically built in 6-9 months with only night-time paving / closures.
In the UK they resurface the whole road and add massive gantries with electronic signs every 400m or so. We probably do overpay, but it's not just changing the paint turning 3x12' lanes and 10' shoulder to 2x11' and 2x12' lanes.
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Old May 18th, 2016, 05:00 PM   #4222
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I'm aware of that, but in the Netherlands they also resurface the entire motorway and not just the shoulder.

For example, they added shoulder running on A7 Purmerend - Amsterdam (6 miles). It was entirely repaved, with night-time resurfacing only, and it was built between 24 August and 5 December 2015 at a cost of € 25 million.

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Old May 18th, 2016, 07:11 PM   #4223
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In the UK they resurface the whole road and add massive gantries with electronic signs every 400m or so. We probably do overpay, but it's not just changing the paint turning 3x12' lanes and 10' shoulder to 2x11' and 2x12' lanes.
But when we resurface the roads after motorway widening we only resurface the top layer rather than doing deeper reconstruction, and an ageing road structure combined with relocated wheel tracks above longitudinal joints means the new road surface fails quite severely after only a few years of use.

As for gantries and signage, British motorway signage could withstand a nuclear bomb. Our European neighbours typically use much more slender gantries and smaller signs, which do the job just as well but at a lower cost.
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Old May 18th, 2016, 07:40 PM   #4224
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Top layer resurfacing works as long as it's done on time. If you wait too long, cracks go into the foundation, requiring a full-depth replacement.

Top layer resurfacing is the typical approach in the Netherlands. It's resurfaced quickly and cost-effectively every 7-12 years, so the motorways can operate without the need for long-term roadworks. However starting in the late 1990s there was a maintenance backlog and they did have to do some full-depth replacement work in 2006-2007 as the top layer resurfacing method wasn't effective anymore.

That's why cutting corners on maintenance is more expensive in the long term.
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Old May 19th, 2016, 09:18 AM   #4225
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(M20)Hythe - (M20)Maidstone / (09.05.2016)

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Old May 19th, 2016, 12:21 PM   #4226
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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
In the UK they resurface the whole road and add massive gantries with electronic signs every 400m or so. We probably do overpay, but it's not just changing the paint turning 3x12' lanes and 10' shoulder to 2x11' and 2x12' lanes.
And the price I quote for a full widening with an extra lane in Denmark also includes new overpasses if needed, widening underpasses, resurfacing the whole road and in-depth repair of the foundation - if needed - plus electronic signage. The Britisk construction cost are just beyond any good explanation.
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Old May 19th, 2016, 04:51 PM   #4227
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As far as I know the old bridge will stay but will be used by buses, cyclist and pedestrians.
A suspension, a cantilever, and a cable-stayed bridge all next to each other. Will be a great place to go for interested young engineers.
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Old May 21st, 2016, 01:15 PM   #4228
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A102 in London, views northbound towards the Blackwall Tunnels:

P5150692
by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P5150693
by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P5150695
by Geogregor*, on Flickr

And southbound:

P5150700
by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P5150701
by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P5150704
by Geogregor*, on Flickr
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Old May 21st, 2016, 11:16 PM   #4229
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some historical footage of the 1950s
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Old May 22nd, 2016, 10:54 PM   #4230
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(M20) Maidstone - (M26)Caterham

Road signs don't look great but i'm workin' on it
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Old May 25th, 2016, 09:29 PM   #4231
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(M25)Bletchingley - (M25)Chertsey (x2.6)

Generally.

I'm a bit dissapointed with the fact that most drivers avoid driving the inside lane, even though they only move 50-60 mph they tend to remain in the outside lane/s for a looooong time, some of them do not change the lane at all, blocking the traffic. I do understand, that there are 3 - 4 lanes on motorways and the speed limit is 70mph, but if you are not overtaking, just change your bloody lane - please!

