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Old December 24th, 2010, 04:08 PM   #1921
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Originally Posted by Uppsala View Post
I think they should renumber this part of A2 to M2 or maybe A2(M). I had used this road and I think this is a motorway.
I agree...it's basically a motorway and I don't know why it isn't the A2(M).
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Old December 24th, 2010, 07:19 PM   #1922
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Most of the A2 between Dartford and the start of the M2 is the original road which has been there for decades or perhaps centuries; it's just been widened and there would be nowhere for non-motorway traffic out of Strood to go if they made it a motorway.

Also, there is some use in having motorway-like roads that aren't quite motorways - it allows people learning to drive to get motorway driving practice, for one thing.
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Old December 24th, 2010, 08:58 PM   #1923
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I agree...it's basically a motorway and I don't know why it isn't the A2(M).
It's the complete opposite from a motorway. Motorway is a legal status in England, not a highway standard. IIRC they ban certain things from the A2 (pedestrians, cyclists, etc), but Motorways ban nothing, they just only allow certain types of things onto them.

I'm pretty sure this has been discussed several times already in this thread already.

Because the A2 is a right of way, you would need alternate access alongside the road for non-allowed vehicles. See the A1(M) from junction 44 to Wetherby - all they did to the road itself was change the signs, and block off a couple of slip roads - most of the work was creating the local access road.
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Most of the A2 between Dartford and the start of the M2 is the original road which has been there for decades or perhaps centuries.
It's part of the Roman Watling Street, so it's been there for a very very long time, but fell out of use, with the road via Gravesend being the main road (I think from coaching days, if not before) - so much so, that the A2 was going to go via Gravesend, but then they decided to rebuild Watling Street, having part of it as a B road, and a gap in the A2 until then.
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Old December 24th, 2010, 09:34 PM   #1924
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What is the difference between roads classified "M123" and the ones like "A123(M)"?
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Old December 24th, 2010, 10:00 PM   #1925
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According to an official document dated 30.9.1959:

“The system described in the previous paragraph (M1, M2 etc.) will apply to long-distance motorways. Where, however, a motorway is merely a by-pass along an existing route such as the Doncaster Bypass along Route A1, it will not be given a separate M number, but in order to make it clear that it is a motorway and that motorway regulations apply to it, the letter M will be added in brackets to the existing route-number - e.g. A1(M) for the Doncaster Bypass. This will preserve the continuity of the route-number of long-distance all-purpose roads. Generally speaking by-passes that are eventually linked to form a continuous motorway will preserve the existing route-number (plus M in brackets) until they are so linked".
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Old December 25th, 2010, 04:55 PM   #1926
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Not all A roads are motorway-like but many could certainly be upgraded, exnpading the network and surely a much cheaper option than building them from nothing.
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Old December 25th, 2010, 05:07 PM   #1927
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Not all A roads are motorway-like but many could certainly be upgraded, exnpading the network and surely a much cheaper option than building them from nothing.
One thing we have to keep in mind when talking of "upgrading" an A road to an M road is that there must be alternative routes available. Even if some A road could be turned to M overnight due to its technical characteristics, it doesn't mean it actually could be done so because there may be no alternative routes left or they would be too inconvenient.

Brtitain does need new motorways and I think there were some sketches posted by some forumers who show it very well. Only thing now is cost. I guess it would cost a fortune and therefore may not be viable. Britain should have built those roads much earlier.
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Old December 25th, 2010, 05:11 PM   #1928
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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
It's the complete opposite from a motorway. Motorway is a legal status in England, not a highway standard. IIRC they ban certain things from the A2 (pedestrians, cyclists, etc), but Motorways ban nothing, they just only allow certain types of things onto them.
Cyclists aren't banned from the A2 (or a similar section of the A3 near Esher in Surrey). I've been on it and if they were banned, there would be signs saying so, but there aren't.

The A2 is just a wide main road.
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Old December 25th, 2010, 07:20 PM   #1929
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
What is the difference between roads classified "M123" and the ones like "A123(M)"?
None, it's A133(M) that's different to A123
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Old December 25th, 2010, 07:46 PM   #1930
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M-roads and A(M) roads are identical in terms of regulations; they are both special roads and only non-slow motor vehicles are admitted. They are both motorways. A(M) roads, as the name implies, usually follow an A-road of the same number, while M-roads (with a few exceptions, particularly in the 2-zone) have their own numbering scheme independent of that for A-roads, so the M5, for example, has nothing to do with the A5.

