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Old August 28th, 2010, 05:02 AM   #1461
Pansori
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I take it you've never been to an actual "third world country" then?
He's got a point about A27.
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Old August 28th, 2010, 12:31 PM   #1462
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Not only A27 but maaaaaaaany roads in England
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Old August 28th, 2010, 12:32 PM   #1463
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I take it you've never been to an actual "third world country" then?
do you agree that the situation on A27 is unacceptable for a country like UK ?
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Old August 28th, 2010, 02:16 PM   #1464
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Chichester needs re-bypassing, and Worthing and Arundel need bypassing, but that's it really.
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Old August 28th, 2010, 08:02 PM   #1465
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do you agree that the situation on A27 is unacceptable for a country like UK ?
Of course it is, but I'm not about to call it "third world". Britain's road network also varies by region. While the south coast may be poorly served, the northwest has an excellent motorway / major trunk road network.
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Old August 28th, 2010, 08:08 PM   #1466
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Chichester needs re-bypassing, and Worthing and Arundel need bypassing, but that's it really.
Disagree...

ALL of the roundabouts need to be got rid of and replaced with proper grade separated junctions junctions for the entire stretch. The road doesn't necessarily need to be brought up to full motorway standards, but it should be built to the same quality as the A14 or A34.
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Old August 28th, 2010, 09:20 PM   #1467
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Almost all the roundabouts are bypassed with my three bypasses. You have the 2 A29 ones and that's it - I guess you can add grade-separate them to the list.

The A34 - where do you mean? - I guess just the M3-M40 bit, which has roundabouts at the ends, a crappy section near Oxford and a lot of not great junctions. The A14 has three at grade roundabouts, and several right turns. I feel that just those three bypasses would make the A27 from Portsmouth - Lewes at least as good as those routes, and with grade-separation of the A29 junctions, better.

You actually don't disagree at all, but then you live 3000 miles from the A27, so it's no surprise you just knee-jerk generalisation rather than realise I proposed bypassing all the pinch points.

Interestingly, I've just read a study on the Chichester bypass - very little traffic travels the length of it - it's in effect a local distributor - I knew that bit of my scheme was less urgent than the other two, but I didn't realise how much less.

It's worth noting that the rail services along the (central) south coast are turn up-and-go and ought to be the envy of most other 1st world countries.
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Old August 29th, 2010, 05:58 AM   #1468
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The A34 - where do you mean? - I guess just the M3-M40 bit, which has roundabouts at the ends, a crappy section near Oxford and a lot of not great junctions. The A14 has three at grade roundabouts, and several right turns. I feel that just those three bypasses would make the A27 from Portsmouth - Lewes at least as good as those routes, and with grade-separation of the A29 junctions, better.
I think the A34 is as close as it could get to being a motorway. There are several villages that can only be accessed easily from it meaning it can't be entirely a motorway. However doesn't have anything to impede the main road traffic for most of it and I once managed to do the 30 miles from Winchester to the M4 in under 20 minutes.
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Old August 29th, 2010, 12:32 PM   #1469
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You've forgotten the one or two right turns. Also in terms of cross-section and geometry of the mainline and junctions, it is not amazing. It's about the same as the A1 from Doncaster - Peterborough, a reasonably decent road, but it would make a crappy motorway compared with 95% of the network. Both require no stopping, however there's some really tight sliproads, some places with less good forward visibility, narrow lanes in places and so on.

If you want an A road that is as close as you can get to being motorway - try the various non-motorway special roads (A55 around Conwy, some roads in Scotland) - they have the legal stuff, but not the blue signs. In terms of high standards, then you have the A282, the A27 at Portsmouth, the A2 from somewhere near London to the M2. You also have, that are better than the A34 things like the A14 from the A1(M) to M11 and from the M11 to Felixstowe. Also the bits of A1 they are upgrading to motorway in Yorkshire are higher standard.

The A34 is a good road, but "as close as it could get to being a motorway" - no way!

