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Old September 29th, 2010, 01:33 AM   #1701
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Originally Posted by DanielFigFoz View Post
I've never even heard of that concept.

Anyway people overtake and undertake on the M25, pass from all angles and all over the place, and drive in any lane, so it would be pretty useless .
Some do yes, but often because a large section of car drivers don't use the left lane. British drivers are generally very well versed on lane discipline and motorway driving.

It's true though - the M25 should be 3+2 - look at the success of the rebuilt M1 from the M25 to Jct 10. We need to separate traffic feeding onto the M25 for 1 or 2 junctions from through-traffic.
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Old September 29th, 2010, 01:48 AM   #1702
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Some do yes, but often because a large section of car drivers don't use the left lane. British drivers are generally very well versed on lane discipline and motorway driving.

It's true though - the M25 should be 3+2 - look at the success of the rebuilt M1 from the M25 to Jct 10. We need to separate traffic feeding onto the M25 for 1 or 2 junctions from through-traffic.
British drivers are among the best in the world, IMO. I'll give the same accolade to German and Dutch drivers too. No wonder traffic fatalities are so low in those countries. People know how to drive and respect others.
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Old September 29th, 2010, 03:18 AM   #1703
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What always strikes me about the M25 (even more than other Biritish motorways) is the complete lack of useful focal points on the signs. On an orbital road I would want to see towns that will be familiar to just about anyone on the road, like Birmingham, Cardiff, Southampon. Or even THE NORTH-WEST, THE WEST and THE SOUTHWEST if you please. But not towns for which I need a map, like Basingstoke and Reading.
Reading of course, being 200k (urban area perhaps 300k - it's a regional centre) and Basingstoke isn't that puny. And also not signed as onward places on the M25 (but as secondary destinations down slip). Awful examples (they are also among the biggest settlements signed on the M25 - London, Birmingham, Southampton and maybe some of the outer London suburbs are the only places that are bigger than Reading).

Birmingham and Southampton are signed from the road and are onward destinations as you approach the M40 and M3 junctions. Cardiff isn't signed at all in England - it's SOUTH WALES, or The WEST. It's also (slightly) smaller than Reading, and a lot further away - would suggest it's a lot less useful.

The problem with Orbital Roads is that they don't go anywhere much - so you sign the main roads you intersect and a few destinations near the route (so the main control destinations on the M25 are Dartford Crossing, Gatwick Airport, Heathrow Airport and Watford. But you do get other destinations on top of that as well - normally the next junctions destination, or something.

But in England, we navigate more by road numbers than far off destinations. Sure, you get the regional destinations, but it seems like the main thing they care about on the M25 is three motorways/major roads you'd intersect in that direction.
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Indeed. Many of the roundabout interchanges need to be demolished! - free flowing stacked interchanges are required (jct 23, 28, 29 etc).
We ought to get the guys that did the M50 in Ireland (though those were 2-level roundabouts they turned into tight free-flow junctions but J11 needs doing as well). Also could deal with the various other roundabout junctions where there's always jams.

Then again, the freeflow slips for one movement solution seems to be not bad.
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* picks up jaw from desk

You don't have truck overtaking bans during rush hour on a road like M25? That surprises me!
They can't use lane 3 on the three lane bits, and the law is fuzzy on other sections - is it just the outside lane, or is it lane 3 and further out. Of course, junctions with double lane drops don't help (looking at you M3 anti-cw, though the M4 isn't great either cw, but that triple lane drop works better, strangely). If the traffic on the D3 bits is bad enough that squeezing into lane 3 is a problem, it's likely that the average speed is 90km/h anyway. Wasn't much of a problem before the limiters became law - less speed differentials.

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Originally Posted by niterider View Post
It's true though - the M25 should be 3+2 - look at the success of the rebuilt M1 from the M25 to Jct 10. We need to separate traffic feeding onto the M25 for 1 or 2 junctions from through-traffic.
That's mostly D4, but with 3+2 because J7 and J8 are so close (they had a weaving lane for years). But yes, 3+2 is a minimum for quite a lot of the road (see my table above and look at the 2007 proposed widths required for the traffic). Parts ought to be 6 or 7 lanes wide each way (over two carriageways)
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Old September 29th, 2010, 09:13 PM   #1704
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Originally Posted by niterider View Post
Some do yes, but often because a large section of car drivers don't use the left lane. British drivers are generally very well versed on lane discipline and motorway driving.

