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Old March 2nd, 2009, 09:39 PM   #621
Nick_A34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
I take it you haven't heard on the Leighton Buzzard southern bypass. It ends at the end of the A418 - it's rather pointlessly out of zone.
Sorry I did miss that.

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Originally Posted by ea1969 View Post
A55: West of Bangor it shadows the A5; it also passes the 4/5 Zone boundary many times.
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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Ends have absolutely nothing to do with the zonal allocation.
But from the CBRD article the start/finish appears to be critical: Under the rules introduced in 1922, every road had a starting point which was at its furthest anticlockwise terminus and roads can only proceed around the country clockwise. Therefore if the A55 finishes on the A5 then it is in the 5 zone. Which leaves the A282 in a possible in-zone situation. It's furthest anti clockwise position is in the 2 zone and it heads clockwise into zone 1.

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there is no debate - there's only a debate if you don't understand the rules.
There has been plenty of debate over on SABRE.
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Old March 2nd, 2009, 10:57 PM   #622
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It seems to be it would be a lot simpler if you guys followed the German model of numbering motorways after the parent motorway they spur off from. It would actually work better for the British radial road system than the German grid road system (Germany's road system is similar to the US's, no?) since all road in England and Wales are supposed to lead to London (and all roads in Scotland are supposed to lead to Edinburgh), if that makes sense.
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Old March 3rd, 2009, 04:10 AM   #623
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Originally Posted by ttownfeen View Post
It seems to be it would be a lot simpler if you guys followed the German model of numbering motorways after the parent motorway they spur off from. It would actually work better for the British radial road system than the German grid road system (Germany's road system is similar to the US's, no?) since all road in England and Wales are supposed to lead to London (and all roads in Scotland are supposed to lead to Edinburgh), if that makes sense.
That was one of the ideas considered for England & Wales. It was partly rejected as the first long distance motorway would have been given the M5 number as it parallels the A5 as opposed to the A1. Scotland has gone with the principle of using the same number and it does happen in England (e.g. the M23/A23, M4/A4, M27/A27) but they can be quite different (e.g. M5/A38). Often the Motorway only partly parallels the similarly numbered A road (e.g. M40/A40) or is in completely the wrong place (M54 is close to the M5 not the A54).
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Old March 3rd, 2009, 06:58 PM   #624
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And the M62 should be the M52, due to it starting west of the M6. The reason for this though, is that the section east of the M6 is older than the western section.
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Old March 3rd, 2009, 08:43 PM   #625
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That was one of the ideas considered for England & Wales. It was partly rejected as the first long distance motorway would have been given the M5 number as it parallels the A5 as opposed to the A1. Scotland has gone with the principle of using the same number and it does happen in England (e.g. the M23/A23, M4/A4, M27/A27) but they can be quite different (e.g. M5/A38). Often the Motorway only partly parallels the similarly numbered A road (e.g. M40/A40) or is in completely the wrong place (M54 is close to the M5 not the A54).
Good job to Pathetic Motorways for the article. Reading the Ministry of Transport memos, it seems the main reason the "tree system" lost to the "sector system" was fear of running about of two digit numbers for all the branches.

Seems to be the whole problem stem from the fact that they decided to name the Birmingham-Bristol motorway M5 for no reason from what I gather before a numbering system was put in place and then tried to fit a numbering system around the M5 instead of considering renaming the M5 once a system was in place.

Hindsight is 20/20, of course.
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Old March 3rd, 2009, 08:52 PM   #626
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Is the M40 an important motorway? (It would seem so since it connects London and Birmingham.) If so, why wasn't it given a single digit number? Looking at Google Maps, it seems would be more logical to have the M6 follow the path of the M40 (using the M5 and M42 path to get around the west and south of B'ham) all the way to London instead going east from Birmingham to merging into the M1.
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Old March 3rd, 2009, 09:18 PM   #627
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The M40 is much newer than the others.
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Old March 4th, 2009, 11:18 AM   #628
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Well, Birmingham has 2 motorway connections with London, M40 and M1+M6
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Old March 4th, 2009, 05:54 PM   #629
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Is there a good UK motorway picture website like aaroads.com?

CBRD and Pathetic Motorways have small collections at best.
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Old March 5th, 2009, 01:40 AM   #630
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttownfeen View Post
Seems to be the whole problem stem from the fact that they decided to name the Birmingham-Bristol motorway M5 for no reason from what I gather before a numbering system was put in place and then tried to fit a numbering system around the M5 instead of considering renaming the M5 once a system was in place.
I don't think it necessarily the case. The plans from the 50s called for only 4 spokes from London going long distance. There were more spokes planned but they were relatively short at the time. Once they got to 4, they then moved onto Birmingham as a secondary hub which got 5 & 6. At the time the link from the M1 to the M6 hadn't been decided upon. I believe there was some discussion about extending the M45 (though don't quote me on that!).

The rest of the spokes were reserved for Scotland.

I suppose in the end what you have got is the decision to treat the motorway network as almost completely separate from the all purpose network, so they created a numbering system around that. In Scotland they went a different way, with the result that you have no M7 but an M876.

The obsession with avoiding three digit numbers was a bit bizarre!

As an aside if you enjoyed PM, try the UK Motorway Archive.
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Old March 5th, 2009, 01:43 AM   #631
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Is there a good UK motorway picture website like aaroads.com?

