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Old May 5th, 2010, 02:49 PM   #1101
jandeczentar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abritishguy View Post
You do know that something like that was planned during the 60's/70's, right?

http://www.cbrd.co.uk/histories/ringways/
It's a pity most of the ringways plan was never built. Now I know why the M25 is so congested: it's taking the traffic intended for at least 2 roads.

Technically, London does have an inner ringroad: the north and south circular roads. In places the A406 north circular road could pass for a motorway, however, in reality it is not even a dual carriageway for its entire length. The A205 south circular road is mostly single carriageway and was largely cobbled together from existing streets. No one could ever mistake it for a motorway.

As I understand it, inner London's road network is mostly derived from a 17th century design (after the Great Fire) which, in turn, was derived from the medieval design. It's not surprising London is so congested.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 06:01 PM   #1102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jandeczentar View Post
It's a pity most of the ringways plan was never built. Now I know why the M25 is so congested: it's taking the traffic intended for at least 2 roads.

Technically, London does have an inner ringroad: the north and south circular roads. In places the A406 north circular road could pass for a motorway, however, in reality it is not even a dual carriageway for its entire length. The A205 south circular road is mostly single carriageway and was largely cobbled together from existing streets. No one could ever mistake it for a motorway.

As I understand it, inner London's road network is mostly derived from a 17th century design (after the Great Fire) which, in turn, was derived from the medieval design. It's not surprising London is so congested.
The irony is, when the first plans for London's rebuild after the Great Fire were drawn up, broad Boulevards, rather like those in Paris today, were planned, along with a more grid-iron layout.

In the end, they decided to largely reconstruct the city along the original mediaeval street patterns, a historic error I think, as it has exacerbated congestion and left that part of London with a less than impressive architectural legacy (not that WWII exactly helped either...)

The South Circular is a joke. Something really needs to be done about that...
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Old May 5th, 2010, 07:29 PM   #1103
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As they did not catch the opportunity at the time of the "Ringways" planning, I do not think that anything could be done in the future. The trend in Britain is clearly against road construction.

South London is a problem by its geography, there is no chance for a wide road passing through borough high streets and poor public transport comparing with North London.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 11:32 PM   #1104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jandeczentar View Post
It's a pity most of the ringways plan was never built. Now I know why the M25 is so congested: it's taking the traffic intended for at least 2 roads.

Technically, London does have an inner ringroad: the north and south circular roads. In places the A406 north circular road could pass for a motorway, however, in reality it is not even a dual carriageway for its entire length. The A205 south circular road is mostly single carriageway and was largely cobbled together from existing streets. No one could ever mistake it for a motorway.

As I understand it, inner London's road network is mostly derived from a 17th century design (after the Great Fire) which, in turn, was derived from the medieval design. It's not surprising London is so congested.
Technically, half the ringways plan was built. The M25 as it stands today was part Ringway 3 and part ringway 4. They even built the eastern half of Ringway 1.

The major problem the ringways faced, as was mentioned in the link I posted, was NIMBYism, especially as the southern half of the ringways plan would essentially destroy vast parts of London. This, and the general cost (Ringway 1 would've cost £1 billion IN 1970) spelt the end of the ringways, even if it did end up being watered down to the M25 as we have it today.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 09:37 PM   #1105
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The problem is that the M25 is a bit far away for local movements within Greater London. For example driving from Ealing to Greenwich could last for ages using the A205.

Although there was certainly the NIMBY-movement, they could have constructed in the south something like the A406 (although it has its problems as well - ie. Hanger Lane).
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Old May 9th, 2010, 10:05 PM   #1106
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Does anyone have any idea why primary dual carriages(expressways) have the same speed limit as motorways if, they are not quite up to the same safety standards such as raised kerbs(curbs), lack of hard shoulder, shorter entrance ramps, etc...?

I would assume that if the safety standards are not quite as high as motorways, the speed limit would be a bit lower, such as 65 or something.
The speed limit for cars and small vans is the same as for motorways. The speed limit for larger vehicles is 10mph lower (50 for large trucks, 60 for small trucks, large vans and coaches).

Also, some dual carriageways have had their speed limits reduced to 50 or 60 in the last few years. There is a bit of the A24, for example, south of Horsham where there is a 60mph speed limit because the road is windy despite being a dual carriageway.
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Old May 16th, 2010, 05:07 AM   #1107
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Originally Posted by CairnsTony View Post

Interestingly, Scotland appears to be the exception. There, quite a few proper motorways have appeared in the last couple of decades. They're building a few other extensions as I type this. Any Scottish posters wish to enlighten us as to why this should be?
Well I'm by no means an expert but I am Scottish.