Last edited by sotonsi; August 29th, 2010 at 12:40 PM.
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Old August 30th, 2010, 03:37 PM   #1470
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Talking about the A27, yes it is in need of a few upgrades here and there, but in what way can you compare it to a cross-country route like the M40-M3 section of the A34 or the A14? It isn't a major route when you consider freight transport, anything coming in from Portsmouth or Southampton will take the A3(M) and A3 or M3, A34, etc. The primary use of the A27 I would imagine is the same as the A38 Devon Expressway or A30 into Cornwall and that is to cater for the high volumes of tourists during the summer months. At any other time of the year those two examples function perfectly. As for the A27, everyone knows it should be motorway past Havant, but for petty government policies it's been designated as such. Further on from there it simply serves its purpose of linking the large towns on the south coast. It's only really important section has been dealt with by the M27, the rest of it justifies it's current state in my opinion. Naturally a few bypasses here and there would go amiss, but I'd rather see taxpayers money going into schemes that benefit real centres of population, like the motorway upgrade of the A1, and improvements to the A14.
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Old August 30th, 2010, 06:08 PM   #1471
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Sorry to double post, I just thought I'd comment on the A34 standard, having used it many times for various journeys over the years.

It's a great road, incredibly useful and judging by the amount of lorries on it, one of the key routes in the country that isn't of motorway standard, along with (as discussed) the A14, as well as the A1, A50 and A66.

The section around Botley in Oxford isn't great, though that part is one of the oldest sections of D2 on the route and the side streets coming off it definately wasn't the greatest of ideas.

However compare that to the recent section over the M4 and down to Newbury, it's D4 for a good while and over engineered to an extent, which is a good thing, having additional capacity for the future.

The roundabouts at either end are appalling though, and the HA are upgrading M40 J9 with an additional lane on the roundabout from M40S round to the A34 exit but it clearly isn't enough. Both ideally need to be freeflow, at the very least M40S>A34 and A34>M3S but whether that will ever happen is another thing entirely...

The rest of the route though is pretty well done, considering it's been built in lots of stages over a fairly long period of time. By and large it does its job and with the exception of Peartree up to M40 J9 largely remains congestion free from my experience on it.
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Old August 30th, 2010, 06:59 PM   #1472
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However compare that to the recent section over the M4 and down to Newbury, it's D4 for a good while and over engineered to an extent, which is a good thing, having additional capacity for the future.
It's less than a mile, so not really that long. It's also the newest bit. If only the rest of the route had the same high quality slip road alignments, consideration for weaving and enough lanes to deal with the traffic, including truck traffic (thinking Peartree-M40 there)

Botley/North Hinksley is 1930s IIRC, though it did get upgraded. The lanes are narrower there as they had to squeeze in two parallel roads to serve the houses.
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Old August 30th, 2010, 07:57 PM   #1473
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Yeah they want to upgrade the section around Oxford perhaps, either offline or online, they need to close the accesses, right turns, etc and yes at the very least an additional lane from Peartree to the M40.
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Old August 31st, 2010, 06:03 PM   #1474
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My 2 year experience in London was horrible, whenever i went to france it was a completely different country, excellent food excellent roads. I would prefer to pay 20 euros to go from Calais to Paris at least their motorways are empty with top notch quality. On the other hands british one are always jammed , there is concrete pavement of some sections and many key routes are missing, i will say it agian and again get rid of roundabouts at busy junctions!!!!!!!!! who the heck had the idea to build a roundabout juction between A1M and M25 ??? i can give many examples how bad the british roads are compared to the europeans...
Firstly it isn't true to say that motorways in the whole of the UK are 'always jammed', the M25 at peak hour is not typical just as the perepherique is not typical of traffic levels on French roads. Likewise you can't say that Britain is bad compared to 'the Europeans', Europe is a big place containing dozens of countries with many varying examples of road quality and traffic levels, some with much better networks than the uk, others not.

Finally I would say that if you couldn't find good food in London in two years then you can't have been trying very hard!