CBRD and Pathetic Motorways have small collections at best.
Try SABRE. There is quite an extensive photo gallery there.
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Old March 7th, 2009, 05:03 PM   #632
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I was just browsing Google Maps when I came across this abomination. Who in their right mind gave that thing its own two digit M number? What's wrong with numbering it A414(M)?
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Old March 7th, 2009, 05:45 PM   #633
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Bear in mind that it was the second motorway in the country to open (along with the M1 between what's now j5 and j18, and the M45 - another 2-digit motorway that's really not worth such a good number). The A414 didn't go that way in 1959 anyway (Park Street was the A5/A405 junction back then), nor were there planned to be that many more motorways. Anyway, the 1-zone still has lots of spare numbers - even if you had the ringways there'd probably be a spare number or two still.

It's also being/been* downgraded to A414 as part of the M1 widening works, though will remain restricted to motor vehicles only.

*delete as applicable
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Old March 8th, 2009, 01:18 AM   #634
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Bear in mind that it was the second motorway in the country to open (along with the M1 between what's now j5 and j18, and the M45 - another 2-digit motorway that's really not worth such a good number). The A414 didn't go that way in 1959 anyway (Park Street was the A5/A405 junction back then), nor were there planned to be that many more motorways. Anyway, the 1-zone still has lots of spare numbers - even if you had the ringways there'd probably be a spare number or two still
Ah, I see. But aren't most of those spare numbers the result of not building motorways like the M12 and M13? I think it would have been a lot more reasonable to number this road M100 or something similar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
It's also being/been* downgraded to A414 as part of the M1 widening works, though will remain restricted to motor vehicles only.

*delete as applicable
Yeah, I read about that on Pathetic Motorways. I still think it's a bit odd that they numbered it M10 in the first place.
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Old March 9th, 2009, 02:32 AM   #635
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Ah, I see. But aren't most of those spare numbers the result of not building motorways like the M12 and M13? I think it would have been a lot more reasonable to number this road M100 or something similar.
if you read my post, you'll see that I said that there would have been spare numbers even if London's plans went ahead.
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Yeah, I read about that on Pathetic Motorways. I still think it's a bit odd that they numbered it M10 in the first place.
why? It was to be the closest spur to the hub, in the 1-zone. There wasn't planned to be many more spurs when it was open, especially as it was South of Leeds that the 1-zone went to (18 and 19 taken in Yorkshire). 17 would have been at Castle Donnington, with the M45 as M12.

There was absolutely no reason to number it anything other than M10, or perhaps another M1x when it opened, unless you just considered it as long slip roads from the M1 and just left it without it's own number (and the Luton spur didn't get that).

There were no Ax(M)s at that point, and motorway numbering was still up in the air - the M6 is called that almost by accident - it could have been M2. There was no decision by any central planning system for it to be M6 - it was a localised decision. The M1 got it's number pretty much when they ordered the signs, ditto M10 and M45. This didn't go through the proper bureaucracy that was planned - it seemed to be almost another scheme-based decision. It wasn't an upgrade of an A road, nor a spur to one (it was a spur to two - the A405 and the A5). There was no way it would have ever been worth it to call it A414(M).

The 1980s widening to three lanes, south of junction 7 (which had 7-8 n/b widened to 4-lanes, thanks to weaving) still didn't make it worth it. However the widening to 4-lanes has allowed collector-distributor carriageways to be built, allowing j7 to j8 to not have to use the M1 mainline. As the M10 doesn't lead inescapably to a motorway any more, they can/have downgrade(d) it to A414 (though left some restrictions - it's still a special road AFAIK - so learner car drivers are the only people to be allowed access that were denied before), which was rerouted in 1986 (with the M25) to go round the south of St Albans, taking over the A405 and the A4147, multiplexing with the M1 and M10. The A4147 (which used to go to M1 j8) was rerouted over the old A414 to central St Albans (with the out of zone A1057 rerouted over the other half of former A414).
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Old March 9th, 2009, 04:11 AM   #636
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Quote:
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I was just browsing Google Maps when I came across this abomination. Who in their right mind gave that thing its own two digit M number? What's wrong with numbering it A414(M)?
LOL, I see what you mean...I remember the M10. I don't even know why it has it's own "M" designation to begin with....it's basically just a slip road to get onto the M1.

Perhaps there was a much greater plan for a longer M10 back in the day? Either way, it's a waste of a 2 digit motorway!
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Old March 20th, 2009, 11:07 PM   #637
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A1 and M11 need widening.

End of.
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Old March 21st, 2009, 12:30 AM   #638
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Now in Streetview

http://maps.google.com/maps?t=h&hl=d...993552886,,0,5
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Old March 24th, 2009, 04:20 AM   #639
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On the subject of streetview, the M8 through Central Glasgow is particularly awesome.

There's a lovely view of the famous ski-jump ramps as well, looks like they're been overrun by pikies now.

Last edited by Exethalion; March 24th, 2009 at 04:27 AM.
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Old March 26th, 2009, 04:35 AM   #640
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never been to Scotland, but I think the nicest Motorways in England to drive are the M1 in Midlands and the M40 in Buckinghamshire. Almost no queues, nice scenery and in case of M40, beautiful cars. In this way, the South East of England is very special
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