The M74 is finally being completed 40 years late. The problem is that when the M8 was built in the 60/70s it ploughed right through Glasgow destroying historic parts of the city that wouldn't even be contemplated now. The masterplan was abandoned half complete, the "ski jumps" at the Kingston Bridge are evidence of flyovers that go nowhere.

However, the Kingston Bridge deals with something like 150k-200k vehicles a day so the extension really is necessary. There was a lot of protests and the public inquiry rejected it but it was pushed through by the Scottish Government. I suppose a six lane motorway on stilts will be pretty imposing but it's going through a pretty grotty part of the city atleast.

As for the other projects I guess it's because we have a pretty feable motorway network so most motorist atleast think they are necessary. Even Glasgow to Edinburgh isn't motorway standard all the way, for example. Dundee and Aberdeen don't have bypasses either. In more rural parts there is more public demand for road upgrades and dualing because of the amount of serious accidents on the existing A roads, as well as traffic problems obviously.
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Old May 16th, 2010, 05:35 AM   #1108
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Old May 16th, 2010, 12:00 PM   #1109
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Originally Posted by kramer81 View Post
Well I'm by no means an expert but I am Scottish.

The M74 is finally being completed 40 years late. The problem is that when the M8 was built in the 60/70s it ploughed right through Glasgow destroying historic parts of the city that wouldn't even be contemplated now. The masterplan was abandoned half complete, the "ski jumps" at the Kingston Bridge are evidence of flyovers that go nowhere.

However, the Kingston Bridge deals with something like 150k-200k vehicles a day so the extension really is necessary. There was a lot of protests and the public inquiry rejected it but it was pushed through by the Scottish Government. I suppose a six lane motorway on stilts will be pretty imposing but it's going through a pretty grotty part of the city atleast.

As for the other projects I guess it's because we have a pretty feable motorway network so most motorist atleast think they are necessary. Even Glasgow to Edinburgh isn't motorway standard all the way, for example. Dundee and Aberdeen don't have bypasses either. In more rural parts there is more public demand for road upgrades and dualing because of the amount of serious accidents on the existing A roads, as well as traffic problems obviously.
Thanks for that. I guess what surprises me is that some seriously congested routes in England have not received similar upgrades. There can of course be obvious reasons sometimes: a motorway between Manchester and Sheffield for example, would plough straight through the Peak District National Park. But there are other more surprising omissions which may be purely due to local opposition, such as a South Coast motorway between Portsmouth and the Channel ports, or motorway links to Plymouth, Norwich and Ipswich for example. Do the exisiting dual carriageway upgrades do the job anyone?
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Old May 16th, 2010, 04:09 PM   #1110
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A few photos I took on Tuesday:

Damn I forgot to resize them, i'll re do them, which'll take another hour

Ok, here we go again

The very short, not very good and strange M271








M27, followed by the M3 and other roads and then again the M3






































Last edited by DanielFigFoz; May 16th, 2010 at 04:47 PM.
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Old May 16th, 2010, 05:32 PM   #1111
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Good pics Daniel

Why don't they repair a motorway all together? In some of the pics some lanes look smoother than others but then they all look fine in the following pic. Isn't it a waste of money to do parcial repairings?
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Old May 16th, 2010, 05:47 PM   #1112
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Thank you, I don't really know why, there must be a reason, for example I believe that it is possible that a part of the M271 is owned by the Highways Agency, whereas other parts of it is owned by Southampton City Council. I'm not sure of that one, but I know that the M275 is owned by Portsmouth City Council.
Here's a bit of information on the M271

Quote:
This is a troubled little motorway. It doesn't ask for much, it just shifts traffic around the west of Southampton, connecting the M27 bypass to the docks and providing a few local connections. It isn't a big job, and yet somehow the M271 gets it all wrong.

Take, for example, its number. It lies entirely west of the M3, so surely it should have a number beginning with a 3? No, apparently not.

Worse, take its interchange with the M27. It's a roundabout with peak time traffic signals, and only one lane on the southbound flyover. Not exactly a motorway standard route.

In fact, it has only one junction on its route that isn't just a flat roundabout (two of which are grade separated to give priority to another route). Its one full junction fails entirely to meet a classified road. Oh dear.

Its number, and the existence of the M275 near Portsmouth, suggests a number of other M27 spurs were planned (and also explains the numbering anomaly).
and

Quote:
Where is it?