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Old May 26th, 2016, 10:42 AM   #4232
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if you are not overtaking, just change your bloody lane - please!
From one of the umpteen times we've had this discussion before...
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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
On the M25 there used to be, until recently, big signs on entry to the VSL sections telling you specifically not to weave about lanes observe proper lane discipline. AVOID CHANGING LANES was on the signs to increase capacity by decreasing the amount of near-misses.
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Plus the "CONGESTION STAY IN LANE" on [Variable Message] signs is proven to reduce congestion, and only scuppered by selfish lane discipline Vogons that refuse to obey it.
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Old May 26th, 2016, 07:36 PM   #4233
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Those signs may be reducing the congestions but they are caused by poor driving. If everyone used a correct lane, those signs would not be needed.
Also, I am talking about situations like those filmed - my speed is max 60mph, cars behind me 70mph maybe more and the congestion was being built.

https://youtu.be/oS0PETknAAA?t=2m5s

Recently I have had the pleasure to drive on German and Belgian motorways and no "stay in line" signs are needed there, even in the huge traffic.(not on this video)


Last edited by AvB; May 26th, 2016 at 07:45 PM.
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Old May 27th, 2016, 02:14 AM   #4234
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forget Germany, I've never seen those signs in any country.
Considering the infamous congestion of the M25 and their rarity in any other country I question their effectiveness and utility

I guess it is one of those Galapogos-effect things you see a lot of in the UK, stay in lane signs, driving on the other side of the road, weird and absurdly complex (and incompatible) electrical mains plugs...
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Old May 28th, 2016, 02:55 AM   #4235
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sotonsi, who's arguing about changing lanes all the time in congestion? No one, so why are you bringing it up? It's clearly irrelevant, stop bringing it up and deal with the actual issue of drivers sitting in overtaking lanes, overtaking nothing, and holding traffic up behind them.
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Old May 28th, 2016, 04:56 AM   #4236
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Those signs may be reducing the congestions but they are caused by poor driving. If everyone used a correct lane, those signs would not be needed.
Indeed they wouldn't, hence why the signs are needed to tell them to use the correct lane - ie to keep lane changes to a minimum and thus potential conflicts down.

If the congestion was caused by lane hogging, then the signs would be saying "keep left unless overtaking", rather than "stay in lane". And there would be more than 1 prosecution in the UK for lane hogging since the Government promised a 'clamp down' several years ago.
Quote:
Recently I have had the pleasure to drive on German and Belgian motorways and no "stay in line" signs are needed there
That their aren't such signs, or that they aren't needed doesn't mean that they wouldn't help. The lack of need could be down to less extreme congestion. The lack of signs can be down to all sorts of things - close minded 'lane discipline' people refusing to contemplate it, lack of money, lack of serious congestion, etc.
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Considering the infamous congestion of the M25 and their rarity in any other country I question their effectiveness and utility
The M25 is congested for many reasons, most notably the fact that, given they didn't build most of the rest of the London area's motorway network it should have been 5-lanes most of the way round 20 years ago, and has only just reached 4-lanes on those stretches in the last couple of years.

The Stay in Lane advice is a result of the congestion requiring radical solutions, rather than the cause of it.
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sotonsi, who's arguing about changing lanes all the time in congestion? No one, so why are you bringing it up?
I didn't bring it up. I was responding to someone complaining about lane discipline on the M25, pointing out the people being complained about were doing exactly what drivers are told to do on that specific road to avoid congestion (ie something that happens when the road isn't congested) - avoid changing lanes.
Quote:
It's clearly irrelevant
A congested M25 is indeed irrelevant but I never mentioned a congested M25, other than the case which these signs are helping avoid and reduce.

And sure - if this was complaining about lane discipline on another road, the signs on the M25 are irrelevant and I wouldn't have mentioned them.
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stop bringing it up
I didn't bring it up. I never have and as you didn't get my exasperated 'from one of the umpteenth times we've had this discussion', I have to say I'm quite sick of the discussion, even though the last time, which I quoted myself on, was two years ago.

