daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old August 15th, 2010, 06:21 PM   #1381
PortoNuts
Registered User
 
PortoNuts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Porto
Posts: 24,094
Likes (Received): 7512

Quote:
Originally Posted by Comfortably Numb View Post
Britain's population is predicted to exceed 70 million by 2030. The reality is that new motorways are definitely going to be needed in the fairly near future, to cope with the rising population. Resistance to new motorway building is just going to cause a big, big problem later on, when the already overburdened roads become even more congested, causing more pollution and putting trade and commerce at risk.

The "no money" excuse is getting old. The money *could* be made available if the will to invest in the future was there in the first place and if people weren't so brainwashed into believing that bridging a few gaps and building no more than 5 major motorways would turn British cities into Los Angeles. Besides, major road (and rail) projects create sustainable jobs and would help in the long-term to keep Britain competitive.

Doing nothing would be far more disastrous for the long run than building 4-5 new major motorways, plugging a few gaps and widening some of the more congested roads, replacing roundabout type junctions with free-flow interchanges.

It's a truth that not many people like to hear. What any successful country needs is a good mass transit and road infrastructure.
Subscribe it entirely, good infrastructure is essential for a country's success. The crisis and lack of money has been used as an excuse for too long. The private sector must be willing to invest in State projects if given good rewards.

In this case it's a pity Britain is a net giver within the European Union. Otherwise the story would be very different in terms of motorway building.
__________________
Got one head for money and one head for sin..
PortoNuts no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old August 15th, 2010, 08:18 PM   #1382
Comfortably Numb
Goddess of Winter
 
Comfortably Numb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 2,521
Likes (Received): 309

Quote:
Originally Posted by PortoNuts View Post
Subscribe it entirely, good infrastructure is essential for a country's success. The crisis and lack of money has been used as an excuse for too long. The private sector must be willing to invest in State projects if given good rewards.

In this case it's a pity Britain is a net giver within the European Union. Otherwise the story would be very different in terms of motorway building.
Britain seems to spend a disproportionate amount of money on its military, but has failed to use taxpayers' money to invest in transport. While it may be just about managing with the transport infrastructure it has now, it will be a major problem in 2-3 decades time when the population increases significantly. Doing nothing will eventually result in gridlock and loss of trade and an inability to compete with other industrialised nations.

Like I said, we're not even talking about destroying the British countryside to build hundreds of new roads. The impact on the countrywide will probably be minimal, especially if thought is given to landscaping. If anything, building new motorways will take a lot of traffic OUT of towns and villages that are congested and traffic clogged, so most traffic will be just local traffic.

Unfortunately, road building is a necessity. You cannot rely on the fact that people will be priced off the road to use substandard public transport. The primary mode of freight transportation is still roads, even though rail is also used. I think that if Britain wants a model of a good combined road and public transport infrastructure that actually works in a similarly densely populated country, it should look no further than the Netherlands. The Dutch seem to have really struck the right kind of balance, IMO.
Comfortably Numb no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 15th, 2010, 08:24 PM   #1383
Comfortably Numb
Goddess of Winter
 
Comfortably Numb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 2,521
Likes (Received): 309

Quote:
Originally Posted by poshbakerloo View Post
Its true they are needed, but I never see it happening...

I think in about 40 years time there will be a big problem as nothing will have progressed much, its fine right now but it won't be soon.
The problem is that people are brainwashed into thinking that motorways are somehow evil and that they destroy the environment. Some are so stubborn that they'd rather deal with hours of traffic on a tiny, inadequate road than have a motorway built to alleviate the problem. Vehicles generate far more pollution stuck in hours of traffic than they do on a motorway.
Comfortably Numb no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 15th, 2010, 08:26 PM   #1384
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,612
Likes (Received): 19400

Yes, many reports have addressed the issue of the Randstad losing out on international competition with other metropolitan areas because of its near-constant congestion. Luckily, they've started this new road construction scheme, compromising over 30 road-widening projects.

The Dutch have implemented three new sets of legislation recently;
* the crisis- and recovery act
* the urgent widening act
* the national cooperation programme air quality (NSL)

Right now, the government takes action to improve air quality. They have compiled a list of projects that will impact air quality, and balanced them to a series of measures to improve air quality. Overall, the balance is positive.

Right now, individual projects do not need to have a 1,000 page air quality survey anymore, as long as they are admitted in the NSL. This means the anti-car brigade lost all grounds to delay road projects, which has accelerated highway construction by several years.