Junction diagramM27 junction 3, where Southampton's bypass and part of the south coast trunk route crosses a short spur motorway, leading to the city and docks.
What's wrong with it?

If you've looked at the junction diagram already you should know. The M271 - not much of a road, but still a motorway - is interrupted by a roundabout. If the route of the M271 is busy enough to warrant a motorway, surely the motorway built there should be built to the correct standards. There's only one actual grade-separated junction on the M271; the other three (this and the termini) are roundabouts. It's a motorway alright, but only because it has an "M".
Why is it wrong?

This should have been the northern end of the M271 - a roundabout is an acceptable ending for a motorway. However, building a junction here on the M27 meant that there wasn't room for another to serve the local area. Rather than making the locals go without, or - god forbid - drive an extra mile to reach the junction on the M271, the planners decided to add a new link road to the A3057. But because this roundabout had motorway restrictions, and the only other connecting roads were motorways, the new spur road had to be a motorway too. So the M271 continues to the north, interrupted by a roundabout. More joined up planning from the people who brought you the A601(M).
What would be better?

If you're going to build a motorway, make it motorway standard. If you can't make it motorway standard, don't make it a motorway. Let's downgrade the M271 to an A-road, since it's wrongly numbered anyway (it should have a number beginning with a 3). That way, it has a valid number and the junctions are up to scratch.
Right to reply

Hate this junction? Or do you think it hasn't had a fair trial? Make yourself heard! Post a comment.

These are the most recent comments on this junction. You can see all comments if you prefer.
October 2009

An anonymous contributor has come to a complete stop:

There was never a major problem at this junction, coming from Portsmouth direction, until they added traffic lights. There used to be a dedicated lane to go straight onto the M271 and one for Romsey access. Now everyone has to stop, causing tailbacks onto the motorway which never existed before they decided to "improve" the junction. Madness.
May 2007

Jim Champion notes the latest changes:

Back in March 2006 some changes were made to this bad junction. And to be honest the traffic flow has improved in the early morning rush hour, but I don't have any evidence for a causal link.

The changes:

* northbound side of the roundabout (over the M27) is now three lanes.
* southbound side of the roundabout (over the M27) is now two lanes, with a new set of traffic lights controlling traffic going straight on (onto M271 towards southampton) or right (onto M27 slip westbound).
* westbound slip off the M27 up to the roundabout now starts earlier, meaning no hard shoulder for some distance on the M27 (a blue sign announces this).
* no longer a dedicated slip at the roundabout from M27 westbound onto M271 southbound - instead all traffic coming off M27 is controlled by traffic light at the top.
* Its still a busy junction, but I think its a little less "bad" than before. I'd give it a bit more time though.

The slip down onto the M27 eastbound is still ridiculous: two lanes off the roundabout go into one before joining the uphill motorway, lots of lorries from the docks & industrial estate... fun and games.
November 2006

Peter sees the bigger picture:

The reason that this is a bad junction is that Portsmouth city had the sense to fight for the budget for a 'proper' junction [for the M275] as they realised this would make their port more attractive (Southampton no longer has cross channel ferries partly as a result).

Southampton still has a huge container and vehicle terminal, and this junction should attract funding as this is the route for all port traffic, which is set to grow.
July 2006

Jim Champion finds his days cursed by this junction:

This junction makes my morning journey very frustrating. I want to travel up the M271, turning left at this bad junction to travel west on the M27. The M271 is two lanes, both of which become blocked with traffic (cars, lorries leaving the docks and the Nursling Industrial Estate) that wants to turn right to travel east on the M27 and are held up by the roundabout traffic lights and congestion eastbound on the M27. The usual situation is that we sit there in a queue knowing that we would save 5-10 minutes by driving along the hard shoulder to the roundabout (where another lane appears for those turning left onto the M27). On occasions we take an alternative route to junction 1 of the M27 (through Totton on A and B roads) because it takes less time than waiting on the "M"271.

Another amusing why-is-the-M271-a-motorway? story... almost every day I see cyclists riding north along the hard shoulder of the M271 between the Redbridge Roundabout and the Nursling Junction, probably because it's the quickest/shortest route. I've seen the cyclists stopped by the police, but they're still back there the next day.
June 2005

Steve points the finger of blame:

The problem with this junction is the Highways Agency and their incompetence. Firstly white hatching has been painted onto the M27 eastbound entry slip on leaving the roundabout, narrowing two lanes to one-and-a-half before widening again after the bend. Secondly, the traffic lights where the M271 northbound meets the roundabout aren't required as there are very few vehicles heading from the M27 (east of the junction) northbound up the M271. Even in rush hour there are only a handful of vehicles travelling in this direction. Off peak the lights often turn red for traffic heading out of Southampton, in order to let no cars pass through. Maybe Southampton City Council gave them the idea!