It's true though - the M25 should be 3+2 - look at the success of the rebuilt M1 from the M25 to Jct 10. We need to separate traffic feeding onto the M25 for 1 or 2 junctions from through-traffic.
Yes, the undertaking is only on the M25
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Old September 29th, 2010, 09:15 PM   #1705
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We ought to get the guys that did the M50 in Ireland (though those were 2-level roundabouts they turned into tight free-flow junctions but J11 needs doing as well).
They recognised the problem and actually did something proactive. Only problem is the slip roads as you point out have been 'squeezed' into what used to be the grassed area at the edge of the roundabout, so they twist and sometimes have very dodgy gradients...fun though! I drive the M4 -> M50 southbound there sometimes - if you look on google map you will see its so tight I can only do about 20mph on it.
I'm thinking more like junction 16 on the M25 ideally, or junction 27 where space is constrained. Junctions in the Netherlands, similarly built-up and congested, put ours to shame imo.
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Old September 30th, 2010, 05:11 PM   #1706
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Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
What always strikes me about the M25 (even more than other Biritish motorways) is the complete lack of useful focal points on the signs. On an orbital road I would want to see towns that will be familiar to just about anyone on the road, like Birmingham, Cardiff, Southampon. Or even THE NORTH-WEST, THE WEST and THE SOUTHWEST if you please. But not towns for which I need a map, like Basingstoke and Reading.
I think the issue here (and I mean this politely, I promise) is that the signage was not really designed for you or other drivers from overseas. By virtue of its location and island geography, the UK does not get as much through traffic as some other European countries (other than in the summer months where, French, German and Dutch number plates are a much more common sight). Consequently, road signs are not really designed with foreign travellers in mind.

To the average British driver in the south east of England, Reading and Basingstoke - along with other mid size/large towns such as Oxford, Watford, Brighton, Swindon, Guildford etc - are well known and perfectly acceptable as reference points. Most UK drivers would not 'need a map' for Reading or Basingstoke. Internationally, I agree, most of them are less well known. However, I do agree with the general point that UK signage probably does need to recognise more long distance destinations, with major cities signed further in advance than they are at present.
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Old September 30th, 2010, 11:03 PM   #1707
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Apart from the number of people familiar with Basingstoke and Reading, there is one overriding argument to look at towns further away. That is that focal points in the somewhat longer distance (or focals like THE WEST) do a better job in showing the general direction of a road than a town 30 miles further afield does. From the M25, THE WEST gives a much clearer message than Reading.

Regarding the number of people that know Reading and Basingstoke, unless I misunderstand your post, you say that people from outside the South-East of the UK are already much less familiar with these places. And that is where you run into the perennial question for whose benefit roads are being signposted. That's not normally for people from within the region who already know how to find their way. You do it from people not familiar locally. That is not to say that you can't refer anymore to places in the UK not really known under continental drivers, but you have to find some middle ground there. Which I think is available by using larger focals (Southampton, Birmingham) or regions (THE WEST, THE MIDLANDS).
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Old September 30th, 2010, 11:06 PM   #1708
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I would say that everyone in the UK roughly know where Reading and Basinstoke are, like most people in the south know that Inverness is north of Glasgow and that Edinburgh is east of Glasgow.
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Old October 1st, 2010, 03:18 AM   #1709
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Apart from the number of people familiar with Basingstoke and Reading, there is one overriding argument to look at towns further away. That is that focal points in the somewhat longer distance (or focals like THE WEST) do a better job in showing the general direction of a road than a town 30 miles further afield does. From the M25, THE WEST gives a much clearer message than Reading.
The WEST, of course, _is_ signed from the M25 and all along the M4 in England, with the exception of the signs that sign SOUTH WALES.

In fact, on the M25 every sign with Reading also has The WEST, and every sign with Basingstoke also has Southampton.

As I have said, we in the UK use numbers more than destinations - should we change this and confuse 95% of drivers (and at great cost), to stop the 5% from abroad being confused? No.
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Old October 1st, 2010, 04:37 AM   #1710
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The WEST, of course, _is_ signed from the M25 and all along the M4 in England, with the exception of the signs that sign SOUTH WALES.

In fact, on the M25 every sign with Reading also has The WEST, and every sign with Basingstoke also has Southampton.

As I have said, we in the UK use numbers more than destinations - should we change this and confuse 95% of drivers (and at great cost), to stop the 5% from abroad being confused? No.
WTF is there to be confused about? If you're relying on signage for directions, you're missing out on the GPS (and map) revolution. I never use road signs to get myself anywhere....GPS all the way, baby.
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Old October 1st, 2010, 10:11 AM   #1711
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I never use road signs to get myself anywhere....GPS all the way, baby.
... which is plain stupidity. What if there are roadworks, and the road is closed and the sign says "follow Springfield", but you have no idea where that is because you never look at the signs?