I hate it, it's one of those lazy prejudices where someone mentions it and then out of the woodwork pop up a lot of intolerant Vogons who turn the thread into a hatefest for a couple of days. This time, like the last (and the couple of times before that), I sought to nip the bile-filled bigotry in the bud and explain that avoiding changing lanes is the good practise way of driving on the M25, hence why these people are doing it. OK, these was linked to a jerk driving too slowly in the outside lane and slowing that lane down well below the speed limit, but I foresaw that the lane discipline stazi would crawl out of the woodwork and not see the problem as one driver going too slowly as the problem, but rather the highly-researched best-practice for the M25.

Perhaps I should have learnt that stepping in to try and quell the hate just leads to me getting all the vitriol instead.
Quote:
deal with the actual issue of drivers sitting in overtaking lanes, overtaking nothing, and holding traffic up behind them.
If they are actually holding up traffic behind them, due to being in the outside lane, driving below the speed the conditions and law allow and not moving over - like in the OP's complaint - then sure, that is an annoyance and inconsiderate driving. My mention of the signs was merely to explain, not to excuse, slow drivers hogging the outside lane.

However lets move beyond that to the more general issue because I know it's an underlying problem for those who have come out to argue that 'keep left unless overtaking' is holy writ and 'Stay in lane' as blasphemy. If they were driving at the speed limit and either had a lane to the outside of them that was empty for overtaking, or moved in to be overtaken, (ie not holding traffic up) then what's the problem?

This is how traffic on the M25 tends to operate when its neither empty or rammed, though there's always the odd idiots who genuinely are holding traffic up rather than merely delaying one car for a few seconds.
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Old May 28th, 2016, 11:40 AM   #4237
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I think, it's worth to mention, that "keep in lane" communicate is displayed on VSL signs only together with (50)speed limit, or lower (never seen in any other circumstances) , so basically, while carriageway is already congested. And only in such case(s) it is reasonable (all vehicles are able to reach this speed, including lorries), thus overtaking/lane changing is not necessary. In normal traffic "keep to the left" (if possible) rule still has to be observed by all drivers, but it isn't.
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Old May 29th, 2016, 01:38 AM   #4238
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I do get the impression that over the past few years undertaking has decreased somewhat on the M25 and that people are keeping more to the left, but not quite all the way over for whatever reason, than before.
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Old May 29th, 2016, 02:36 AM   #4239
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Enjoy ,(M25)Cobham - (M25)LOM J14


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Old June 1st, 2016, 10:45 AM   #4240
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Quote:
Balfour Beatty bags £130m M20 lorry park job

Highways England has picked Balfour Beatty to build a 3,600-space lorry park in Kent near the M20 to relieve congestion when cross-Channel services are disrupted.

The contract involves development of the proposals during the early contractor involvement phase of the project and will also cover the construction of the lorry area subject to a decision to proceed from Government.

The contract is valued at up to £130m and will be a key part of the overall £250m lorry area, announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in Autumn 2015.

With the number of goods vehicles crossing from Kent forecast to double by the mid-2020s, the lorry area will provide a much needed, long term solution to Operation Stack, the emergency procedure whereby lorries are queued on parts of the M20 when unable to cross to the continent.

Balfour Beatty will use the latest Building Information Modelling to define the most efficient approach to design and the construction programme and optimise the design of the structures whilst reducing time on site and cost and enhancing safety.


Leo Quinn, Balfour Beatty Group Chief Executive, said: “Balfour Beatty’s expertise in major infrastructure projects and long standing relationship with Highways England will be crucial for the safe and successful delivery of this project.

“The M20 lorry area will provide much needed relief to Kent’s road networks while supporting local economic growth and development”.

At peak construction, the project could employ up to 150 workers and is anticipated to be partially open by the summer of 2017.
http://www.constructionenquirer.com/...orry-park-job/
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