See all 7 comments about this junction »
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Old May 19th, 2010, 04:27 AM   #1113
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The M271 spits in the face of motorway orthodoxy. At least its Portmouth cousin makes a decent job of being of a good standard with a grade separated roundabout in a very urban area. The M271 can't even do it in the suburbs.
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Old May 20th, 2010, 01:29 AM   #1114
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I took a couple of photos on the M27 near Portsmouth a couple of weeks ago

Note the number plate of that Audi A5
image hosted on flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnas/...7623950942267/

image hosted on flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnas/...7623950942267/

image hosted on flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnas/...7623950942267/

image hosted on flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnas/...7623950942267/

image hosted on flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnas/...7623950942267/

image hosted on flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnas/...7623950942267/

image hosted on flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnas/...7623950942267/
image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnas/...7623950942267/
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Old May 20th, 2010, 02:16 AM   #1115
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As a former British citizen, i'm going to be blunt: the UK needs to build more motorways, screw the nimby's. It's a disgrace that there is no motorway link between Manchester and Sheffield or Newcastle and Edinburgh. It is a disgrace that London doesn't have an inner ring road. It is a disgrace that there is no south coast motorway. It is a disgrace that East Anglia has no motorway. It is a disgrace that people justify the fact that the UK lacks motorways by claiming that A roads do the job, when they do not (France, Germany and the Netherlands have high quality dual carriageways too). To my British friends: just build. It'll create jobs and you really need to have an integrated transport policy, which includes the car as well as good public transport. I lived in the West Midlands and I was one of the few who wanted the "Blue Route" (western orbital extension of the M42). I was so sick of the NIMBYism that I moved to a country that is the other extreme LOL.
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Old May 20th, 2010, 03:04 AM   #1116
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Originally Posted by Comfortably Numb View Post
As a former British citizen, i'm going to be blunt: the UK needs to build more motorways, screw the nimby's. It's a disgrace that there is no motorway link between Manchester and Sheffield or Newcastle and Edinburgh. It is a disgrace that London doesn't have an inner ring road. It is a disgrace that there is no south coast motorway. It is a disgrace that East Anglia has no motorway. It is a disgrace that people justify the fact that the UK lacks motorways by claiming that A roads do the job, when they do not (France, Germany and the Netherlands have high quality dual carriageways too). To my British friends: just build. It'll create jobs and you really need to have an integrated transport policy, which includes the car as well as good public transport. I lived in the West Midlands and I was one of the few who wanted the "Blue Route" (western orbital extension of the M42). I was so sick of the NIMBYism that I moved to a country that is the other extreme LOL.
Sshhh you're not allowed to have such opinions in 21st century Britain....they'll heckle you as a climate change denier lol ...
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Old May 20th, 2010, 03:18 AM   #1117
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Sshhh you're not allowed to have such opinions in 21st century Britain....they'll heckle you as a climate change denier lol ...
Dude, I held these opinions in 20th century Britain; when I lived there. I tell you what's worse for the environment than building a motorway: often NOT building one and having clogged up roads as a result, stewing in exhaust fumes from cars doing the whole "stop-start" thing.
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Old May 20th, 2010, 03:20 AM   #1118
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Harsh opinion here but... true. South East England is in a desperate need for a new East-West motorway... or at least some decent upgrades (= removals of roundabouts) to the existing 2+2 A roads.
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Old May 20th, 2010, 04:56 AM   #1119
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Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Harsh opinion here but... true. South East England is in a desperate need for a new East-West motorway... or at least some decent upgrades (= removals of roundabouts) to the existing 2+2 A roads.
Didn't mean to sound harsh. On the flipside, the UK's motorways are of a very high standard IMO. The lanes are nice and wide, you have plenty of time to merge, the signage is clear and British drivers are among the best and safest in the world.

....I just wish there were more of them (motorways).
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Old May 20th, 2010, 05:29 AM   #1120
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Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
I took a couple of photos on the M27 near Portsmouth a couple of weeks ago

Note the number plate of that Audi A5
image hosted on flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnas/...7623950942267/
I was impressed that I managed to see a '10' plate car on March 1st at 9:30. Has to be the quickest I have ever seen a new registration car. I do find it a bit sad that some people go to a great effort to have as 'new' a car as possible.
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