(In Scotland, though, the M-roads follow A-roads.)
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Old December 26th, 2010, 02:00 AM   #1931
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Thank you. I see between Carlisle and Glasgow athat the M6 changes in A74(M) and then M74 - not very logic.
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Old December 26th, 2010, 05:07 PM   #1932
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
One thing we have to keep in mind when talking of "upgrading" an A road to an M road is that there must be alternative routes available. Even if some A road could be turned to M overnight due to its technical characteristics, it doesn't mean it actually could be done so because there may be no alternative routes left or they would be too inconvenient.

Brtitain does need new motorways and I think there were some sketches posted by some forumers who show it very well. Only thing now is cost. I guess it would cost a fortune and therefore may not be viable. Britain should have built those roads much earlier.
The Southern coastal motorway is the most needed I suppose, and of course you're right about the alternative routes, you shouldn't make people pay a toll fee and deprive them of options.
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Old December 26th, 2010, 08:34 PM   #1933
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Thank you. I see between Carlisle and Glasgow athat the M6 changes in A74(M) and then M74 - not very logic.
That's for historical and political reasons. The M74 was built out of Glasgow southwards, and the A74(M) was started down near Gretna in the 1990s, so they were for years entirely separate, with a long stretch of A74 in between.

The plan may have been to continue the M6 into Scotland, perhaps all the way to Glasgow or perhaps as far as the Edinburgh turning. But then the Scottish parliament was set up and Scottish roads were devolved to the Scottish government, which probably didn't think it logical, or financially justifiable, to renumber the whole motorway, which would necessitate changing the signs for miles around. (There may have been nationalist concerns, as the M6 is an English motorway and would be the longest motorway in Scotland if the M6 was to be numbered all the way to Glasgow.)

One way of ensuring continuity might be to start signing E-routes, as the E5 runs right from Birmigham up the M6, A74(M) and M74 to Glasgow. I don't think there is any likelihood of that, though.
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Old December 26th, 2010, 11:27 PM   #1934
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoJo View Post
That's for historical and political reasons. The M74 was built out of Glasgow southwards, and the A74(M) was started down near Gretna in the 1990s, so they were for years entirely separate, with a long stretch of A74 in between.

The plan may have been to continue the M6 into Scotland, perhaps all the way to Glasgow or perhaps as far as the Edinburgh turning. But then the Scottish parliament was set up and Scottish roads were devolved to the Scottish government, which probably didn't think it logical, or financially justifiable, to renumber the whole motorway, which would necessitate changing the signs for miles around. (There may have been nationalist concerns, as the M6 is an English motorway and would be the longest motorway in Scotland if the M6 was to be numbered all the way to Glasgow.)

One way of ensuring continuity might be to start signing E-routes, as the E5 runs right from Birmigham up the M6, A74(M) and M74 to Glasgow. I don't think there is any likelihood of that, though.
the UK should use E-numbering, especially for instances like this. Ireland uses E numbers and is also an island (further from the European mainland than the UK is).
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Old December 27th, 2010, 12:06 AM   #1935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoJo View Post
That's for historical and political reasons. The M74 was built out of Glasgow southwards, and the A74(M) was started down near Gretna in the 1990s, so they were for years entirely separate, with a long stretch of A74 in between.

The plan may have been to continue the M6 into Scotland, perhaps all the way to Glasgow or perhaps as far as the Edinburgh turning. But then the Scottish parliament was set up and Scottish roads were devolved to the Scottish government, which probably didn't think it logical, or financially justifiable, to renumber the whole motorway, which would necessitate changing the signs for miles around. (There may have been nationalist concerns, as the M6 is an English motorway and would be the longest motorway in Scotland if the M6 was to be numbered all the way to Glasgow.)

One way of ensuring continuity might be to start signing E-routes, as the E5 runs right from Birmigham up the M6, A74(M) and M74 to Glasgow. I don't think there is any likelihood of that, though.
Some signs along the A74(M) and M74 have patches which peel out to show M6 underneath
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Old December 27th, 2010, 03:04 AM   #1936
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M6/A74(M)/M74 is funny. One motorway, three numbers, and only because the Scottish government want to show the Scottish part of the motorway is a Scottish motorway, not an English motorway.