GPS is for dumbasses too lazy to prepare their journey. How many times don't you read about people end up in the wrong city with the same name, in a ditch because they followed GPS-orders too closely, or other stupid things?

What if you're driving on a road with frontage roads, and GPS thinks you're driving on the frontage road, and says "turn right here"? You could easily take an exit you don't want to take. I've seen this numerous times on my GPS, thats why I never rely on it. GPS software is full of errors, one-way streets that are the other way around, new roads that aren't opened yet, or are opened, but not on GPS.
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Old October 1st, 2010, 12:00 PM   #1712
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... which is plain stupidity.
I'm with Chris on this. Personally, I take a (sort of) pride in my own mental sat-nav...the one in my head. Near to home, this extends to B roads and unclassified roads; further afield it's confined to larger roads. And for long distance travel, it's knowing the 4 or 5 routes that will get me from A to B without adding an unnecessarily large number of miles or hours/minutes to the journey. Maybe I'm a Luddite, but I'm happy without a sat-nav in the car telling me where to go. Atlases, Google Maps and what's in my head are all that I need.
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Old October 1st, 2010, 12:11 PM   #1713
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I'm with Chris on this. Personally, I take a (sort of) pride in my own mental sat-nav...the one in my head. Near to home, this extends to B roads and unclassified roads; further afield it's confined to larger roads. And for long distance travel, it's knowing the 4 or 5 routes that will get me from A to B without adding an unnecessarily large number of miles or hours/minutes to the journey. Maybe I'm a Luddite, but I'm happy without a sat-nav in the car telling me where to go. Atlases, Google Maps and what's in my head are all that I need.
Ditto, I can generally travel much of the UK and need a map only for the last few miles, and I'm aware of major trouble spots. I'm also keen to try routes off motorway to make driving a bit more of an adventure again if I have the time.
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Old October 1st, 2010, 02:14 PM   #1714
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
... which is plain stupidity. What if there are roadworks, and the road is closed and the sign says "follow Springfield", but you have no idea where that is because you never look at the signs?

GPS is for dumbasses too lazy to prepare their journey. How many times don't you read about people end up in the wrong city with the same name, in a ditch because they followed GPS-orders too closely, or other stupid things?

What if you're driving on a road with frontage roads, and GPS thinks you're driving on the frontage road, and says "turn right here"? You could easily take an exit you don't want to take. I've seen this numerous times on my GPS, thats why I never rely on it. GPS software is full of errors, one-way streets that are the other way around, new roads that aren't opened yet, or are opened, but not on GPS.
I can see how sat nav can help some people but I agree that it shouldn't be wholely relied on. I prefer to use maps and signs and work out routes on my own. I never really get lost (the last time I got a bit lost was when I missed a turning for the E40 in Belgium and ended up on a countrylane surrounded by cornfields but I found my way back in the end). Sometimes I like a bit of an adventure trying out new routes to get to places.


And seeing as we're on the subject of the M4:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11451350

Quote:
Government to scrap M4 bus lane

The controversial M4 bus lane is due to be scrapped at the end of the year.

Under the plans, all motorists will be able to use the 3.5 mile (5.6km) lane which operates on the London-bound carriageway from near Heathrow.

Transport Secretary Philip Hammond is expected to announce the move at next week's Conservative Party conference.

The lane will be suspended from 24 December for 18 months when it will be brought back into use for the Olympics, after which it will be scrapped.

The unpopular bus lane was introduced by former Transport Secretary John Prescott in 1999.

It became known as the "Blair lane" after the former prime minister used it to avoid heavy traffic.

In his speech to the Conservative Party, Mr Hammond is expected to say: "Nothing is more symbolic of Labour's war on the motorist than the M4 bus lane."

He is thought to reveal plans to suspend the lane from the end of December until the 2012 Olympics, and then scrap it permanently after the Games.

Mr Hammond will say that the lane will be temporarily used for the Olympics to help get people "speedily" to and from events.
Good news. I've never seen the point of it as rail is a much quicker way of getting into London from Heathrow and all the lane does is funnel three lanes' worth of traffic into two, especially bad when the elevated section in Brentford is already 2x2!