Before 2008, the average procedure time was 11 years, now they've shortened it to 3 - 4 years. Hundreds of kilometers of motorway will be widened.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 15th, 2010, 09:12 PM   #1385
Comfortably Numb
Goddess of Winter
 
Comfortably Numb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 2,521
Likes (Received): 309

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Yes, many reports have addressed the issue of the Randstad losing out on international competition with other metropolitan areas because of its near-constant congestion. Luckily, they've started this new road construction scheme, compromising over 30 road-widening projects.

The Dutch have implemented three new sets of legislation recently;
* the crisis- and recovery act
* the urgent widening act
* the national cooperation programme air quality (NSL)

Right now, the government takes action to improve air quality. They have compiled a list of projects that will impact air quality, and balanced them to a series of measures to improve air quality. Overall, the balance is positive.

Right now, individual projects do not need to have a 1,000 page air quality survey anymore, as long as they are admitted in the NSL. This means the anti-car brigade lost all grounds to delay road projects, which has accelerated highway construction by several years.

Before 2008, the average procedure time was 11 years, now they've shortened it to 3 - 4 years. Hundreds of kilometers of motorway will be widened.
Case and point, the Dutch have the right idea. Sooner or later, it's going to be a massive problem for British towns and cities. They (or rather we, since I am British myself) can go on doing nothing, or they can act now and make the investment, even if the anti-road lobbyists scream to high heaven. I have always felt that the Netherlands really got it right...a balance of great public transport, an excellent and extensive motorway network, coupled with being favourable for walking or cycling.

As for the environment, instead of just being anti-road for the sake of it, why not put those lobbying efforts into building greener cars and moving away from fossil fuels? Cars are here to stay, but eventually, car manufacturers could evolve to build cars that are almost 100% green.

I honestly feel that Britain will wake up one day. It wasn't too long ago that most people opposed any form of skyscraper construction in London, yet now London has a rapidly growing skyline (2 of them actually) and some beautiful skyscrapers to boot. In other words, people's opinions can change, or it'll just get to the point where the anti-road lobby won't matter as much as it does now and Britain will undergo a road building renaissance, much like the one that took place in the 60's, 70's and 80's (hopefully coupled with a serious investment in HSR).
Comfortably Numb no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 15th, 2010, 11:32 PM   #1386
PortoNuts
Registered User
 
PortoNuts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Porto
Posts: 24,094
Likes (Received): 7512

Quote:
Originally Posted by Comfortably Numb View Post
I honestly feel that Britain will wake up one day. It wasn't too long ago that most people opposed any form of skyscraper construction in London, yet now London has a rapidly growing skyline (2 of them actually) and some beautiful skyscrapers to boot. In other words, people's opinions can change, or it'll just get to the point where the anti-road lobby won't matter as much as it does now and Britain will undergo a road building renaissance, much like the one that took place in the 60's, 70's and 80's (hopefully coupled with a serious investment in HSR).
Spot on here! It's just a matter of someone giving the first kick and break all the backward preconceived ideas.
__________________
Got one head for money and one head for sin..
PortoNuts no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 15th, 2010, 11:45 PM   #1387
geogregor
Registered User
 
geogregor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: London
Posts: 15,528
Likes (Received): 19203

Quote:
Originally Posted by Comfortably Numb View Post
I honestly feel that Britain will wake up one day. It wasn't too long ago that most people opposed any form of skyscraper construction in London, yet now London has a rapidly growing skyline (2 of them actually) and some beautiful skyscrapers to boot. In other words, people's opinions can change, or it'll just get to the point where the anti-road lobby won't matter as much as it does now and Britain will undergo a road building renaissance, much like the one that took place in the 60's, 70's and 80's (hopefully coupled with a serious investment in HSR).
I'm skeptical about possible "awakening". Even if society will become less hostile to road building or improvement you have new generation of brain washed politicians. Tell me name of even one British politician who would propose some investment in road infrastructure. Look what Tories are saying, check opinions of leading contenders to become Labour leader. Not even mentioning LibDems. They hate cars with passion. They would happily force all nation on bicycles.
They just don't see roads as investment. For them it is something what should just disappear from the face of planet (and at least Britain). And goods will just fly itself to its destinations
I just don't understand why British elite (politicians, journalists etc) don't see this mindset as a problem. In the meantime continental Europe just keep maintaining investment in roads.
geogregor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 15th, 2010, 11:52 PM   #1388
Comfortably Numb
Goddess of Winter
 
Comfortably Numb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 2,521
Likes (Received): 309

Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
I'm skeptical about possible "awakening". Even if society will become less hostile to road building or improvement you have new generation of brain washed politicians. Tell me name of even one British politician who would propose some investment in road infrastructure. Look what Tories are saying, check opinions of leading contenders to become Labour leader. Not even mentioning LibDems. They hate cars with passion. They would happily force all nation on bicycles.
They just don't see roads as investment. For them it is something what should just disappear from the face of planet (and at least Britain). And goods will just fly itself to its destinations
I just don't understand why British elite (politicians, journalists etc) don't see this mindset as a problem. In the meantime continental Europe just keep maintaining investment in roads.
I respectfully disagree

The awakening *will* happen, simply because it has to. To use the example of London and skyscrapers again, London's skyline only started to grow when it absolutely needed to, i.e. for economic reasons. Now London has many skyscrapers popping up, even with a Tory mayor and a Tory government. The same phenomenon will occur when Britain in 2030 (population 70+ million) becomes totally gridlocked, resulting in serious economic and social consequences. At that point, I'm sure that not even the most self-serving, anti-road politician is going to continue to resist what quite simply HAS to be done, i.e. a huge upgrade of Britain's motorway network. Britain is ticking over (just about) at the moment, but at some point, it's going to become a catastrophic problem.
Comfortably Numb no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 16th, 2010, 01:58 AM   #1389
geogregor
Registered User
 
geogregor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: London
Posts: 15,528
Likes (Received): 19203

Quote:
Originally Posted by Comfortably Numb View Post
I respectfully disagree
No problem

Quote:
The same phenomenon will occur when Britain in 2030 (population 70+ million) becomes totally gridlocked, resulting in serious economic and social consequences. At that point, I'm sure that not even the most self-serving, anti-road politician is going to continue to resist what quite simply HAS to be done, i.e. a huge upgrade of Britain's motorway network. Britain is ticking over (just about) at the moment, but at some point, it's going to become a catastrophic problem.
When gridlock will seriously take hold of Britain I'm worry they (politicians as well as financial and cultural elite) will decide to price out poorer segments of population from roads. That way elites will enjoy smooth transport and their green and pleasant country houses and hunting lodges

Then they will introduce massive aviation tax so flying will become privilege again as it us to be. So poor will be forced to overcrowded and slow trains.

All in the name of ecology
Love this country.
geogregor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 16th, 2010, 02:17 AM   #1390
Pansori
planquadrat
 
Pansori's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: London - Vilnius
Posts: 9,973
Likes (Received): 6911

Quote:
Originally Posted by Comfortably Numb View Post
I respectfully disagree

The awakening *will* happen, simply because it has to. To use the example of London and skyscrapers again, London's skyline only started to grow when it absolutely needed to, i.e. for economic reasons. Now London has many skyscrapers popping up, even with a Tory mayor and a Tory government. The same phenomenon will occur when Britain in 2030 (population 70+ million) becomes totally gridlocked, resulting in serious economic and social consequences. At that point, I'm sure that not even the most self-serving, anti-road politician is going to continue to resist what quite simply HAS to be done, i.e. a huge upgrade of Britain's motorway network. Britain is ticking over (just about) at the moment, but at some point, it's going to become a catastrophic problem.
I think geogregor has a point. If there was a time to "awake" then it was at some point in the 60's or 70's before all those crappy suburbs expanded to an unimaginable scale in the South. Drive on A27 from Portsmouth to Brighton and/or beyond to see what I mean... without any disrespect it does look like a 3rd world situation. It's unacceptable today, not in 2030. It is virtually underivable and falls below any standards and understanding of road transportation anywhere in the developed (or even the "up and coming" developing) world. I have never seen a worse situation with roads than in the SE England in my life and by now I have done some traveling around Europe and Asia. The rest of the SE doesn't look much better either.

So if by now noone realised what a bad situation there is I can't imagine everyone all of a sudden changing their minds and realising that they need new roads in 2030. They needed it desperately back in the 1970's and now it's too late. Way too late and there isn't much to be done unless you want to demolish thousands of buildings, face protests of colossal scale and face all sorts of other difficulties knowing that UK isn't exactly a road-friendly country.

What I DON'T understand is wtf was happening with those people in the 1950's when all major motorways were on the table? Why didn't they build it all back then and just stopped midways? Right now it's only hope that we can believe in.

Last edited by Pansori; August 16th, 2010 at 02:24 AM.
Pansori no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 16th, 2010, 05:14 AM   #1391
PortoNuts
Registered User
 
PortoNuts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Porto
Posts: 24,094
Likes (Received): 7512

The south coastal motorway is definitely the most needed.
__________________
Got one head for money and one head for sin..
PortoNuts no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 16th, 2010, 11:54 AM   #1392
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,612
Likes (Received): 19400

This "awakening" happened in the last few years in the Netherlands. In the 1990's politicians were solidly anti-road. However, they had to acknowledge the problem began to spun out of control and something had to be done.