I can understand them a little bit. They want to show its one motorway in two countries. Maybe like for example A10 in Italy when it pass the border to France and change number to A8.
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Old December 27th, 2010, 07:44 AM   #1937
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Except that France and Italy are two separate countries. The UK is more like a federal state like Germany and Switzerland, isn't it?
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Old December 27th, 2010, 12:56 PM   #1938
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoJo View Post
That's for historical and political reasons. The M74 was built out of Glasgow southwards, and the A74(M) was started down near Gretna in the 1990s, so they were for years entirely separate, with a long stretch of A74 in between.
Like the A6/A7 in France, where you have the A6 being built from Paris, and the A7 being built from Marseilles, this is two routes that meet together. The M74 from Glasgow, and the M6 from the south. It's complicated by the A74(M), which was planned as M6, uses M74 junction numbers and is called by a different (temporary) number - A74(M), which gave continuity when it was being built and there were still sections of A74 left.

In fact, France is a bigger offender here - A71 changing into the A75, for instance...
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Originally Posted by Uppsala View Post
M6/A74(M)/M74 is funny. One motorway, three numbers, and only because the Scottish government want to show the Scottish part of the motorway is a Scottish motorway, not an English motorway.
No, it's simply as it's not worth the money to change it. Scotland waited years for the English to finish there bit, and the A74(M) number stuck. It's not "one motorway" anyway, it's two motorways, linked by a joining motorway, each of which with different numbers (except the M74 was extended one junction, as was the M6), to form one route.
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The Southern coastal motorway is the most needed I suppose, and of course you're right about the alternative routes, you shouldn't make people pay a toll fee and deprive them of options.
First, the alternate routes are for keeping access to the property, not to provide a toll-free route (that ought to get the pitchforks out - tolling a pre-existing route without improving it!) - they have a right of way to them, and you can't remove that (Scotland doesn't have this law). It's also needed to keep the route open for not-allowed traffic.

And the Southern Coastal Motorway isn't the most needed by a long shot. Dover - Portsmouth is just as short (distance-wise) via the A3 and M25 (and Southampton is shorter via the M25). I don't think access to Brighton and infra-regional/local traffic along the coast is the countries most needed thing.

That said the A259 needs improvement where it's the main road - Ashford to Hastings is in need of upgrades and Hastings and Bexhill need some form of bypass (doesn't even need to be dual carriageway). The A27 section of the South Coast Trunk route just needs the gaps filled - Chichester sorted out, Arundel bypassed properly, Worthing having some sort of expensive tunnel, Polegate bypass finished - that sort of thing. Plus there's sorting out the problems with the A31 near Poole, as it's terrible!

Last edited by sotonsi; December 27th, 2010 at 01:06 PM.
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Old December 27th, 2010, 01:26 PM   #1939
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No, it's simply as it's not worth the money to change it. Scotland waited years for the English to finish there bit, and the A74(M) number stuck. It's not "one motorway" anyway, it's two motorways, linked by a joining motorway, each of which with different numbers (except the M74 was extended one junction, as was the M6), to form one route.
I'm not sure what you mean by that. The M6 was built long before the A74M was completed.

Up until the late 80's the M74 only went as far south as Kirkmuirhill iirc. From there on the remainder of the road was just a normal dual carriageway A-road until it got to England and linked up with the M6. The M74 was then extended to Abington and then the A74 was upgraded to the A74M in sections to what is now the M6-A74M-M74.

Even though there was a part of what is now the M6 which wasn't designated as a motorway, everything needed for it to be changed overnight from A to M was already in place. It wasn't until the A74M was finally completed that this section was re-designated as a motorway.
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Old December 27th, 2010, 02:56 PM   #1940
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I'm not sure why you think I said that from that quote. However, I will say that the M6 was built to meet the A74(M) after the A74(M) was completed - the A74(M) was completed in 1999, and the M6 was completed in 2008 (50 years to the day after the first section opened) - OK it stretched from the M1 to the A74 a long time before that.

The A74 in England needed a lot of work to upgrade it from D2 road with intermittent shoulders and a couple of dodgy local junctions to a 'motorway-standard' D3 road - including a new Metal Bridge over the Esk. And of course, there was no local access road, so you couldn't change it from M to A overnight until that happened. There was also a lot of dallying (I think Transport Scotland chipped some money in to get the HA to build it).

The, busier, English section of the A74 motorway upgrade took 9 years longer - not because they were waiting for the road to the north to be finished before resigning it, but because upgrading the road wasn't a high priority, whereas it was for those north of the border. If it opened in the 90s, then we'd not have the A74(M), and perhaps not the M74.

The Scottish office (or whatever it's called today) have no plans to renumber the motorway, even where it's just removing patches off signs, due to the cost. That most people won't notice the number change at all, a large amount will think that it just changes number from M6 to M74 at the border and a large amount of people who spot that it has three numbers either completely apathetic, like the quirkiness of it, or don't care enough for the change to be reasonable.
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