Last edited by tripleseis; October 1st, 2010 at 02:23 PM.
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Old October 1st, 2010, 02:45 PM   #1715
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WTF is there to be confused about? If you're relying on signage for directions, you're missing out on the GPS (and map) revolution. I never use road signs to get myself anywhere....GPS all the way, baby.
TBH, I'm in the 0.1% that needs neither most of the time in the UK. However signage is reassuring to my mental compass.

However, changing the signage paradigm of the UK would confuse UK drivers, who make up the vast majority of drivers on our roads.

Oh, and sat nav is just annoying - maps all the way!

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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
What if you're driving on a road with frontage roads, and GPS thinks you're driving on the frontage road, and says "turn right here"? You could easily take an exit you don't want to take. I've seen this numerous times on my GPS, thats why I never rely on it. GPS software is full of errors, one-way streets that are the other way around, new roads that aren't opened yet, or are opened, but not on GPS.
We had a Sat Nav in a hire car in California - we were starting our drive back from SF to LA, and despite my repeated saying "I know the route to the freeway - I have a map", my dumbass technology-crazy brother (who somehow got in the front) got out and turned on the sat nav straight away, entering our first stopping point on the coast (no idea how he did it in the time it took to go round the block - I didn't think he knew where we were going!). The "turn right" instruction at a 5-way junction (as we hit Market St from the NW) got the sat nav all confused when my mum, driving, followed the sat nav, rather than me shouting "Straight on, the right fork" from the back. After 30 seconds of shouting, we got dumbass in the front to turn the sat nav's sound off, and I could use the map until we got on the freeway (which was much harder as we were a couple of blocks away from the easy route we would have gone down, and there's one-way stuff galore), then it was the sat navs turn (which wasn't as fun as going there via the Central Valley - we had 200 miles of blissful silence between one "keep right" and the next.

I guess I'm a Luddite - I don't want unskilled and incompetent Sat Navs doing my job of navigating, and doing it badly and annoyingly. I know I'll never buy one.

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And seeing as we're on the subject of the M4:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11451350

Good news. I've never seen the point of it as rail is a much quicker way of getting into London from Heathrow and all the lane does is funnel three lanes' worth of traffic into two, especially bad when the elevated section in Brentford is already 2x2!
It moves the lane drop back to the junction before the elevated section - it makes logical sense. However it's supposedly causing bigger queues all the way back to the M25 from J3. What I think has happened, is that by shifting the queue a couple of miles back (while making the road flow better), it's merged with the Heathrow one.
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Old October 2nd, 2010, 11:25 AM   #1716
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In fact, on the M25 every sign with Reading also has The WEST, and every sign with Basingstoke also has Southampton
Not exactly the picture left by the photo series a few pages back.
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Old October 2nd, 2010, 02:50 PM   #1717
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I stand corrected, Basingstoke (M3) is used as a destination clockwise (it's Southampton (M3) the other way). It's still not a small place - about Oxford sized, though not as famous.

However, I could only find one sign with Reading on, and that had The WEST, which appeared on a lot more signs.
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Old October 3rd, 2010, 08:35 PM   #1718
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Originally Posted by tripleseis View Post

And seeing as we're on the subject of the M4:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11451350

Good news. I've never seen the point of it as rail is a much quicker way of getting into London from Heathrow and all the lane does is funnel three lanes' worth of traffic into two, especially bad when the elevated section in Brentford is already 2x2!
Hardly - the elevated section is still 2x2, and always going to be unless everything along it is bulldozed, so removing the bus lane will do NOTHING to increase throughput on this road. All this will do is moving the jam closer to London, while coach passengers suffer more delays. A negative-sum decision on the whole.
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Old October 3rd, 2010, 11:47 PM   #1719
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Hardly - the elevated section is still 2x2, and always going to be unless everything along it is bulldozed, so removing the bus lane will do NOTHING to increase throughput on this road. All this will do is moving the jam closer to London, while coach passengers suffer more delays. A negative-sum decision on the whole.
Rubbish, throughput is automatically doubled
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Old October 3rd, 2010, 11:52 PM   #1720
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M50 again

so pictures are from yellow points on a map (bridges) and I wanted to go on a red one but I forgotten how to get there so I was cycling through the Kempley and Dymock.. so I didn`t get to the red point than



near "left" bridge (left point on a map)



M50 to Wales





to intersection with M5





bridge over motorway



30 is not enough



guys near road



and pictures from right bridge (right point on a map) - direction - M5







direction - Wales





random



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Zauvik si tu, u mojim mislima i grudima..

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