However, lower governments, like provinces and municipalities, still have only one mindsetting; downgrading roads. For every single road of an increased speed limit you have 50 roads that are downgraded.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 16th, 2010, 01:03 PM   #1393
CairnsTony
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Cairns, Qld.
Posts: 242
Likes (Received): 24

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
This "awakening" happened in the last few years in the Netherlands. In the 1990's politicians were solidly anti-road. However, they had to acknowledge the problem began to spun out of control and something had to be done.

However, lower governments, like provinces and municipalities, still have only one mindsetting; downgrading roads. For every single road of an increased speed limit you have 50 roads that are downgraded.
Having dealt directly with minor politicians in both the UK and Australia, they do not strike me as people who are capable of thinking outside the box, only on how to get re-elected.

Their egos are too massive for them to ever seriously entertain the idea that they are ever wrong, so it will take one or two brave 'mavericks' to set in motion a paradigm shift that no self-respecting bandwagoneering politican would not want to be a part of. Even the polit-speak garbage of their electoral speeches are identikit; liberally sprinkled with 'in' words such as 'sustainable' (what does that actually mean?) and incentivise' (which they pinched from business-speak).

At least in Scotland devolution has had the effect of enabling the Scots to take a more common-sense approach to transport; both road and rail. There's a lesson to be learned there.
CairnsTony no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 16th, 2010, 08:47 PM   #1394
PortoNuts
Registered User
 
PortoNuts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Porto
Posts: 24,094
Likes (Received): 7512

Quote:
Originally Posted by CairnsTony View Post
Having dealt directly with minor politicians in both the UK and Australia, they do not strike me as people who are capable of thinking outside the box, only on how to get re-elected.
That, unfortunately, is far too common in too many countries. They all make sure they waste money in useless things just to show off and put the real long lasting projects in the shelf.
__________________
Got one head for money and one head for sin..
PortoNuts no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 17th, 2010, 01:02 AM   #1395
DanielFigFoz
Registered User
 
DanielFigFoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: No fixed abode
Posts: 4,431
Likes (Received): 894

Quote:
Originally Posted by Comfortably Numb View Post
I respectfully disagree

The awakening *will* happen, simply because it has to. To use the example of London and skyscrapers again, London's skyline only started to grow when it absolutely needed to, i.e. for economic reasons. Now London has many skyscrapers popping up, even with a Tory mayor and a Tory government. The same phenomenon will occur when Britain in 2030 (population 70+ million) becomes totally gridlocked, resulting in serious economic and social consequences. At that point, I'm sure that not even the most self-serving, anti-road politician is going to continue to resist what quite simply HAS to be done, i.e. a huge upgrade of Britain's motorway network. Britain is ticking over (just about) at the moment, but at some point, it's going to become a catastrophic problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
No problem



When gridlock will seriously take hold of Britain I'm worry they (politicians as well as financial and cultural elite) will decide to price out poorer segments of population from roads. That way elites will enjoy smooth transport and their green and pleasant country houses and hunting lodges

Then they will introduce massive aviation tax so flying will become privilege again as it us to be. So poor will be forced to overcrowded and slow trains.

All in the name of ecology
Love this country.
I don't fully agree with either of you, although I do understand the arguments of both.

I can't see flying becoming a privilege of the higher classes-the supreme leaders of the country are the indirectly the people, as the tabloids have to demonstrate opinions that will make people happy; they cannot be pro-extra-aviation tax, but then again people believe anything they read.

What I feel will happen, is that there will be motorway expansionism, however, not in some sort of "awaking", I feel that it will be a gradual process of expansion and enlargement, out of necessity, that will not really be noticed by the general public, solely by people that are interested in infrastructure, i.e us. Most people wouldn't care about a Cornwall-Kent motorway, or a motorway from London to Aberdeen, nor about a train line from John O'Groats to Land's End, people use infrasturcture without knowing, nor caring about it's significance or how it's made their journey 4x better, or how it's provided them with transport to jobs etc. Only when these things directly affect them they notice and once it's done they don't care. Basically people take things for granted.

Anyway, probably most voters in Norwich want a motorway there, but most voters elsewhere don't really care. So overall, all these localised lacks of infrastructure make no infulence on the national government where funding comes from.