But yes, a programme of junction improvements, upgrades and the insertion of some missing links in the network would be very welcome.
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Old August 31st, 2010, 06:20 PM   #1475
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And I'll just add to that previous post about the French autoroutes supposedly being 'so good' if you have indeed travelled down the A26 to Paris you will have noticed the substandard curves in the road clearly not designed for speeds of upto 120kph, and also the intermittent hard shoulder which even when it does exist, is nowhere near wide enough for a broken down lorry. Now compare that with the M25, which when it does loose it's hard shoulder, gives large, clear warnings of it and for how long it isn't there, whilst when it does return, it is always at full width and capable of providing (relatively) safe refuge for stationary vehicles.

British motorways have some of the best design standards in the world, hence why they cost so much to build. Whilst there's plenty of holes in it, we should be very proud of the good, safe network that we do currently have.
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Old August 31st, 2010, 07:29 PM   #1476
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Indeed, I think UK roads compare well to much of the developed world. Seems some people desperately want to believe the UK sucks at things more than it actually does, for some weird reason.
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Old August 31st, 2010, 09:14 PM   #1477
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And I'll just add to that previous post about the French autoroutes supposedly being 'so good' if you have indeed travelled down the A26 to Paris you will have noticed the substandard curves in the road clearly not designed for speeds of upto 120kph, and also the intermittent hard shoulder which even when it does exist, is nowhere near wide enough for a broken down lorry. Now compare that with the M25, which when it does loose it's hard shoulder, gives large, clear warnings of it and for how long it isn't there, whilst when it does return, it is always at full width and capable of providing (relatively) safe refuge for stationary vehicles.

British motorways have some of the best design standards in the world, hence why they cost so much to build. Whilst there's plenty of holes in it, we should be very proud of the good, safe network that we do currently have.
Still the asphalt in french autoroutes are far more superior compared to english motorways.
Curves not designed for 120 km... so what? i ve seen hairpins on Italian autostradas where you ahve to go like 80 km, THe section between Genova and Torino to be exact but its an exceptional scenic road.

Shoulder width, Continetal motorways have different design standards than english

I agree that the UK network is very well designed but for such a populated country you need far more dense network, hence check CBRD to see how many key routes are missing, we all know what happend in 60's and the cancellation of thousands of miles of motorway

You miss quantity, not quality although i disagree for the roundabout junctions that were built that time
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Old August 31st, 2010, 09:34 PM   #1478
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Firstly it isn't true to say that motorways in the whole of the UK are 'always jammed', the M25 at peak hour is not typical just as the perepherique is not typical of traffic levels on French roads. Likewise you can't say that Britain is bad compared to 'the Europeans', Europe is a big place containing dozens of countries with many varying examples of road quality and traffic levels, some with much better networks than the uk, others not.

Finally I would say that if you couldn't find good food in London in two years then you can't have been trying very hard!

But yes, a programme of junction improvements, upgrades and the insertion of some missing links in the network would be very welcome.
I am saying that the traffic levels in UK motorways are too high because they lack at quantity

Edit: Have you seen how a English motorway rest area is and how a french is ? food in london was alright

Last edited by Angelos; August 31st, 2010 at 09:42 PM.
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Old August 31st, 2010, 10:26 PM   #1479
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Edit: Have you seen how a English motorway rest area is and how a french is ? food in london was alright
I remember seeing a set of pics on flickr about good rest areas and bad rest areas on British motorways. That sums it up. Generalisations are very dangerous.
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Old August 31st, 2010, 11:07 PM   #1480
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I do not find any particular issue with British rest places, apart from one thing. There is not enough of them and if they are, are too massive for me. They lack, I do not know, kind of atmosphere. Car parks are usually fulled up, there is a bit too much rubbish and not enough benches around. I just can't relax there. For that reason, I really prefer peaceful rest areas by 'A' roads which consist of everything what is missing in those by motorways.

I like to stop in a simple lay-by hidden in wood where I can eat and drink my own food (I obey some feeding rules). They can be seen anywhere alongside European motorways but England's.
Fortunately, they can be found in more than reasonable number by dual carriageways' 'A' roads.
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