Then again, I may well be talking crap.
DanielFigFoz no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 17th, 2010, 02:19 AM   #1396
geogregor
Registered User
 
geogregor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: London
Posts: 15,528
Likes (Received): 19203

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielFigFoz View Post
I can't see flying becoming a privilege of the higher classes-the supreme leaders of the country are the indirectly the people, as the tabloids have to demonstrate opinions that will make people happy; they cannot be pro-extra-aviation tax, but then again people believe anything they read.
Media create perception of the reality. British public is bombarded with worrying news about global warming and then in the same sentence how they have to sacrifice for the good of their children. Abandon cars, cycle instead, tax cars, cars are killing planet etc.
I can see road pricing going ahead and it is going to be regressive tax. It will cause poor to travel less and rich won't give a shit about it.

Quote:
Most people wouldn't care about a Cornwall-Kent motorway, or a motorway from London to Aberdeen, nor about a train line from John O'Groats to Land's End, people use infrasturcture without knowing, nor caring about it's significance or how it's made their journey 4x better, or how it's provided them with transport to jobs etc. Only when these things directly affect them they notice and once it's done they don't care. Basically people take things for granted.
Most people don't care about particular projects, they are silent majority. But you always find some local NIMBYs vocal enough to get media attention. Politicians are afraid of them, especially when they connect with green activists. It is always easier to be passionate against something which is going to destroy for example countryside, neighborhood or even planet, rather than be passionate about improving connections, easing congestion and allowing for future economic growth. It doesn't sound dramatic enough.

Quote:
Anyway, probably most voters in Norwich want a motorway there, but most voters elsewhere don't really care. So overall, all these localised lacks of infrastructure make no infulence on the national government where funding comes from.
I think most voters in Norwich don't care or, even worse, are brainwashed with all this anti road crap. Either way I can't see them staging demonstration demanding motorway. But if such motorway is proposed I can see opponents staging protest against it.

I'm glad Poland didn't go that way yet. There road building is still a vote winner and opponents of it are seen as lunatics
Politicians are actually blamed for too slow road construction. Even if we have over 1000km of motorways and HQDC under construction and more on the way.
But big part of it are road friendly media. You don't have scary stories about dying planet every day, but you do get stories of people suffering because insufficient road and other transport infrastructure.
geogregor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 17th, 2010, 10:56 AM   #1397
Harry
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 351
Likes (Received): 0

A little advice would be appreciated if anyone can help. I have a 450 mile drive to the west of Scotland this weekend from N Hampshire to visit family. The two routes I use most often are:
  • M3-M25-M40-M42-M6-M74 etc.; and
  • M3-M25-M1-M18-A1(M)-A66-M6-M74 etc.
I prefer the latter route usually, mainly because it avoids the southern section of the M6. But does anyone know of any major road works taking place on either route? The main works I can think of is the widening of the M1 through the East Midlands, but I am not sure whether this will have been completed by now.

Thanks in advance.
Harry no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 17th, 2010, 11:08 AM   #1398
strandeed
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Newcastle Upon Tyne
Posts: 654
Likes (Received): 108

there is a good section (about 10 miles) of the A1 south of Scotch Corner being rebuilt/widened at the moment with 50mph limits and average speed cameras watching the whole way.

Just drove up yesterday.
strandeed no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 17th, 2010, 12:30 PM   #1399
sotonsi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,562

also with the M1 route you have roadworks on the M25 from j18 to j21.

going via the M1 seems quite a long way around (Edinburgh is as far west as Liverpool - it makes little sense to go as far East as Leicester and Doncaster) - it would be cheaper, given the extra fuel needed, to use the M6 Toll to avoid the southern bit of the M6.

also, depending how far along the M3 you are, it might be better to look at picking up the A34 to get to the M40 - even with Camberley, going via Reading is probably quicker than going via Heathrow, even though the roads are worse.
sotonsi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 17th, 2010, 12:48 PM   #1400
Harry
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 351
Likes (Received): 0

Thanks chaps. I will probably stick to the first route in that case.

On the route comparison point, funnily enough both routes are very similar in terms of distance. According to Google (and borne out by my own experience), Route 1 is 449 miles (7 hrs 57 mins); and Route 2 is 455 miles (8 hrs 21 mins). I agree that the latter route certainly sounds a lot less direct, but the reality is different.

The Reading route does not quite work for me. To be honest, if I was going to head over to the M4, I would be just as likely to carry on past Newbury to Swindon and then up to the M5 via the A417/A419. My father in law uses this route quite regularly. Again, it's almost the same distance at 453 miles that way.
Harry no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
highways, motorway, united kingdom

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium